Episode 790 - Hanshi Steven Johnson
Hanshi Steven Johnson is a Martial Arts practitioner, instructor, and President of the National Karate Jujitsu Federation, USA-International.
People from all places saying, you’re not this, you’re not that… I’m a higher rank… Who cares? To me, it’s about the arts, the training, the character, the integrity…
Hanshi Steven Johnson - Episode 790
If you idolize Bruce Lee, chances are high that you will train in martial arts one way or the other. Hanshi Steven Johnson was a kid who ran away from home with her sister. Later on, he found a common martial arts fan in his Social Worker as a teen, whose husband was a black belt as well. Hanshi Johnson learned by himself and shared what he learned to his Social Worker. However, there was a dojo near Hanshi Johnson at the time and when he found it, his life was changed forever. Presently, Hanshi Steve Johnson is the President of the National Karate Jujitsu Federation, USA-International.
In this episode, Hanshi Steven Johnson talks about how the National Karate Jujitsu Federation was founded, the people who made it happen, and its future. Listen to learn more!
Show notes
We mentioned Patrick McCarthy in this episode.
You may check out Hanshi Steven Johnson’s school on Facebook.
Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 790 with my guest today, Hanshi Steven Johnson. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host here for the show. Founder of whistlekick where all the things that we're working on are in support of traditional martial artists, probably people just like you. We have a mission statement to connect, educate and entertain traditional martial artists worldwide, all with the goal of getting everybody in the world to train for at least six months. It's a big goal we're working on and we appreciate everyone who is helping us to that end. And if you wanna help us to that end, well, one of the things you might wanna do is head on over to whistlekick.com. See all the things that we're doing. There's a lot of stuff that we're doing, and one of the things that we do is we have a store. We sell some stuff because we've got bills we've gotta pay as we work on our mission. And if you use the code podcast15, that's gonna save you 15% on all the stuff over there. Like maybe a hoodie, like the one that I'm wearing, or perhaps some sparring gear or one of our events. There's a lot of stuff that you can pick up, grab over there. Misspoke a little bit. Most of our events are not discountable, but we do have events. We have a lot of things over there that you'll wanna check out. We also have a separate website for the show. whistlekickmartialartsradio.com is the place to go where you can check out every single episode we've ever done. We have transcripts, so you can search if you're thinking, hey, has anybody talked about this? We also have episodes categorized and tagged so has anybody from my state or my country or my style participated? Yep. We probably have somebody that's been on the show from where you are or what you do, and you can sort and search just like that. Now, other ways that you might consider helping us? You could tell people about what we're doing, that's still the number one way that we grow. If you like this episode, you like what we do, tell somebody about, please help us out. Help us grow so we can continue to expand and provide really cool stuff for you and all the other traditional martial artists out there. You could also join our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. That's our Patreon account, and if you join our Patreon, how does that work? Well, you give over a little bit of money. It starts at two bucks a month, genuinely $2 a month, and you help us out and we're gonna give you great stuff back. But this isn't like the PBS pledge tribe that you might be used to, where you know, you donate a hundred dollars and you get a crummy tote bag. At $2 a month, we tell you who's coming up on the show. It's the only place you're gonna find out about that. At $5 a month, you get all that but you also get a bonus episode. At $10, you get bonus video. And at different tiers, you get to participate in our school owner's mastermind or get drafts of books and programs. There's a ton of really cool stuff and we know we're knocking it outta the park cuz people rarely stop their contributions. Now, my guest today, Hanshi Steven Johnson, we have an absolutely wonderful conversation. We talk about his journey, but we also talk about subjects like martial arts organizations. Are they inevitably troublesome? And a bunch of other things, kind of along those lines. I had a lot of fun talking to him, and I think you're going to have a lot of fun listening. Whether you're a student or an instructor, whether you have been through it the way he has, you know, maybe you've been training for decades or maybe you are brand new, I think either way you're gonna pull something from this episode. So stay tuned. Yeah. Thanks for being here. Appreciate you coming on the show.
Steven Johnson:
I appreciate your persistence I think.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, Andrew does a great job getting everybody booked and he is persistent, isn't he? In a good way hopefully. Hopefully. Only in a good way.
Steven Johnson:
Oh yeah. Absolutely. He's been very nice, very kind, you know. I'm not, I don't like getting in the public forum too much, and so I kind of shy away from, you know, the videos and so forth unless I'm in a dojo, then I'm good to go.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, you are exactly the kind of guests that we like them because the folks who are not out in front, not being super public are the ones that I find have stuff that the rest of us need to hear so much more.
Steven Johnson:
All right, we'll see. But I appreciate the opportunity and so thank you very much.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Of course. Well, if you're good with it, let's just dive
Steven Johnson:
Alright, let's go.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, I like to start almost always in probably the most obvious way that we spider off from there. So we'll just, I'm gonna pitch you a softball. How'd you get started in martial arts?
Steven Johnson:
Oh, wow! That is like a Mr. Karate Kid type of thing. When I was really young, in my teens, so I think I was 13, 14 years old, I had a less-than-stellar home life. So I ran away from home. I never went back. And there was a woman who was a social worker who was supposed to check in on us, and she did, her name was Rebecca Coggins. And she was my social worker for my sister and I for many years. And when she used to come to see me, she said, well, you know, I got a husband who's a black belt in karate. Cause she saw my Bruce Lee posters in my room back then. I said, really? You got a husband that's a black belt? And so she had my attention from that moment on. And so every time that she would come over to the house, I'd, you know, I pulled out my Bruce taking her books that I had back then, and show her the basic things that I learned. I had a pair of a nunchaku that I made out of a broomstick and some eye hooks and, you know, some string, and I would flip 'em around and things like that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
And so when I ran away from home, there was only one dojo in Elizabeth City, North Carolina. You know, martial arts wasn't too popular in that town back then. And so I made my journey to go find that dojo. And that was about 15, 20 miles from where I lived. And so, I found the dojo and I went up there night after night after night, and I just sat and watched. Didn't say anything to anybody but just watched. And while I was watching over to the side, I would copy the moves of all the other martial arts students that he, the Sensei at the time was instructing. His name was Tol, Tola Lewis. They called him Toby back then, but after many weeks, and him not coming to say anything to me, and I would just come and go, just come and go every night.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And nobody said anything to you?
