Episode 770 - Grand Master James Cox

Grand Master James Cox is a Martial Arts Practitioner and Instructor at Premier Martial Arts in Texas.

When you go into another school you can have that white belt mindset. That purity, that innocence. Then you’re open to being a sponge.

Grand Master James Cox - Episode 770

Grand Master James Cox has been teaching full-time for over 3 decades, and he feels his professional career is to empower lives through the martial arts by building complete well-rounded Black Belts. In over a 25-year period, James competed in an average of 25 tournaments a year and fought more than 1,800 sport karate point fights in more than 600 tournaments, placing in the top three at every tournament. James was also undefeated for many years and won countless Grand Championships. He retired with a sanctioned full-contact kickboxing record of 11 wins and 2 losses with two National middleweight titles and won several unsanctioned boxing and MMA fights.

James regularly performs demonstrations, as well as motivational speaking, and teaches seminars for all types of organizations. He says that one of the most rewarding things about being an instructor is the ability to pass on the lifelong benefits of Martial Arts with the tools to succeed as they were handed to him so many years ago.

In this episode, Grand Master James Cox talks about his lifelong journey to the Martial Arts that started when a girl he liked invited him to the dojo. Grand Master Cox also shares the origins of Kajukembo and the moment he started teaching. Listen to learn more!

Show notes

You may check out Grand Master James Cox's Bio and School on his website.

Show Transcript

Jeremy Lesniak:

Welcome everyone, you're listening to whistlekick martial arts radio, Episode 770. With today's guest Grandmaster James Cox. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host for the show founder of whistlekick, where everything we do is in support of traditional martial arts. Go to whistle kick.com That's where you'll find everything we're doing. And the code PODCAST15 is going to get you 15% off almost anything there, from the fun to the practical. Everything for the show is on a different website, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. The goal of the show and of whistle kick overall is to connect, educate and entertain traditional martial artists worldwide. If you want to support the work that we do, there are lots of ways you can do that. You could make a purchase, tell a friend about us or join our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick, you get in for just two bucks a month at five, you're gonna get a bonus audio episode $10 bonus video, and it just goes on from there. Our biggest fans know that by checking in at whistlekick.com/family. Every week gives them the most authentic behind-the-scenes and free experience with whistlekick so check that out. Grandmaster James Cox came up in Kajukenbo in the 70s. And I really enjoyed some of the stories he told in the early days. But there's a recurring theme here. And it's about change as it relates to growth. And I think you'll hear it as he talks us through his martial arts life, which let's just say the man's been deep into training and passion about arts for a very long time. Thanks for being here. I appreciate your time. I had a lot of fun coming to your show. And I'm looking forward to that coming out because it was a different kind of conversation than I'm used to having

Grand Master James Cox:

I enjoyed it as well. So it should be a couple of weeks, man, I will send you all the information and will blast it out.

Jeremy Lesniak:

 I'm used to that I'm used to being on this side. I don't get to be the guest very often, which is okay. You know, I'm far more comfortable being in this seat than then making it about me. Right. Like, you're and this is about you today. And we're not all comfortable doing that.

Grand Master James Cox:

You're right. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So the place I want to start is a little bit different than we normally start normally start with how did you get started? But I want to start and we'll get there quickly, I expect. But I want to start by talking about Kajukembo. Because Kajukembo was one of these arts that I feel has had a resurgence and a bit of what I would call a false resurgence, there are a lot of people out there that I think they're teaching and training Kajukembo. But my understanding from talking to folks like John Hackleman and a few of the others that we've had on the show is that there's a spirit to Kajukembo that's a little bit different from other martial arts and I'll pass the baton to you.

Grand Master James Cox:

Yeah, definitely. No, I think you're exactly right. Kajukembo is known as what was created as the first American mixed martial arts. But then when you hear mixed martial arts and the term today you just think UFC fighter, and all of a sudden just start thinking, combat sport, Brazilian jujitsu was maybe Muay Thai, and that's MMA. So but we were saying mixed martial arts way before that was ever a term, the traditional aspects of Kajukembo, the traditional forms, and self-defense moves. So very similar to Kimbo a lot of memorized drills and patterns and punch attacks and grab attacks and knife and club attacks and defenses. You don't see a whole lot of that in schools as much anymore, even though they're calling into Kajukembo but our founder CFO, Adriana Imperato was very clear on the vision that we should evolve. And that was the founding concept of it. So I think you are teaching Kajukembo you just doing what your division laid out is for us to evolve, to improve, and then to find out what times 

He brought up a lot of points early on with some interviews you can find with a Broto of like the cars, in other words, you're not going to see some antique model a Model T on Interstate, just zoom and pass the new. Tesla's and right Range Rovers and all of that stuff and just like the automobile needed to evolve, if it's for convenience, modernization more application, then we should do the same as long as you do keep your basic routes the same. I can look at people from afar and tell if they were kind of training. Yeah, they're Kajukenbo based. I use the term Kajukenbo based because we're  Kajukenbo based and we're still Kajukenbo but we do Krav Maga, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and Muay Thai, and I think that's perfectly okay. I think that's what was endorsed.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's funny when we look back at most of the originators or collectors or whatever we would use for the originators of a style. Most of them seem to say the same thing that Imperato said, don't take what I'm giving you and just put a box around it and never change it. And yet, here we are, in many of these arts decades later, saying, Well, this is what they did so we have to do this. It seems freeing that it's so understood and Kajukenbo.

Grand Master James Cox:

I think there's got to be some basis that is tradition if you will. That are trademarks, but maybe they aren't. if it's rubbed, the civets, the black uniforms, the excessive growing shots, and the hard training are even some of the ways we may salute valley and the salutations patterns, just certain traditions of the art that should kind of stay for opening with our Kajukenbo terminology or Kajukenbo prayer models and creeds and things like that. I think that at least connects you to oh, yes. Kajukenbo.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I got it.No, when you started training, you started in Kajukenbo.

Grand Master James Cox:

Yes, Sir. I was 15 years old way back in the days and 1985. And I found Patrick McDaniel. We were under Richard Peralta. At the time, who was under like Reyes to Adriana Broto? So, up in the lineage of Kajukenbo, more of the hardline Kimbo based, where you see more of that you see a lot less of some of the other arts but we were able to incorporate that. So that's what I started. I mean, it's not like I knew the difference. I was looking for martial arts. So I just found it, found that and I'm glad I did. Man, I'm blessed that I started with a good instructor, somebody that really empowered me and showed me that difference at that age when I needed it the most.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And I think that the age is the place that I want to pick out for a moment, you don't see a lot of 15-year-olds starting back then write it because 15 was legally not an adult. So you had a lot of schools that would say, come back in three years, maybe 16, maybe 17 but you're 15. Most people are physically close to adults but mentally and emotionally, just maturity is not there. So did you do the school you find teaches kids or were you the youngest one in the room?

Grand Master James Cox:

So that's what kind of answers the question of why a 15-year-old man started martial arts and, one word it was a girl. So yeah, I was in the neighborhood. And I needed it for a lot more than that, of course, but there were some friends of mine that I started hanging out with who were playing basketball, my age brother and sister. And I would see them on the basketball court doing their Katas. I didn't know what anything was doing in martial arts. And of course, the girl was cute. And I wanted to talk to her. So I tried to slowly go talk to her like a 15-year-old with, probably not much gang, right? But she invited me to martial art school. So she invited me I was gonna go.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Of course.

Grand Master James Cox:

Right? So that's why I really started to be honest because I didn't know what I was getting into. And then I fell in love with it and stayed and it definitely changed my life. When you see today, martial arts schools, it is predominantly eight to 12-year-olds that dominate the market. And of course, back in time, when so many things have happened from Hollywood to things that are going on in the world, that drug certain groups or ages into the martial arts, but you didn't see a lot of teenagers? Well, we had a strong group. But to be honest, this was a lot of trouble teams, man. And the area that I lived in could have been almost like a movie saying the karate school was a recreation center. So we were there anyway, like I said, either playing basketball or getting in trouble. 

And they were doing martial arts on the side and then there was another room. At that time,  that's where my instructor was teaching is that at a local recreation center on the north side, but not so good side of Abilene. And, man, he did great things with these kids, I was one of them. So that's why we try to pay forward now with what we do just the life-changing benefits that you see the martial arts. And that's what I experienced early on when I noticed kids that were my age that I hung out with that, did it follow either the girl to go try martial arts or whatever reason? Well, they followed other things, and most of them got in trouble. And, man, several are either dead or in prison and that very well could have been me.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I want to ask about your parents in a moment before I do. Did you get the girl?

Grand Master James Cox:

Yeah, we remained as real good friends, we're still friends today.

Jeremy Lesniak:

To remain friends through that duration. Probably a better roll of the dice than

Grand Master James Cox:

100% 

Jeremy Lesniak:

100% thing getting together, then that's. 

Grand Master James Cox:

We became family, that group of class, and trying to look back man probably was 20 students, only 30 students, good students hardcore. I mean, he trained us like, my instructor to train you didn't matter your age trade, you're pretty much the same. I feel I saw him train eight-year-olds, just like a 30-year-old. And we became a definitely extended family, and friends, traveling weekends together to tournaments and building those relationships. And like I said, still today, 38 years later, we're still friends.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Where is that bond come from? You have a school now, right? Like you have a studio. And I would imagine that you try to foster that relationship among your students because let's face it, the tighter people are, the less likely they are to leave. So it's a good thing for everyone. What was it about? You said there was a group of 20 of you that bonded. Was it just because you were all there? And it was something new? Or was it more than that?

Grand Master James Cox:

I think what happens is you get vulnerable and you find yourself through a lot of struggles when you're training hard, at least. So, if you want to call it blood, sweat, and tears, or just a struggle of holding a course stance for 10-15 minutes, or seemed a lot longer at least. And traveling together, road trips, man, road trips make the difference. And you just build relationships and go through bigger things. It's an amazing martial arts training seminar with celebrity martial artists that you got to experience together. That's what happened with us, I remember us traveling to conventions, and a lot of this was pre-Internet, and being able to train with people that we saw, or heard about maybe in magazines, and stories and things like that 

And so that, that just build a stronger relationship. And let's just stay there together. And then we'll get into the big things like your black belt test, or prepping for that, Junior black belt or whatever, Black Belt trial candidate practice, boot camp, whatever people call it nowadays. Going through that together and our instructor had us do, things like projects, I mean, if it was reading a certain book and doing written word on it, or it was telling the history of our martial arts style and other martial arts styles, then we spent time together studying. We spent time together laughing and crying, and I think we just became closer, and is a weird thing, because we were sometimes each other's best, toughest competitors, we even had to compete against each other, at events, because a lot of us were the same age and the same divisions.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What I'm hearing is that it wasn't just about the time on the floor, it was about the time doing a variety of things and building that bond in different ways. So that makes sense. I can see that right? I suspect we have some people nodding, saying that makes sense. But your parents, so at 15, I suspect that you probably weren't living on your own at that point. Some people are emancipated, but that wasn't you? I'm guessing.