Steven Johnson:
Nobody said anything.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Here you are, you're this 13-year-old kid night after night practicing on the side and nobody engages with you.
Steven Johnson:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that's fascinating. Okay. Keep going.
Steven Johnson:
Yeah. And then one day, the Sensei, right before class, he went to his office, brought out a gi, and threw it at me. He said put it on and get in class. And I said I don't have any money to pay for this. He said, did I ask you for any? And I said, no. And I had a little bit of attitude back then because of my home life. And so I became his student back in November of 1973. Almost 50 years ago. And it was painful, you know, because back then, you know, his Sensei was Shōgō Kuniba, who was a third-generation Samurai warlord of [07:27.9]. He moved to the States back in the '80s, I think, you know, officially but he did a lot of visiting. But at that particular time, in 1973, when I joined, we were with Seishin Kai Karate Union. And that was, you know, under the head of Sōke Shōgō Kuniba. And at that particular time, Kuniba had a US representative who was Richard P. Baillargeon, and he was the USA representative for Seishin Kai from 1964 to 1974. And then as like most stories go with organizations and so forth, there was a split. And the hearsay is much, so I won't go into that a whole lot of that, but Baillargeon branched out and he formed the National Karate Jujitsu Union. And Baillargeon was a direct student of Shōgō Kuniba in Motobu- ha Shito-ryu Karate-do. But he was also, he had a ranking in Hakkō-ryū jujitsu and he was also a master of Pakistani stick fighting. And he was military, you know, he retired from the US Air Force, you know, back in the day. And so, kind of moving forward with that, you know, after Baillargeon founded the NKJU for short, he brought over with him from the Seishin Kai, it was said to be between 4 and 5,000 students at the time, you know, nationally. And because most people wanted to be within the states where they can travel to see Baillargeon and attend his clinics and seminars and training. And back then, you know, martial arts was a kind of a new and upcoming thing in the US, so he brought Motobu- ha Shito-ryu to the United States back in you know, between '70 and '74, I guess. And so as it goes, me being a student, a non-payee student of Sensei Lewis at the Elizabeth City School of Karate, I was by default Motobu-ha Shito-ryu. So I stayed with Sensei for about 16, 17 years. But you know, in between that time, you know, I made Shodan in 1981.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Steven Johnson:
And then, you know, I joined the Navy in 1983, and I joined the Navy because my Sensei, he kind of raised me up like in the dojo. So, you know, at nighttime, you know, I told y'all I ran away from home, so I would go live on the streets or in the back of the church or find clothes from the Goodwill and things like that and did that for myself. But when Sensei found out about that, he gave me a key to the dojo when I was maybe yellow belt, orange belts back in the day. And so I stayed in the dojo at night and he and his wife provided me clothes and food and money. They would just leave it out on a table in the dojo and they didn't say anything. And his wife, you know, told her husband and I found out later not to turn me into Child Protective Services and everything and let's just take care of me and, you know, so I ended up becoming my Sensei's first black belt. I'm his highest ranking Yūdansha. He promoted me before he passed away to Hachidan or 8th dan and the title of Hanshi. And I became the successor to the National Karate Jujitsu Union. And before that, you know, before he, oh, after Baillargeon he, you know, he passed away back in 1989. And after he passed away, or right before he passed away, he named my Sensei as the second director of the National Karate Jujitsu Union. So likewise, since I was my Sensei's first Yūdansha and highest-ranking black belt, he awarded the next successorship to me. And I didn't see it coming but it happened because I, during my, after I left his dojo, God, I can't remember those back in 1991, somewhere there it was. Yes. He had promoted me to Yondan back then. And then likewise, Shōgō Kuniba was already here in the States, and he had a dojo about 50 or so miles from the Elizabeth City School of Karate. And so Kuniba would still visit, we'd go to his dojo, training in his dojo, and eventually at some point, Tol Sensei promoted me to Yondan. Kuniba also did the same because we were the exact same style, exact same system you know. Everything was, you know, Kuniba way. And so, you know, and moving forward with all that, you know, when I was with Sensei and I was growing up, I said, I'm starting to get a little bit of age, you know, now hitting in my teens and in my twenties and I said, Sensei I need to do something with my life, you know. What do you think I should do? He says join the Navy. I said, join the Navy? I said, what for? And he says, well, you learn about patriotism, commitment, loyalty, honesty, all those things that represent you know patriotism. And he was, he had retired from the Navy as well. And well, and he said, well, you won't have to you know be away from a home anymore because the military will provide everything for you. You have your education, you have food, your shelter, you have medical benefits, you get a guaranteed paycheck, and you just do what they tell you to do. I said, okay, well that sounds good, but what do I do with the Navy? And he says well be a corpsman. I said, what is a corpsman? I've never heard of that before. He said, well, there are medical people that take care of others. And I said, oh okay. So I went down to the recruiting station, you know, probably a couple weeks after our conversation and I took the military ASVAB test and I failed it. And it's kinda really hard to fail ASVAB test, but my education was just all messed up back the end because of the family life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
And so I think it just kind of reflected. So I was kind of disheartened at that but about six weeks after that, I got a call from the recruiter and said, look, are you still interested in joining the Navy? I said, absolutely. He said, well, come on down. So went ahead, went to the recruiter. I got a guaranteed school out of boot camp which is in San Diego, California at the time and to go to medical school or to become a corpsman. So I went to, I was in San Diego where I went to medical school or the, a basic A school for corpsman. End up passing that, you know, like several weeks long, about two or three months long and pretty intense between the military and the medical training. So I graduated at the top of my class and then left it there and went on to Porto Naval Hospital here in Portsmouth, Virginia. And while I was there, I opened up a dojo on base and I taught martial arts there for several years. And I got stationed on my carrier on the Nimitz. And while I was on the Nimitz, I taught the Marinette or the Marine Corps Division martial arts on the carrier while we were underway. And taught SEAL team units and just continued my martial arts, you know, teaching from that point on. But in 1997, I was stationed in Japan. So the recruiter gave me a choice. I either go to Hawaiʻi or I go to Japan. So it was a no-brainer. I went to Japan.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Of course.