Grand Master James Cox:

No, but I was with my single mom. My father passed away when I was 13. So that was a couple of years- about a year and a half or so after I started martial arts, and I think it was, for a lot of reasons that I really needed it. Losing my dad at an early age, and then my mom tried her best, but it was hard because I'm the youngest of seven. A few of my siblings were gone. They were married with kids and gone before I was even around. So with a large family spread out, it was tough on my mom. And we struggled but martial arts definitely made it made a difference. That became my first job. So I was 17 years old, and I was teaching at the YMCA as a brown belt. And that was my first paid gig.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Did mom have any reservations about your training or teaching? You're hanging out with this, super violent group of people that punch each other.

Grand Master James Cox:

She did at first just because she didn't understand it. But she saw the differences. And she, she was my biggest supporter, my biggest fan. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Cool. Did she go to competitions?

Grand Master James Cox:

She did to a couple of those and it scared her. So she did to a few early on, and then she didn't like to see that.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Sparring in the 70s was a whole different ballgame. 

Grand Master James Cox:

Yeah. Little to no pads sometimes. Sometimes without it was those. Remember we first started we had those jewelry pads. It was very thin, right? And, good stuff, though. Man. I'm glad I went through it.

Jeremy Lesniak:

So you brought us up to 17 brown belt teaching and helping at the school. What's the next milestone on the journey?

Grand Master James Cox:

I just kept competing and then went from sport to karate, we would go to the karate tournaments in Texas was big with tournaments. I mean, we could compete every weekend if we wanted to. And sometimes if we did, or at least it felt like it, there was an average, some years 35 tournaments. That's a lot of tournaments a lot, a lot of weekends. That's why started getting into full contact. So I found a boxing coach because I always wanted to do some boxing. And we were doing the American kickboxing, pKa type stuff, waist-up kickboxing. So I started competing in that that was definitely a different animal. 

But it was having a good boxing coach that was hardcore. And the thing about my boxing coach is that we're in an Air Force town. So he was he came through here, and he was on the Air Force boxing team. He was a US Olympic alternate fighter trained with a lot of top names, but this dude was so different than my martial arts instructor. I mean, is his religion, his belief was boxing, nothing else mattered. All you need is this even early on. He would tell me things like James, you don't need that karate crap. You just need this. You need these four punches and that's it. 

I respected his boxing so much and I know that I needed it because of my first couple of kickboxing fights. I was a good kicker I had the speed at the timing but man I couldn't understand those hands right because we didn't box your back fist reverse punch rich hands don't work the same against jab cross hook in a boxing ring, so I respected whatever. Jesse came to tell me and followed and did it but definitely martial arts. I saw it turned him around as far as he gained the respect because he would corner my fights and he would straight up tell me you do whatever you want with those kicks. I'm just going to coach your boxing. I said Yes, sir. And so getting into boxing was a big change. After doing martial arts. I continue doing martial arts. I continue in both sometimes I've competed in a karate tournament one weekend, a kickboxing fight the next weekend, and a boxing smoker the next weekend. That was a challenge like okay, am I having shoes on? Do I kick? What are the rules?

Jeremy Lesniak:

What are the rules today?

Grand Master James Cox:

Right, right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

There are a lot of people coming to the show, plenty more who haven't that, I'd like to go do this for a little bit. I'd like to compete over here. I'd like to try kickboxing. The word try doesn't sound like the right word for you. This sounds like something that you are so completely immersed in, in every way you could this was mean, you talked about your boxing coach, boxing was his religion that sounds like training and competing, whereas your religion

Grand Master James Cox:

It was with teaching, what I mean? So it's still, and there were a lot of times early on. I mean, I didn't learn how to teach, I had to learn how to teach a little bit of the hard way because I was so young, my instructor was one of those that amazing and again, I'm so blessed to have found out but he worked a full-time job. So he worked from eight to six or whatever. And then he did the martial arts class in the evening. And then it got to where I think he had changed jobs. And he was going to be late for class. And he would call me up and say like, Man, I'm going to be late today. Can you teach that first class for me? I'll get there as soon as I can. And of course, I'd say yes sir but I had no teaching skills or ability. So I was immersed in competing and that was a big part of my life. I mean, I'm glad because it kept me out of trouble and following where a lot of my other friends went. Because instead of me being out doing things I shouldn't be doing. When the doors closed. I stayed for another two hours stretching and training and kicking and punching. I did a lot of training by myself.  I did a whole lot of training by myself for sure. And yeah, man, it was busy. I think I maybe didn't realize at the time how much of my life that it was.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Would you change that would you've gone and said, Oh, I wish I was a little more versatile? And did this thing over here?  I'm getting the sense that just stacking the hours did you go to school after high school?

Grand Master James Cox:

No, actually it is a funny story though, I started teaching at a college, which was very unique and rare for someone without a teaching degree, a master's degree, or whatever. And I was a professor at that time. I was a professor in Kajukenbo martial arts. So I endorse my certificate and my title, I was a professor in college, and I taught for six years at a major university. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Wow. Isn’t the club?