Steven Johnson:
So, I went to Yokosuka and there I was with the, going back a little bit, when I was on a carrier, later on, I wanted to go to a more advanced medical school. So I applied for the Naval Undersea Medical Institute and got into that and graduated top of my class from there and became what they call independent duty corpsman for submarines. And that's like being a physician's assistant or a nurse practitioner. And so I left there and went to my first submarine command. And on board of submarine, there's really no room to teach martial arts cause it's just too tight.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've taken a tour of a submarine. Yeah, you're lucky if you can stand up. I can, I'm a short guy. Not everyone can.
Steven Johnson:
Yeah, but whenever we were in shore, fortunately, I was on one of those types of submarines. We're a research and development platform. So we were in for a few weeks, out for a few weeks, in for a couple months, out for a couple months. Long as we were out was about six or eight months at one time, I think. But just depends on the mission that you're going on. But when I was in Japan, I was fortunate enough to train with a lot of Sensei's over there that I never would've been able to train with over here, that I'd read about history books. And I got my opening there because of a, there is a Tim Jergen, you may see him on Facebook every now and then. He was stationed over there. He was married to a Japanese woman, was a martial arts instructor, a student of Aikido, Karatedo, Iaidō and all those things. So, and he could speak the language fluently. And so he invited me out to all these dojos and some week-long training seminar that was there at one time. Tried to get that outta the way. Sorry.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's all right.
Steven Johnson:
So he would take me out to all these different dojos and just say, all right, you know, here's Sakagami Sensei, here's Hiyashi, here's, you know, so-and-so. And along with the Kobudō and the Iaidō training, Aikido, you know, Nakazawa Sensei, there was just a lot of different instructors who, it's been a lot of years now since I've retired in military, but I really enjoyed it. In Japan, I opened up three dojo when I was there. One or two of 'em were on base and one of 'em was out in the Japanese community which was pretty unique. I think it was intriguing to the Japanese people that there was a gaijin teaching Japanese martial arts to them.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
But I ended up getting a lot of students there. But before I could do all that, before I could teach out in the community, you know, the financial people there in the community center in Zushi, they said I needed a teaching certificate from the Hombu Dojo. And I said, ah, okay. So I met with Kunio Tatsuno who was the successor to Kuniba after he passed away. And he came to see me in Yokosuka and shortly after he went back and everything, he sent me a teaching manjo that I could present to the Japanese community. And so that solidified everything there for me. So for, I was in Japan for seven years. I enjoyed it and taught a lot over there. Learned a lot from a lot of different people. And I was the first "gaijin" or American to teach Motobu- ha Shito-ryu in Japan. And I didn't know that until, you know, a little bit later on so that was pretty unique. But while I was in Japan, there was a, after Soke Kuniba passed away and he had named a successor Kunio Tatsuno. Tatsuno had a chief technical director whose name was Minamede and he would come to my dojo on base, you know, one or two times a month to grow my kata, Bunkai, go over other Motobu- ha Shito-ryu related budō. And so he says after a couple years or so, he says, next week, with his broken language, next week you go to Osaka. Test for Godan and that was it. And next week, I went to the Hombu Dojo in Osaka and there were, it was actually, there was a clinic or events being held and he didn't tell me that, but there were people from all over, all different countries. You know, from France, from Germany to you know, a lot of people there in Japan. No one from America, I don't think. Just me. And so we had the event that day and at the end, you know, they had a brown belt that was promoted to Shodan, a couple people to Nidan, Sandan and then I was promoted to Godan. And so that was my introduction to Osaka Hombu Dojo. I was very pleased. It wasn't a hard test, you know per se, but it was thorough. Cause they wanted to see, you know, self-defense and, you know, kata, but specifically Bunkai kata.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Was that the case for everyone testing or were they expecting that of you as a higher rank?
Steven Johnson:
They expect that a higher rank. You know, for the ones who tested for Shodan, they just wanted to see some self-defense techniques, some kata, some basic kata and some kata at the rank that they were testing for. And so that was pretty good, you know. There was a Sensei Joel Badhaye from France. He was there, but I'd known him for quite, you know, quite a few years. He and I worked out quite a bit while we were there at the event to kind of guru all the kata beforehand. And he was watching me closely and he was the one leading the testing. But Tatsuno, he signed the menjo. But you know, my time there I got to train with, you know, like I said, all styles from Shotokan to Chitō-ryū, Shito-ryu, Goju and it was just a barrage of so many different styles there that it was just great. But Japan, it was very clean, very respectful. You know, even if they didn't want to be respectful, they were respectful. But you know, the young people there, they're more accepting of Americans to stay in time. But the older people, they remember the wars, you know, and so forth and they still were kinda upset about that a little bit. But after they got to know you, then they kind of opened up and say, hey, you know, this guy's not so bad. But you know, it is like I remember when Baillargeon used to tell us stories about his time in Japan. He said he was a round eye or a guy team, and they would try to run him out of a class in the Japanese community cause he was stationed in Okinawa and mainland Japan. So I kind of expected the same thing. And most of the dojo I went to, they were pretty hard for the first night. I don't think they really expected you to come back again, but I kept coming back, you know, night after night, week after week, you know, when I was in port, and when I came back they ended up sometimes asking me to teach. I said, and with the senior Sensei being there, I was like, you're asking this gaijin to teach? And it was, so I did. And I ended up having a great relationship with a lot of people and some where I still have contact with them. I retired from the military in 2003, and I still have some good Japanese friends. You know, their language, English is not that good so I have a software program that helps me translate, you know, in writing as well. It's called SYSTRAN. So when they write me in Kanji, I just copy and paste in this program, translate it, and then I write back to 'em and, you know, translate it back in their Kanji and send it back to 'em so we hold conversations that way sometimes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's cool.
Steven Johnson:
I can speak, you know, quite a bit of Japanese, but I'm not fluent like I used to be because nobody, where I live, is Japanese. I'm here in Virginia and my job is all American. Everything's American. All the dojos around here are pretty much American. They don't speak a lot of Japanese there either. but it was a, it was a good trip, you know, as far as living there, my life growing up, you know. With Sensei Lewis, you know, he, you know, he passed away in 2020. And now, here again, here's where those little kink and things. With all the years I was with National Karate Jujitsu Union, well, Baillargeon and, Soke Baillargeon, they called him Soke even though he was a Soke. You know, he, that was, that was a nickname for him because he was head of the organization, but he wasn't the family head of a style. So his official title was really Taichou or the president or director of NKJU. So that passed on down to my Sensei and to me. But with Baillargeon and my Sensei, they never trademarked the name of National Karate Jujitsu Union. And so after I was after I became the assessor of NKJU, I think that was back in 2016, I was in the process of trademarking everything to make sure nobody else got it. And then I submitted all my paperwork, and then lo and behold, somebody had stolen our patch, our name, and everything.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow.