Grand Master James Cox:

No, as a college professional - education professor

Jeremy Lesniak:

Oh, cool. 

Grand Master James Cox:

In physical education, we taught self-defense and kickboxing. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay. 

Grand Master James Cox:

I haven't heard anyone before even after they've been able to do that, but I got in. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I gotta tell you the only other person I know who ran an academic, academically graded martial arts program is Dr. Jerry Beasley.

Grand Master James Cox:

Yeah, I had to construct a lot of craft. I had to come up with a syllabus and how to teach college students. And it was one of the most popular classes. I mean, when it opened registration, it was full immediately. But what sounded better martial arts or bowling? Do you know? So it was pretty cool. I believe in it.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And how old were you when you were doing this?

Grand Master James Cox:

I was teaching there. I was probably mid-20s.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay, so kind of your college experience at the same time, being around folks, that so you said six years, it ended likely meant you went on to do something else? And what was that?

Grand Master James Cox:

I put a lot of focus in my martial arts school at that time, because, I had a successful martial arts school, as far as a lot of students, a lot of good quality of students, I just didn't have the business sense to be successful financially with it. It's kind of funny, I probably had as many students 20 years ago, as I do today. But I was broke, then I just didn't understand business systems are revenue generators, and how to be successful in the martial arts. 

And I just wanted the students to train hard, and I still do that, but we have to keep the doors open and livelihood. So what happened, big differences that I started reaching out to consulting companies and businesses and went into different things, from United professionals to Maya to Premier Martial Arts, to kind of learn how to structure a martial arts school, and do all the little things that make a big difference, because you're not taught that when you're taught, a roundhouse kick or back fist, right? That's been martial art students, it doesn't teach you the systems that you need to run a business and become an entrepreneur.

Jeremy Lesniak:

We've said it often on this show, martial arts is the only thing I'm aware of where we think learning how to do equates to learning how to teach. And there are some people who can translate that out. But it's such a different skill set, as is anybody listening? Who has taught before knows it's such a different understanding, a different experience? It's a different skill set. And it makes sense that finding some help in that way is created some success.

Grand Master James Cox:

Matt had a strong enough passion and my deeper why and purpose. That's what I wanted to do. So I was self-aware enough to notice my weaknesses. And it was in the martial arts, it wasn't the teaching, it was the business sense. So,  I think it's important if you kind of know what you have to find out what might be your weaknesses, and whether you go all in on it, or not.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Absolutely. What's changed in your school? Not so much the systems but let's talk and I'd like to talk about the culture for a while because you talked about this really impassioned and interesting culture. When you started these 20 folks that you were super tight with, after a short time. What is it about the culture of your school now that you've brought forward that is intentional, that you're proud of?

Grand Master James Cox:

We still have a tight group, there are just bigger numbers. And we have two locations in the city. So I try to spend half my time at one and a half the time on my other so there are a lot more people to get to know. I think, a genuine culture. Just still understand that the quality of the martial arts is what's most important. It's not just what you do, it's how you do it. And training strong, I think is a good part of the culture. We pride ourselves on that and creating good black belts without a big rush, right? We want black belts that want to continue training after promotion. That's always a little bit of a challenge. But I think the culture is one of understanding a variety of aspects of training, the mixed martial art concept not being limited to one thing. The experience and the focus on the details so we're detail-oriented. And I think that's an important thing that my students know that they're going to throw a left hook, they can't drop their right hand, they're going to throw a kick, how's the form of the foot? So to not overlook some of those details? Like, it's easy to do.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Let's talk about that second location for a minute. Because it's something that a lot of schools try to do. And I have a saying, I do some consulting, both in and outside of martial arts. And I tell people, when you open a second location, you go in thinking that it's going to double your work. And I think it's so much more than that. I think it's Forex because things that you thought, were good here, you didn't realize they were good, because you were there all the time. All these things pop up, what was that experience of deciding to and opening up? And having opened a second location? 

Grand Master James Cox:

We were pretty maxed out of our location. So it was either to start putting people on waiting lists, doing some things like that are moved to a bigger building. And I didn't, I've kind of learned that bigger is not really better. The whole mega martial arts school is not really a good business model, you got the overhead. And if you and theories like man, we'll just run two classes at once. We'll have this class over here. But now, someone calls in sick or this or that staff, its staff is typically the biggest challenge. So our school was doing well. And I felt it was a time instead of expanding to open another location and, and close it up. But another area, I mean, it's only 15 minutes away, but it's a different area of town. And the good thing is that we were able to improve on things that we have learned through the experiences at the other school, right? And the biggest thing was to keep it simple -a smaller school, what do you need?

Why do you not need to stop just getting crap in your school just because you felt like you needed a pull-up bar and additional medicine ball or something you found that you saw that looked cool. Just keeping things functional? Simple for what you really need, and so that was the good thing is that we're able to so fresh, just kind of start over a new. 

And then the challenge is it is finding yourself in more places and more work and just continuing to do things of old schools meant a lot of times it's like living in, in two different houses. And then you have your house. So you have three locations you live that, I can't tell you the time I drive over on the south side, I'm like, oh, man, I forgot my belt over there, this or that? right? So just that is a little bit more to keep up with and then just the staff challenges, of course, but overall, I think the pros outweigh the cons because we're able to impact more people's life. That's it, I'd rather help 600 people than 300 why not? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

For sure. Did you have like a number to like a deputy? Before you open that second school? Was there somebody that you could point to and say, This person can pick up all the slack? Can you tell us a bit about that person?

Grand Master James Cox:

I think you always need someone you can delegate to, and I prefer to have people that I raised in the martial arts versus hiring outside. It's common now to put ads out and just hired martial artists anywhere, and I've done it and I may have to do it again. But if I can find someone that I raised, meaning they were my white, and yellow and orange, and purple, and blue, and green, and brown, blackbelt, then they know our terminology, our jargon, we know the little things that we do that are unique, right? 

They're not coming in with someone else's terminology. And I'm not even saying it's right or wrong. It's just different. So we're speaking the same language, in other words, and I had a kid that started when he was 10 years old and similar to me, and that was young, but he started because he was just a handful. And he was raised by his grandparents, and he was getting in trouble already. And they didn't want to put them on medicine for ADHD and all of these things. So martial arts changed his life in the same ways. He was so busy, but he found something that he had a passion for. 

He just had a lot of energy and moved fast. And this gave them something that he could give back to as well. And that was one of the people and I had another guy too that I was able to trust. I think that's the big word because no one's gonna do it quite like you. If it's your business and you're the owner, you're a little bit more invested and a little bit deeper than someone else. But if you can find someone who in similar ways, you feel I have your same passion and belief, then I think you develop enough trust. So I had a couple of guys that had enough trust and because they were long-term, a lifelong martial artist, and I think we saw through a lot of the same eyes.

Jeremy Lesniak:

The man that started when he was 10. When did you know that there was enough there? Like, I can see a future for him? I'm guessing it was a way before you actually started implementing him in that role. Did you see it? Do you see something as he was coming up? 

Grand Master James Cox:

Yeah, the typical signs. The first one, their last one to leave, right? The one that comes up and you're demonstrating a self-defense mode, you don't even have to look around. He's raising his hand, he always wants to be the Wookiee the dummy, right, the partner to demonstrate on and didn't miss the events, if it was a seminar, demonstration, tournament, or if it was staying late and cleaning the mats, things like that, and I didn't necessarily have to ask. So I think I saw it when I saw the above-and-beyond things, right?

And being there for one another, and then slowly, doing a warm-up to then doing a drill too then teaching a class. And then finally, where I could leave the buildings, there's a difference in having someone teach a class and the chief instructor the owners inside of the building because you're looking, they know you're looking, you can step on the mat, you can always take over. But when you're out of the building, besides some cameras or whatever, they're in control. So it took a lot for me to leave the building and leave an instructor taking care of the classes and then moving on to while I'm going for a couple of days to where oh, man, I'm gone for the week, you got it. And that was a hard thing. Imagine, leaving your baby with the babysitter. And that's a similar feeling leaving your martial arts school because that is your life, with someone else, your reputation, there are a lot of things that can go wrong in a martial arts school. And there are a lot of things that can go right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

One of the most, I think challenging elements of opening a school or being invested in a school, having multiple locations, is how that changes your relationship with your own training. As someone who was all in is the only phrase I can think of with training and just being a martial artist in every way you could define it. Competing and training and teaching and then owning a school. What happened as you became deeper as an instructor, as a teacher, with your own training?

Grand Master James Cox:

And I even tell the staff, man, I want to be open and honest. I mean, it's easy for your martial arts training to go to the back burner. It's easy for it when you start working at a martial arts school. And doesn't that sound so crazy? Because a young instructor thinks that's the life man, I can do martial arts for a living, I can play karate every day, right? But no matter if you're teaching, depending on the academy, that you're at 4,5,6 classes a day, if you're working from three to 9:30 on the mat, maybe you come in at 11 or one o'clock, I think you're putting in eight or nine hours a day, as a martial arts professional than your training can take the backburner early on, I use my students a lot that seems a little selfish, but I use my students a lot because I would find the most advanced students I had, even if they weren't black belts, and we would have special classes. And sometimes they were my sparring partners. 

But of course, it helped them to know it had helped them too, and then I would have to travel to find people that were as good or better than me so that I could continue my training. It is a little bit harder. One thing that I was able to do is branch out to something different. I mean, I still will travel at times an hour and a half away to do Brazilian jujitsu. I have a Brazilian jujitsu instructor then in another town. So that gives me some other goals and incentives and man what a feeling to walk into a school and just be a student. 

That took me a while I remember going into school and the phone would ring and I would almost by habit try to get somebody walks in the door and greet them right like let me give you some information on our classes, the toilet overflows, I don't have to go and fix it. I can just be in school and be a student. When you're in your own school. You can't do that man. As I said I had to get a lot of my best training when classes were done. Doors were locked, you either come in early or stay lap late when no one else is there. But even then again, the phone rings, a salesman comes to the door, you notice something is broken or you want to. So it can be a challenge, I think it's just back to having enough discipline to separate that. But I care so much about my business, that it's hard not to focus on it when you're in it. So like the whole business concept, there's a difference between work and your business and then working on your business.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Absolutely. And what you're talking about with training elsewhere in a different art in a different town? So you can be a student, I like to call it, being a white belt again. You're never really a white belt, but you can play white belt and be in the back of the room and have no responsibilities. And no one expects you to know anything. And if there's a question and you don't know the answer, that's not only okay, it's what's supposed to happen because you're in the back of the road is my favorite place to be. Because of the complete lack and I'm curious if you're experiencing this because there is no expectation, it provides the most freedom for learning, you can just open up and just ingest all of it as a snake dislodged. You give me all of it. 