Steven Johnson:
And after I found out who it was, because he got it trademarked like a week before I got it trademarked. So he was all lurry. He knew, I think he had planned this. He was a student of Baillargeon for up to the rank of Shodan. And then nobody's ever heard of this guy and I don't like to talk about people, so I'm not gonna mention names. Because whatever situation they're dealing with, they just did it. So I hired an attorney to see what I could do to reverse that procedure. And the attorney stated that, hey, you know, you can do all this but it's going to take about two years of litigation and about $60,000 and dealing with his attorney, you dealing with me, and the Trademark Board of Appeals. And she said, my attorney, she just recommended, said, well, why don't you just change the name and do something that he didn't? You know, he had to get two trademarks because we were a National Karate Jujitsu Union and then later on became National Karate Jiujitsu Union International. And the only reason they did the international part is because we had some people who wanted to join that were international like I think it was in Germany or Sweden or somewhere. But their government wouldn't allow them unless we were trademarked or had a business license to do that. So, Sensei Lewis went ahead and made NKJUI. But this other person who trademarked everything, he had two trademarks, one for NKJU and one for NKJUI.[00:28:00] And he has a website up there called the legitimate National Karate Jujitsu Union. So, I decided...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, sounds a little defensive to me.
Steven Johnson:
Well, yeah, yeah. And you could, all the emails went back and forth and, you know, and my attorney sent him a letter to cease and desist which he ignored. And so I went ahead with my attorney's advice, and instead of getting two trademarks, I got one and it says National Karate Jujitsu Federation, USA International. So I cover all bases with one trademark. But as a result of doing so, even though NKJU had a good reputation, had some of the best martial artists that you know I've ever trained with. You know, even in Japan, the budo training that I received in the US was either equivalent to or exceeded most of what I did in Japan. Cause in Japan it's just, it's a commodity for them. It's expected of them. They, it's like going to gym class here in the US. And so, you know, their police forces, you know, they all had to have martial arts training of some sort. Mean, didn't matter what the art was. You know, everywhere you turn there is a dojo somewhere. There is a Itosu-kai here and Sakagami here, and then there's a Hayashi here, Mabui there, and all these different dojos all around me. So when NKJU transitioned on its own and brought all those 4 to 5,000 students from the Seishin Kai organization, it hurt Seishin Kai at the time. And then, Kuniba Soke think he realized that, and he is, my understanding that he wrote a letter to Baillargeon, you know, asking him to return to Seishin Kai. But Baillargeon said no. But however, Kuniba still was friends with Baillargeon. They were both friends up until the day they died. Kuniba promoted Baillargeon to 8th dan, 7th dan, 6th dan, all those other things. And in return, Soke Kuniba was at a lot of our NKJU events, training seminars, and he was a subject matter expert in all things buddo. But we all also had a secondhand, the second man in NKJU now, Soke Joseph Ruiz who was good friends with Kuniba, spoke the language, reads it, writes it, and so forth. He's just an awesome martial artist. And Kuniba you know, love Ruiz very much because he called them Mr. Kata. Cause Soke Ruiz, there's not a kata in this world that I don't think he didn't know when it come to the Japanese and Okinawa side of it. Whether it be empty hand or with weapons. And he's, you know, he's in his 70s today, he still teaches and he's still the same way. He doesn't forget anything.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's awesome. I love working with people like that.
Steven Johnson:
Oh yeah. He and his Bunkai capability was just phenomenal. You know, not only he taught, when we first started, you know, like I said, with Seishin Kai and Motobu-ha Shitō-ryū, and then Ruiz became my Sensei's instructor when Kuniba was back in Japan. And so we had the Zen Shotokai under Ruiz. And so most of my kata back then was looked like Ruiz and had that Shotokan flare to it. But when Kuniba came back, and this was from Ruiz himself, he asked Ruiz, look at his kata. And Kuniba looked at it and it said, Hmm, okay, where you learn, he says, not Shitō-ryū. So Kuniba made Ruiz relearn all of his kata, the Shitō-ryū system, and had him test. He had to do it during a week time and had him test for I think his 6th dan, 7th dan, I can't remember, but it's been so long ago. But Ruiz has passed and did everything and he continued teaching Shitō-ryū now. But he called it, he calls it Kotosu-Ha Shito Ryu name his instructors. But he has Shito Ryu, Katsu Ryu Kempo and his Zen Shoto Kai. And so I have a lot of history in different arts of training, but my core has always been Shitō-ryū. Now, since we have changed our name to Federation instead of Union, we've actually done better than when we were under the name of NKJU. Cause a lot, some of the students who found out the truth of who was whom, they left this other person's organization and joined us. Cause we had the true lineage, the true history, the true successorship, got it all in writing from our Sensei's and so forth. It's documented in magazines and other books and articles, you know. And so there's no doubt who the successors are because it's written, it's in history. And nobody really ever on doing this other person at all, you know. And Ruiz who was the secondhand person or second man in charge under Baillargeon never knew this guy. But if you go to his website, you'll read a lot of stuff and people just have to make up their own decisions.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's kind of unpack that subject. One of the first things you brought up was this. And the way you said it was so offhand. We are on the same page and I just, I'm sure so much of the audiences too, that organizations inevitably end up with these, let's call them political issues with these splits or people fighting for power and leadership within organizations. And it's a story that's told over and over within the martial arts world so here's kind of a two-part question. The first one being is that inevitable? Can these organizations exist without that happening? And part two, is it worth it?