Grand Master James Cox:

Students ask you a question, and you have to know an answer. I mean again, you could and you should probably say  I'm not sure about that, but I'll get back to you. But most of the strikers aren't going to they're going to have a politician answer, they're going to be around the bush and find, find something for the students. But when you go into another school, you can have that white belt mindset, that purity that innocence. And then you're open to being a sponge to accept it. And see and amend, there are so many things, you might say the same thing that this other instructor said, but they just said it in a different way where all of a sudden a light bulb goes on, it gives you a new analogy. It gives you a new way. I mean, this is we started off talking about Kajukembo and we're just the smack Kajukembo stills whatever works, and I still do that if this works this saying this technique, this method, this approach that I want to take it and I want to use it as well.

Jeremy Lesniak:

How do you handle it? Let's say one of your students comes to you and also wants to go train BJJ at this other school that you're at, or maybe a different one someplace out of town. What's your approach to that? How do you handle that?

Grand Master James Cox:

That's a tough one. And that's actually just recently happened at my school? Look, if someone is offering something that you can't, I mean, what can you say, you could always start by trying to remind them of the benefits and the value of your school, but you don't own this person. You can't say they can't go here, go there. If you owned a restaurant, you would love for them to love your food better than any other place in town. And you know what? Cook a better dish and be the best restaurant in town. But if there's a personal preference, and they prefer this other type of food on the other side of town, it's similar to martial arts. So we teach a variety. Okay, here's where I wouldn't necessarily agree with that. If they're going somewhere that is teaching, the same thing we're teaching can a lot of times just be confusing because they have their favorite. Well, this is the way we do it here. And then the instructor, the student is just learning too much. There's a such thing as knowing too much, where you just don't have enough to apply. But if it's something somewhere else that you just can't offer, then, I mean, you got to be the bigger man, I guess and swallow that pride. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

What if they want to cross-train? What if it's someone who wants to remain training, Kajukembo and they say, Hey, you know, I want to go do BJJ as well.

Grand Master James Cox:

And you don't teach BJJ at your school, then? Yeah, I think you got to support it. As much as you may not want to, because I don't know, the city you're at, but in most martial arts cities, or schools or martial arts schools are, they don't quite get along, and there's a lot of egos, there's a lot of pride. There's a lot of competition. And some people would do it at tournaments, especially events, where an instructor tries to steal students, you see people pull that slide and some business cards, collecting phone numbers from your students. Fighting is a dirty business. That was one thing that my boxing coach told me, I mean, he said the words he used is that it's an ass business. He said you're either kicking it or kissing it. And so that the problem is if you have other schools that you just guys are competing against, and there's too much pride and they're trying to steal each other students then you might run into some drama. Now it's all such a lot of social media, they're posting, and he wants somebody posting. Well, here's a student that came in from this school, and now he's training with us. People do some shady stuff, man. If you can't offer it to your students, and they have a passion for it somewhere else, then you should support that. If you're doing it, they don't need to go to the other school, or they need to choose and go to one. You don't go to two taekwondo schools. That doesn't seem to make sense unless you're just cross-training and sparring with somebody, but not as a student. You should have some loyalty, right?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Absolutely. And there are always exceptions. You could say, well, what if you're kind of living in between two schools, and they're affiliated and they do stuff more or less the same? And one does classes Mondays, and Wednesdays, the other do Tuesdays and Thursdays, like, you can make a case for that, for sure. It’s more training, I really liked the analogy you made with food, and that really hit home, that makes a lot of sense. This idea helps people find the meal and the training that works best for them. And I like that you've brought up this competition because here's the thing I've never understood. If we look percentage-wise, the vast majority of people are not actively training in martial arts. 

Grand Master James Cox:

Right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

If schools instead of fighting over scraps, banded together, took out group advertising, on the radio and in newspapers and on TV and billboards and flyers and said, Hey, we're all friends. Do you come to this school for this or this school for this or this school for this? And like, really, as a group attacked the 95% of the population that wasn't training. Everybody would win. Everybody would have more students.

Grand Master James Cox:

But the perfect world, right? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's right. 

Grand Master James Cox:

When my instructor left town, he moved and I took over kind of what he started and then just built on that. That was one of my first visions because we would have our annual tournaments. And I would always wonder, why don't any of the other schools come to our tournament? So if there are 6, 8, or 10 martial arts schools in your town, and everyone that's supporting your tournament is from out of town with that don't mix it. And I remember my instructor didn't say a lot, but he was like, yeah, they're not going to do it, Zack, well, that's weird. So I walked into every school. I introduced myself, shook hands, and I gave tournament flyers. I tried to build a relationship. And he was right. None of them showed up.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's a fear mindset, we put on events. And I've experienced the same thing. And it's sad to say that, I live up here in Vermont, and we received the least support from Vermont. Of all the things that we don't even have a school. And we still receive the least support. 

Grand Master James Cox:

Right, from our local area which is a trend right? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

The trend is egos. The trend is that someone's not the hero in their eyes.

Grand Master James Cox:

There's a lot of ego and belt and rank, but that's everywhere. I made that stereotypes of a police officer and attorney, where there's a little power rank and title, where you're getting literally bow to things like that, that it can go to your head. All right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

When we do events, we have people put on name tags, and I don't say I never say what people have to put on the name tags, but I and the staff, we always just put first names. And we see what happens. You get some people who struggle and I can see them, I watch out a corner my I watch them writing out that nametag going. Everybody just has their first name, but this is a martial arts event. And there's an interesting filter that occurs they're the people who really want to list out a bunch of titles on a two-by-three sticker. I don't tend to show up again.

Grand Master James Cox:

I went to a seminar once in Dallas Richard Balto was teaching and some other things were going on. But he made a point by when everyone came in, he had him not put their belts on. And we did a good four-hour seminar and there it was mostly black belts. But no one had the belt on and then of course he talked about that he took his belt off to is like, Hey, man, we all put our pants on the same way one leg at a time. That was a say that he had and it was just, you know, let's shut up and train. We're here to train and it doesn't worry. You no matter about who's this rank or that rank, or somebody that will correct someone else because they didn't call them to see Gong or Grandmaster and we got to make them draw up and do push-ups. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

For me, it's about the intent. You can't demand respect. You can ask for respectful gestures, but they can still be done with what you don't know. You don't control that person's thinking in their head. I've certainly bowed to people that I do not want at my dinner table.

Grand Master James Cox:

Right, that's a shame. I've taught some little kids, let's say a five-year-old and I want to teach them some life skills. That's a strong thing in Texas to say Yes, sir. No, sir. Yes, ma'am. No, ma'am. And I've found some ways to do it where I address my sir. I address them as male. And whenever I had a kid saying, I'm not a Sir, I'm a boy. And I explained to him, but I respect you. And I want to call you, Sir. But before I know it, then they're calling me sir. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

You're modeling the behavior.

Grand Master James Cox:

Exactly.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Regardless of rank, regardless of experience, you are willing to lead instead of push. And I think it's such a different dynamic. And I would imagine that if we dug into, not that it's this kind of a show, but if we dug into your retention numbers, they will reflect that, that you are a leader, and you're willing to be out in front.

Grand Master James Cox:

Lead by example. It's not always easy.

Jeremy Lesniak:

No, if it was easy, everybody would do it. 

Grand Master James Cox:

All right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What's coming down the pipe? What's keeping you excited? What are you building towards training? And anything like that? Let's talk about the future.

Grand Master James Cox:

So, I miss competing and at my age, I don't need any more head trauma. So boy, fighting kickboxing, boxing, contact sport like that. And I've done enough of it. So getting more into Brazilian Jujitsu, which is so different man. It's a culture of its own. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's really fascinating.

Grand Master James Cox:

And just so detailed, and there are so many different levels, I mean, of Brazilian jujitsu. And so I've competed a few times there this last year, and want to continue some with that even started some bodybuilding of all things, and never in my life would have ever thought that's something I would do. But just, I was training at a gym, and our friend talked to me, and these are things that just gave me other incentives to continue training and finding a way to compete because I miss competing. But I think my time is done. And those specific aspects. I mean, I could still do it, but why do some Spartan Races, I've never done those things in my life. So all this age, so just trying some new and different things, to push my own limits and to stretch things out and, and have fun is in different ways. 

Those struggles and challenges are pretty cool. And you bond with different people just like it early on with the martial arts team that I've traveled with to find out a little bit different culture of Spartan Races, bodybuilding, and Jujitsu tournaments. Other than that, my focus is on my students and my school. And right now we have a black belt test. So we typically will do one Blackbelt example year, I do it every December. So depending on who I have, that is eligible and prepared. And that's always an exciting thing. It's like the goal of an overall pound-for-pound, how can you make the next generation of your black belts better? And better in different ways? Because I don't think no one's going to be as tough as my early black belts were they were just rough and rugged and tough, because that's kind of how we trained and taught. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's what you expected of them, I imagine.

Grand Master James Cox:

But we got some differences. Now, my guys are more versatile with a variety of training, and also educated because I spend more time now on hey, tell me the history of Krav Maga. Where did the present jujitsu come from? What can you tell me about taekwondo? And so they do some research, they do some speech and public speaking, what a fear for so many people. But then I hear

Jeremy Lesniak:

Number one fear in western culture. 

Grand Master James Cox:

So we make these students we encourage, we help we go over some of these ways to be better communicators. I mean, I still need to work on it myself. And it makes big differences in their life. So I hear back from when the younger kid went to college or even the adult and how they were able to get a better career through an interview process or build a relationship from ways that they were forced to communicate in front of somebody. So to get on a microphone at a big belt graduation and talk to 500,000 people about the history of judo. I mean, it does a lot more for you than just that, but you're also educated on what you're doing. I've run into some people and maybe I'm fascinated by the style. Have you noticed that? I haven't quite heard about that. What is Kyokushinkai? Can you tell me more about it as a black belt, and they're like, they don't know anything, the history of their style. So that's something that we do that my instructor did to us. And I'm excited about building future black belts, I think that's the best answer to your question. Building future black belts and finding ways to make them a little bit better than the last generation, even though it's gonna be different.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Now, here's a tough question that I recognize I'm kind of putting you on the spot with this one. And it can be a dicey subject. How do you define in your school? A black belt, other than Dave, this time? Actually, no, I'm gonna pull that back. Because maybe that is part of your definition. If someone said, What is a black belt to you? What would you tell them?