Steven Johnson:
That's good questions. I was bound and determined to not get into politics when it comes to NKJF or NKJU whatever. I'm still the successor of NKJU in writing and history. So whatever this other guy does, he does and you know, to me, character integrity, all that stuff really matters and what you say matters. I watched a lot of politics. Everything was great you know. From when I started training up until I was about Yondan. After Yondan, then people come from everywhere. Like, you know, you're not this, you're not that. You know. You know, this is mine, that's mine. You know, I'm a higher rank or higher, who cares? You know? To me it's about the arts, the training, the character, the integrity, you know, is sweating out on the dojo floor. Let being a leader, being out there on the floor with your students, let them see that, hey, whatever you're teaching them, you're doing the same. And they see the work in you and they feel the work in them. The politics, it just happens. And it is because, and it usually happens because of people wanting to be recognized in at different ranks, different titles, you know, they want the status. You know, to be recognized. Well, that's all fine and I guess there was a place and time for everything, especially if you're really legitimate. You know, if you say that you're this, then you gotta prove it. But I was bound and determined that if I ever had my own organization, I would not be into politics. And, you know, I see things now, you know, I'll be 64 in May you know, and I think this November it will be 50 years that I've been in the martial arts. And it's important to me that the people who are in my organization, they don't talk negative about other martial artists. That whatever rank they are, however, they got it, either that person or that Sensei unless it's homemade, felt that person should be at that rank and that title, then I'm not gonna question the thought process of other Sensei's, you know? I remember having a conversation with Sensei Patrick McCarthy one day. We were on virtual.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
And this is when I first made 8th dan. And I said, oh my gosh. I said, 8th dan. I said I don't feel like I'm 8th dan or Hanshi or anything like that. And Sensei McCarthy says, well, you're not. And he said you will grow into it. And I said, okay. He says nobody is ever the rank that they test for, they grow into it. He says, he said, when you test, you test. You do the practical, you do what your Sensei wants you to do, you feedback to your Sensei everything that they taught you at that point, and then you grow from there. And that's exactly what has happened. But you can't do it alone. Now, the Sensei needs their students, the Sensei needs people of lower rank, equal rank, and higher rank for them to succeed and be successful. Cause we learned all the time from our students. I remember, just, you know, last year, now with NKJU we had now NKJF we have a big history of Hakkō-ryū Jujitsu and that's through the deceased Hanshi Lemuel Stroud. He and Baillargeon were good friends and Stroud, I think, promoted Baillargeon to Yondan in Hakkō-ryū Jujitsu. But he was an awesome, you know, since a best man I have ever known in my life, humble, polite, and so forth. And he produced some really, really great jujitsu students. Well, he had one student, Barbara, at then, her name was Barbara Tyndale, and now her name's Barbara Macovins cause she got married. But last year in Colorado when I was at our dojo there at Martial Science Academy, I was doing to de kata Ansani and then, so she took some moves with an Ansan and Bunkai it in her jujitsu way. And I looked at it and I looked at her, I said, oh my God, I never thought about that, you know, and I've known Barbara for 30 plus years. But as I was watching her Jiujitsu and looking at the application as how I can apply that to other parts of other kata that I have, the Jujitsu just ballooned, you know. I felt the Jujitsu, the Judo, the Aikido, the different throws and all the Bunkai and everything. A Sensei is always, always learning. It is just inevitable. And if you're not learning, then you're stalemate and then it's time for you to move on to something else.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Fully agree.
Steven Johnson:
Yeah. But getting back to your issues or your comments about the politics and everything else, it has no place in the dojo. It has no place in an organization. There should be no competition or strife unless it's just as healthy competition within the Dojo, you know, that type of thing. But that was the hard part.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I have a theory that I'd like to pose to you. This is something I've been thinking about lately, so it's a fairly new theory. It's not quite baked yet, and I'd appreciate your input. When I look at these situations that arise from, you know, interschool politics, inevitably, I, at least the situations that I know personally, I see some people who probably didn't meet the school's standard for character and integrity and were promoted up anyway. And I look at that and I say, hmm, did the instructor, the... you're smiling, so sounds like we might be on the same page. Did the instructor do the school and specifically those students a disservice by overlooking the personal development elements that we so often espouse in our training?
Steven Johnson:
The answer to your question is yes. You know, and I can tell you by experience. With Sensei Lewis, as I said, he was hard on us, you know, if it was, you know, 20 degrees outside, it was 20 degrees in the dojo and likewise in the summertime. And he hit hard, he was like, I kind of put it briefly, he looked like a Rocky Sylvester.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
You know, and he was tough, he was a hard hitter, you know, nothing seemed to be able to hurt him. But you know, when he got married to his second wife, his wife was a green belt under him in the dojo and I didn't like her that much. And I kind of showed that and I was just a white belt, yellow belt, you know, eventually made green belt and so on. But when it come time for me to test for my green belt, I didn't pass it. Even though I did wear all on the tests and because of my attitude and I was just angry all the time and I wasn't helping out in the dojo. I wasn't being a positive influence in the dojo. And then, so I ended up, when it come from the, eventually I passed, you know, I changed my attitude and did what I needed to do. But I kind of backs slid, you know, after I made, I tested for Sankyu, my first brown belt, and then between that and the time that I tested for Shodan, so when Ni kyu is about, you know, between Shodan, Sankyu to Shodan was about six years for me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a long time.
Steven Johnson:
And it stayed that way because of my attitude. And I dropped outta high school when I was in the 12th grade and my Sensei took me aside and he said, look, you can do that if you want to he said, but you're not gonna test for Shodan. And I said, oh, no. I wanted to be Sensei's first black belt. I wanted to test for Shodan. He says, I'm serious, Steve. He says until you finish high school, okay? You're not going to test with Shodan. Is it? And I'm not gonna promote you to a kyu, I'm not gonna promote you to Sandan, you know, nothing. And back then in North Carolina, they didn't have the GED programs, so I had to go to a high school diploma program at night at a local college. So I ended up going back to that, got my high school diploma, and then six months after of that I tested for my Shodan. It was a two-part test and part of it was at Elizabeth City. And then the second part was at a Fraternal Order of Police seminar in Georgia under Ruiz. So, but because I didn't show his wife, which was now Brown Belt, you know, the respect and that she deserved, you know, not only as a senior belt to me at the time but also being his wife, I reflected that not liking her in the dojo. And I was young and immature and just stupid.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And probably thought as some of us have observed, and I'm using air quotes "observed" because sometimes it's real and sometimes it's not. Where, you know, maybe there's a relation or a friendship in the school and that person gets special treatment.
Steven Johnson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And whether it happened or not, you were probably honed in on that.
Steven Johnson:
Yep. I was.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And it was impacting.
Steven Johnson:
Yep. I wanted to be the center of attention, you know, I wanted to be Sensei's first black belt. And eventually, I caught up with his wife in rank and then I bypassed her in rank. Cause as his wife, she kind of, she started having children and everything you know, so. And then later on in years and his wife ended up passing away and, you know, and I grew up and, you know, saw the stupidity of my youth. But she was a good woman and she was a good martial artist and you know, maybe if she wasn't, I wouldn't have been so like a pain in the butt to her when I was a young man. But she was always, her being a mature person that she was, you know, she paid it no attention and she just let since they address it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
But yeah. And so if you don't hold your students accountable when it comes to integrity, the character and the way they contribute to the Dojo, you just can't advance them. It's just not right because that does set a bad example for other students coming up. I remember, I was at a friend of mine's dojo and a parent walked in with her son and she had taken him from another dojo and wanted to join this particular dojo. And we asked, and he brought a rank certificate that he had from the other dojo that showed the instructor and we asked, well, why do you want to join here? They said, well, because the attitude in that other school is that all they ever wanted to do was fight and beat up on my son and he wasn't learning anything and he wasn't feeling good about himself and, you know, he just wasn't, nothing was good for him. So we need something that's more, that would build up his confidence, build up his attitude, his character, and make him be, help him become a leader. So he ended up joining our dojo and now he's one of the senior-ranking Senseis.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
So it is just a matter of, you got to learn by trial and error. There's nothing that can really replace experience.
Jeremy Lesniak:
eah.
Steven Johnson:
And so you grow up and you do and learn what's right, what works, what doesn't and then what you always have to do is respect those who come before you, you know. A lot of good people in my life and if it hadn't have been for that social worker who paid attention to me, her husband being a black belt, owning his dojo in this little small town in Elizabeth City at the time, and then him being associated with Kuniba and Ruiz and all the other martial artists. And his, you know, my Sensei's first Sensei or, you know, Barry McCarthy, probably see him on Facebook, but he's a well-known pastor now. He ran a program back then with Sensei Lewis called Karate for Christ. So, in the things that we all have in common, NKJU was born on the back of the military. You know, Baillargeon was, he retired military, a Sensei retired military. I retired military and I was submarines and I didn't find out till later in years that my Sensei was submarines.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
You know, so, and the other thing that we had in common that we all had the same style, core style, Shitō-ryū. We all had the Japanese training, Okinawan training and weapons, and so forth. But you know, I've had a lot of good people to help me get to where I am. I couldn't do it by myself. And the same still holds true now in my current position. If my organization is going to grow, I need the help of leadership to do that. You know, I'm just one person. I'm not Baillargeon, I'm not a Kuniba. I'm Steve Johnson, I'm the successor of NKJU. I'm the founder of the National Karate Jujitsu Federation, USA International. We now have schools in Virginia, North Carolina, Florida, Colorado, you know, Maine, New Jersey, Pennsylvania and we're continuing to grow each year. But I'm very cautious about who I allow into the organization. And I always do an interview prior to, you know, have 'em fill out an application. I look at it, I do a background check and see, you know, I have a High Dan Board that helps me with this process and cause the high dime board, they have many years of experience, you know. Either with my organization or outside my organization, I have a couple people who, that are on my board that are not associated with National Karate Jujitsu Federation. But they're good friends that I trust. All my people that are on my High Dan Board have a lot of connections. So in martial arts, it's a small world when you really look at it and, you know, especially if you're looking on Facebook, you see everybody, you kind of get to know people through social media now. So if, when somebody comes into the organization, I send out application and the information that I have to my High Dan Board, I'll let them review it, see if they know this person, the reputation, the character, know what they stand for and so forth. And if everything's positive, a decision is collectively between the High Dan Board myself to allow that person to come into the organization. Then we take him under. Now, the NKJF like it started under NKJU, we are a traditional martial arts organization of Okinawa, Japan, Korea, China. We have martial artists from all backgrounds who just want to join to an organization for the, not only for the camaraderie but for the expertise in training and the crosstraining. Cause like many of the masters of Japan, they just didn't do one art.
Jeremy Lesniak:
They didn't?
Steven Johnson:
When people think of the word being empty and taming a hand, they think, well, I got blocked and I kick in and punching. What empty hand means anything that you can do with your hand, whether it be Judo, Karate, Jujitsu, Aikido, all that stuff, tame the hand. Just do it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's all good.
Steven Johnson:
Yeah. And for people that are studying karate, they really need to have a grappling side of it. And the people that are grappling need to have a karate side of it because they complement one another. And as you've always heard of fights always go to the ground. And if you go to the ground and you don't know how to get out of that, you're doing your Judo, Aikido, whatever it may be. Okay. Then you're stuck.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
So with NKJF, we offer the ability to cross-train throughout all organizations, and a lot of times other instructors, whether they're my rank or lower or higher, they just wanna get with the organization where they can share their arts with others to keep their art alive. And so I am good for that as well. And because I've had a couple eighths and ninth-degree black belts ask to come to the organization. And after I learned about 'em, I ask them why? Okay. I said, I'm an 8th dan, I have nothing to offer you as far as your advancement and so forth. And, I said, no, no. I'm not gonna test somebody that's outside my rank or my style. And that's another reason why NKJF exists is if we have somebody that's in Taekwondo and they want to advance in the Korean arts, I have a Korean representative who is an 8th or 9th dan in Korean arts. I don't have anybody on the Chinese side yet, but I'm still searching.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
But I have all the paper that are in Karatedo, Judo, Aikido, you know, those type of things.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The word that's coming to mind is you're talking about this versus some of the other organizations that I'm familiar with, and certainly not all and I don't want people to out there listening to think that I'm pointing fingers or shipping hate around, but it sounds like it's about support.
Steven Johnson:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Support for growth. It's not, you know, I think there are a lot of org, I won't say a lot. There are at least some organizations out there that exist for purposes of ego and revenue. And I've bumped into some of those organizations. I have no desire to be part of those organizations. And I think that it makes an organization like yours makes it, makes your job a little bit harder because when people have a poor experience with that. But I think any group of martial artists, whether we're grouping for competition or we're grouping for a class, or we're grouping for, you know, a camp, a retreat or as an organization, if the first purpose is not let's help each other get better in our training, there's probably something off.