Grand Master James Cox:

Well, my first answer is someone that is becoming the best version of themselves, that has made some drastic changes in the past four years, whatever, four or five, six years, it was more for a lot of the adults is the weight loss, it's the flexibility is the fitness levels, the confidence, all of a sudden their head is up, their chest is out, they believe in themselves. And at the end of the day, they can fight, they can defend themselves, they can put some pads on and spar and, look above average, for sure. So Blackbelt is someone that let's just say they're above average, but that's their version of their black belt. You can't compare John with Tom, Tom might be an athlete who was able to pick this stuff up. And man, he is just extraordinary already. And the other guy could have some learning disabilities could have some struggles that we don't know about. But for him, I mean, that is black, but I don't think everyone can become a black belt. But I think most people can be can in the right academy, because that's them that become the best version of themselves.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What would keep someone from becoming a black belt?

Grand Master James Cox:

What would keep them is a lack of effort and energy, I mean, all of us, they had some requirements, and all of a sudden, they weren't coming to that Friday class, and they didn't make 80% of the Bootcamp training. We've worked on this push-up, we've worked on this drill, and you're just still not getting it, because you're not trying. So I think lack of trying, is the biggest thing because you can tell, you can tell when someone is trying. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I would agree. If we circle back 5 to 10 years from now, and I said, Hey, James, what's happened since we last chatted, let's pretend we don't talk in the meantime, what would be the first things you would be hoping you would tell me?

Grand Master James Cox:

I'd like to evolve the brand of the core legacy of what I've done and the black belts that we've created, I would like to say, I'm somewhere with a podcast that I started working on. And I need to put, I will put more time and, effort and energy into it. So the online presence, the social media, the branding, and the ability to be able to help a lot more people in a lot of other ways, not just the people that walk into my physical location, where I can see them and touch them and work with them. But people that are in other countries and other states because of the podcast, the YouTube channel. So in five years, I want to talk with you and be proud of where I am with the branding stuff that we've done -podcasts, YouTube.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Awesome. I look forward to that. And if people want to get a hold, we really talk about your podcast. But that's kind of how we met. You were gracious enough to invite me to come on to your show, we had a blast. And there's a good chance that that's going to come out just a bit before this comes out. So if it is out, we'll link it in our show notes. But tell us about your show and what people can expect if they check that out.

Grand Master James Cox:

It's the martial arts lifestyle with James Cox, you can find it most everywhere. And a lot of this started where many things did during COVID and being shut down and quarantine and man not sure what was going to happen. Am I going to teach martial arts again, are people really telling me I can't open up my school and teach martial arts? How much fear are people going to come back? How are we going to keep teaching wearing these masks? I mean, everyone knows that the struggles that we went through are uncertain, right? And that's where it's like, well, I got to do something. So let's start some courses online. Let's figure out a little bit more about how people are on YouTube and this podcast thing. That's how it kind of started. The martial arts lifestyle is after COVID. And was like I have a lot of people that I know, - grandmasters world champions, people that have more education than I do. And that can spread empowering things in different ways to many people, so let's connect with them and spread the word. And that was the goal of the podcast. And that's where you can find it, we had you on. It should be out here in a couple of weeks. And then that was a great interview. I appreciate it. We went deep. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I had fun. 

Grand Master James Cox:

We want to keep evolving with that. And I mean, so that's kind of what happened and where we want to go with it.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Awesome. Website, social media, where can people find those things?

Grand Master James Cox:

You can find my direct brand at jamescoxmartialarts.com. And we're also premiermartialarts.com. And in Abilene, Texas, that YouTube channel is James Cox, martial arts, we put a lot of good videos that are universal, instructional, there's some education, some entertainment, some motivation. Some things that I think everyone can get some value from. So connect with us, let me know how I can help, and just keep living the good life, right?

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's right. And so I'll leave it to you to close us up. What are your final words to the listeners today? 

Grand Master James Cox:

I mean, I'm assuming most of your listeners are martial artists or aspiring to the martial arts and, you either need to find a way to balance out both being a student and being a teacher. And just like I can learn from my students, I do. I can also learn from my instructors. So to be both not to put yourself where you can't learn even more stop to stop learning,  continue to learn and grow and progress forward, even if it's emptying your cup to refill it, right? So, that's it. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

As I said in the intro, one of the things I noticed, in my conversation with James was the stories that he told in the story overall, there's a theme of change, a willingness to adapt to adjust, to the times, to techniques to competitive rules, whatever it is. And it's something that we don't always hear on this show. It can be a bit of a paradox, traditional martial arts and yet changing. But at the same time, you can't grow without change. And it's something I really felt came through strongly in our conversation, something I hope you also noticed, James, thanks for coming on. It was fun to flip it and have you on our show. Thanks for the time. 

Check out whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. For all the show notes, you're gonna find videos, links, social media, pictures, and so much more, not just for this episode, but for everyone we've ever done. If you own a martial art school, you can chat with us about our school consulting offering no obligation whatsoever. We've got a history of delivering awesome results with everything we do. And our consulting is no exception. Check out the consulting tab under the school section at whistlekick.com. I'd love to visit your school. Offer a seminar. If you're up for that. Just let me know. We'll figure it out. My email is jeremy@whistle kick.com, and our social media is @whistlekick. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.