Steven Johnson:
That's exactly right. I remember when I tested for my Godan and I received the manju and the cost of that menkyo was $500.
Jeremy Lesniak: What is a menkyo?
Steven Johnson: Oh, that's a rank certificate.
Jeremy Lesniak: Okay.
Steven Johnson: I'm sorry.
Jeremy Lesniak: Thank you.
Steven Johnson: I'm sorry. Yeah, it's a rank certificate and it costs $500 for the testing and the receiving of the certificate. And I said my $500?! I was in the military at the time. That was a lot of money. And people don't join the military to get rich. And I said if I ever own a dojo, I said, I am never going to charge those kind of prices for a certificate of any type. And so, and I have lived up to that, you know, so anyone testing for black belts, any ranking black belt under my organization, I charge $0. Okay. Now, for those testing under black belt, you know, I charge $35 per certificate, per student. And that's how I had the some support to, you know, to buy the papers, to print, you know, ink and things like that, to pay for the overhead. Cause I promised my wife a long time ago that I would never use our personal money to pay for my martial arts support for our organization and I've lived up to that. So here again, when it comes to the financial part, you know, I don't need the money. I'm a director of environmental health and safety for a company that I've been with for many years, and I make a good salary so I don't need money to support the organization per se, other than for the basic of things. But I expect the instructors that are under our organization to enroll their students and they can issue their own dojo certificates if they want to, and if they want a certificate from here okay, then we will issue them one. I sign it and I'll leave a namespace on there for the Sensei to sign it and so they get an official looking menkyo or certificate. But they have to, in order to receive that certificate, they have to be a member of the organization.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Steven Johnson:
We are very affordable. We're not greedy. We get together, we train, we have a good time, we sweat, we hold a lot of seminars and you know, one day I'm gonna need to name a successor and I'm looking for that person. Cause maybe by the time I'm 70, I don't know. But I'm in good health and my Sensei, you know, he was not of good health when he passed away and that contributed to his passing. And I am bound and determined not to let myself get slack in those areas unless something unforeseen should have happened.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Steven Johnson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's, you know, I think there's a lot of wisdom in the various things that you shared about organizationally and then how you approach things. And my hope is that some of the folks listening, whether or not you're part of organizations, there are lessons you can pull into the way that you run your school you know. You articulated it. I feel, I don't wanna say strongly, but I think that our, the expectations we have of folks should reflect, our expecta, how do I wanna say it? I'm gonna say it a different way. If you charge a lot of money for black belt testing, you are discouraging people from testing for higher rank black belt.
Steven Johnson:
That's right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm a fan. Okay, so that $500 that represents how many months of training? Well cut it up and put it in the, put it in there.
Steven Johnson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? If it's an extra five bucks a month and raise your prices five bucks a month. Let your expectations of people reflect the goals that you want them to have. If you want them to progress up, don't set a financial barrier which, let's face it, most of us proceed that the way you talked about it while you were serving, it comes across as a penalty. You want me to pay all this money to test for my 5th dan? Oof. That hurts. It's discouraging. You probably know, I've certainly met people who have been held back cuz they don't have the money. Maybe they could have talked to their instructor or something, but just that barrier being placed in front of them, I've never been fond of that and I encourage schools to operate however they choose to operate in whatever works for them because there's no one size fits all model. But I think it bears pointing out that, you know, if you want people to stick around and grow, you gotta build a culture, including a financial piece that encourages that. And it sounds like you're doing that not only in your school but in your organization.
Steven Johnson:
Yeah. Well, you know, it goes back to, in Sensei's dojo throughout all the years, he never charged me for a class, a certificate, tournaments, rank testing, you know, seminars. He never charged me one dime. And so not, I have to pay it forward same thing. If we have anybody out there that wants to become a member of this organization, if they tell me that they can't afford it, then they're still welcome. It doesn't cost 'em a dime and I will hook 'em up with a Sensei that is near them or assign them to a Sensei to help 'em grow and that's just the way it has to be you know, as far as I'm concerned. And I don't know that, you know, I wanna go back to it a little something that's from the time, all the years that I was in Japan, the seven years, and I wasn't back in the USA when, since after Baillargeon passed away, and then Sensei, right before Sensei passed away, I met with him. I said, Sensei, I said, you know who, before he decided to appoint me as a successor, I said, why would you want to appoint me? I mean, I think Kevin would be a better choice. And Kevin Gurganus, he's with Carolina Martial Arts out in Durham, North Carolina. He is just a superb sensei, friend, technician, you just name. He's humble. He is just a very, very good guy. And Sensei says, well, I did ask Kevin before you, so I wasn't Sensei's first choice because I wasn't around, you know. And since they hadn't seen me in seven years and even though we had communicated by phone or by email and things like that, I said, oh, you did ask Kevin. I said, okay, great. I said, and what did Kevin say? And he just said he couldn't do it. He just, he had no interest to it. He's just too busy, you know? I said, okay. I said, then what? Now that you've offered it me, I said, I'm gonna call Kevin and I'm gonna offer it to him. And so I called Kevin and I said, hey, look, I said, this is the conversation that Sensei and I had. I said, I would like for you to be the head of the organization. Cause he and I had known each other for like 40-plus years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
We met each other when we were green belts. He was with another style in Sensei and he eventually came over to KJU but he was a competitor in martial arts, you know, tournament winner every, you know, just everything that you could want in a martial artist he is today. And so I offered it to him. I said, look, all I wanna do is just help you. And he says, Steve, he said, I appreciate that. He said, but Sensei made the right choice. He said you should be, you were his first student. You were his highest-ranking Yudansha or black belt and you should be in charge of the organization. So, and he says, I will support you. Yeah, I said, okay. All right. So, we kinda left out that and true to his word, he supports me. I talked to him a couple days ago but you know, he is also a, not only member of my organization, but he is a Kobudo Sensei under Sensei Dometrich with Ryukyu Kobudo Hozon Shinkokai.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a long name.
Steven Johnson:
It is. I think it translates to something like preserving the traditions of traditional Kobudo.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Steven Johnson:
But he had just some all some weapons and Sensei who've trained directly under Akamine Sensei the father, you know, and so he provides me an NKJU as well as Sensei Dometrich the Kobudo for our organization. And the Jiujitsu, we get from Shihan Stroud's students or now Hanshi Stroud, he's passed away. His students will provide us the Jujitsu training, but also we got in Texas, we got, you know, Andy Snyder, who's a 7th dan under me. He does his jujitsu and teaches that as well as his empty hand. But we got all the different arts that we all come together. If somebody wants to train and test in a particular art, then we have a sensei for that. And if we don't have one, we will go out and we'll find that Sensei. But what I refuse to do is, like I see a lot of other organizations do that are multi-organizational systems or style systems, they will sign, say if I am an eighth degree black belt in Shitō-ryū, I cannot go signing a fourth degree black belt or whatever in Taekwondo. I'm not ranked in that style. So it is just a no-brainer to me. So I get the other person that's ranked style.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you. Not everyone feels that way.
Steven Johnson:
I don't get it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't get it either. I don't get it either. If someone comes to me and you know, they want me to give them a grade on their French paper, it's the same set of letters, doesn't mean I'm qualified to evaluate it.
Steven Johnson:
That's right. You know, not if you want me to give them a rink and just Karatedo, then I'll do that. Okay. You know, because karate is karate, you know, you got your basics, you got your applications, you got your self-defense and everything else, all the moves. But one thing I'm really, I stress a lot is basics. Yeah. I may be an 8th dan and a Hanshi on paper, but I love basics, you know. And I still see a lot of upper level ranks whose basics are horrible.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Steven Johnson:
So in our organization, when I get us all together, I drill the basics. I look at 'em, and we go over the many uses of the basics and then I have others in the Sensei's who are really great in the upper level stuff and the middle level stuff. So I can't be, I'm a jack of all trades. I'll say master of none.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I look at it as, you know, another word for basics are fundamentals or foundational elements. If we think of the foundation of a building, the stronger that foundation, the taller you can build it.
Steven Johnson:
That's right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And there are, I think there are a lot of martial artists with a crummy foundation and it's tippy at the top. Little weebly wobbly up there.
Steven Johnson:
Yeah and I agree with you a hundred percent. And it is important to me that if, when people come to NKJF that they see quality and that they see the character and they see the integrity of the people that are within it. And that it makes them feel good, it makes them feel welcomed and that they know that they can receive some quality training here and that is competitive with whatever is in their mind. You know, I used to think when I was young, got to go to Japan and learned to train over there. But now that I've been there and I couldn't wait to come back to the USA because I think here in America, we have the quality that is...
Jeremy Lesniak:
I agree.
Steven Johnson:
Not in Japan. But, you know, people have to experience it. I encourage people to go there to see it. But if you're gonna go there to see it, go there to live there and then see on a daily basis. What you see when you go there, whether it be you're just going to a dojo, the train, or for an event that's just a day or two here and there. Go there for the long term and you'll see that the quality is just as good here, if not better in some cases, you know? Because Kuniba Soke was in our lineage and it was past Sensei Sensei and Ruiz and all the rest of them, I had the best here. And so when I went to Japan, it was, let me open up my mind there while I'm there and I learn from them so I did and as I have no regrets.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good. If people wanna learn more about the organization or get in touch with you, how would they do that?
Steven Johnson:
They can either go to my Facebook page and they just go to, just type in National Karate Jujitsu Federation or NKJF. They can Google me. I'm probably one of the first ones that pops up there under Google. They can email me at nkjf.kaicho@gmail.com.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Perfect. Alright. This has been great. This has been some solid stuff and we want some directions that I didn't know we were going to go, and I always enjoy that. But it is time to wind down here. So I'm gonna ask you how you want to end in a sense. What are your final words to the audience today?
Steven Johnson:
Final words to Sensei's is stay on the dojo floor. Don't just wear a gi, demonstrate leadership, be a person of good character and integrity and just provide an open door policy to anyone who wants to join your organization, and you'll be successful as long as you treat them with respect. And that's pretty much it. And then when it comes to the students, same thing. You enter a dojo, you go there for a reason and thank you very muchSensei for allowing me this opportunity. It's really been a pleasure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's been great having you on. Thanks so much.
Steven Johnson:
All right. Take care.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I wanna say thank you to Hanshi Steve, I appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks for sharing your stories and your time. And one of the things that I came away from our conversation really noting was the integrity, the respect that Steve brought to some of these delicate subjects. You know, some people kind of moving into some places that maybe they shouldn't have been and taking advantage of some things and stealing some names perhaps. But what came through for me was, hey, this is unfortunate. It's not what I want, but it doesn't mean I have to be disrespectful. I'm gonna focus on what I control. I'm gonna focus what I do, and I'm just gonna take it as an opportunity to get better and that I absolutely loved. It's a message that I think so many of us need to hear and take to heart. Now, listeners, you can go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com or the show notes and all the good stuff that we bring you for each in every episode. You probably have some in your podcast player if you're listening on your phone or your tablet, but there's more than we can put in there. All the great stuff that we have for that episode, for this episode, for all the episodes are available at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. While you're there, you can sign up for the newsletter, you can leave us a tip, some cool stuff over there. And you know, if you have a martial arts school and you have goals for your martial arts school, if you look at what's going on, you say, you know, Jeremy, I wouldn't mind making more money. I wouldn't mind having more students. I wouldn't mind this, that, or the other. But we offer consulting services. We take the same integrity, we take the same business model that we bring to whistlekick providing value, and we work with martial arts schools to bring the same sort of integrity and value proposition to them, and we help them grow. And we have been 100% successful in that effort. So if you're interested, you can either reach out to me directly, jeremy@whistlekick.com is my email address. You can also find a little bit more information at whistlekick.com under the school intersection or the consulting. And you know, the other thing you might want to consider, I teach seminars. I have a lot of fun teaching seminars. If you enjoy these episodes, if you have a fun time listening to me talk to people, well guess what? We can have a fun time talking and training and we don't talk much about me and what I do on the show cuz the show isn't about me. But that's another place that I'll be honest, I think I knock it out of the park and most of the folks who have me in for seminars have me back. So I think I'm doing something right, so you can just reach out to me there. Our social media for whistlekick is @whistlekick everywhere you might think of. We do this show twice a week and I appreciate you spending some time with us today. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.