Episode 804 - Master Kellie Thomas
Master Kellie Thomas is a Martial Arts practitioner, instructor and founder of Tae Kwon Do K.I.C.K.S in Vermont.
The reason why I’m teaching is to help people increase their self confidence and self worth because I lacked that growing up. I would share to my older students that I was suicidal high school through college. Taekwondo SAVED my life…
Master Kellie Thomas - Episode 804
Our guest today started her journey as a young kid because her father wanted her to learn self-defense. Master Kellie Thomas felt like an outcast in her own school but in the dojo, she felt she belonged. Master Thomas struggled in her life with suicide and according to her, was saved by Taekwondo. She has a passion for teaching and had a dream of having her own Taekwondo class but it didn’t become a reality until later in her life. Presently, Master Thomas is an instructor and founder of Taekwondo K.I.C.K.S in Vermont.
In this episode, Master Kellie Thomas talks about her journey into martial arts and how it helped her with life struggles. With the hardships she overcame in life, Master Kellie Thomas continues to impart her wisdom to children whenever she teaches. Listen to learn more!
Show notes
You may check out more about Master Kellie Thomas and her school at tkdkicks.net
Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 804 with my guest today, Master Kellie Thomas. Who am I? I'm Jeremy Lesniak. I'm your host for the show, founder of whistlekick where all that we do is in support of traditional martial arts and traditional martial artists probably someone like you. If you wanna know all the stuff that we've got going on, there's a great place to start. It's whistlekick.com, that's where we have our store. We have links to all the various projects that we have going, the other websites that might be relevant. And in the store, you're gonna find all kinds of great stuff, from protective equipment to apparel, upcoming registrations for events, training programs, and if you use the code podcast15, podcast15, it's gonna save you 15% on darn near everything that's in there. If you haven't been in a while, we're adding new stuff all the time. Even in this sweatshirt I'm wearing just rolled out I think three weeks ago as of this recording. Now, if you wanna go deeper on the show, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com is the place to go. We're bringing you two episodes each and every week. The purpose being to connect, educate, and entertain all of you traditional martial artists out there. It's one of the best things that we do. And yeah, it's free, but if you wanna support us, yeah, you could buy something, you could attend an event. There are a lot of things you could do, but here are the big three that we ask for. You could leave us a review somewhere, could be on Spotify, could be on an Apple podcast, just submit a review somewhere, that's number one. Number two, we have a Patreon. If you like the stuff that we put out, well, you can get access to more stuff that you're not gonna find anywhere else. Bonus content, as well as merch that comes at the various levels. It starts at two bucks a month. And number three, you could check out the family page, whistlekick.com/family. It's a kind of a mini Patreon. There's a bunch of bonus behind-the-scenes stuff that we put in there, as well as all the ways that you can help us in our mission to connect, educate, and entertain. And why is that our mission? Because we believe that traditional martial arts brings out the best in people. If we got everybody in the world to train what would happen? That would be a much better world, and that's why we do what we do. Now, in today's episode, we have a conversation between myself and Master Kellie Thomas, someone who has made a lot of lives better, who has taught a huge number of people, especially when you consider the population that we have here in Vermont. I've known her for years, but it's really only been over the last few years that I've gotten to know her much better. And proud to call her a friend, and very honored, very thankful that she was willing to come on. One of the things we said as we were ending in an off-air that I think is worth sharing here, we had a much deeper conversation because I knew who she was and because she trusted me, right? Most of the guests that we have on the show don't know who I am or they don't know me well. I spent plenty of time with Kellie and her family, and I think the world of her. And while it's going to be unlikely that this show ever changes in that way, that most of the people that come on are people I know well, it's fun for me to have that sort of contrast and bring someone on that I know some of their story and I know who they are, but I don't know all the details, and that's what we get into today. So I hope you enjoy it.
Kellie Thomas:
Hello.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How are you?
Kellie Thomas:
I'm good. How are you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good. What's going on?
Kellie Thomas:
Oh, not too much. Just same old, same old, right? We always say that, but we know that's a lie.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It is a lie. You've got a lot going on.
Kellie Thomas:
Oh, yes, yes. That keeps us young maybe? They say.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Busy at least.
Kellie Thomas:
Busy. Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because we're getting bored if nothing else.
Kellie Thomas:
That's true. Being bored sometimes doesn't sound so bad.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Until you're bored. Being bored is good for like, for me anyway, for like five minutes.
Kellie Thomas:
Yes. Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And then I'm bored of being bored.
Kellie Thomas:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And then I need to go do something.
Kellie Thomas:
Then the wheels start turning again.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's right.
Kellie Thomas:
And you come up with more projects to do.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, for sure. Being bored is dangerous in that way. How's your recovery? How's your, it was knee, right?
Kellie Thomas:
Yes. Yeah, it's going well. It’s going well. It's two months out now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
So, you know, it'd still be a while, but…
Jeremy Lesniak:
What can you do and can't you do?
Kellie Thomas:
I can walk without a cane now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
I can walk without limping if I think really hard about it. Just cause I limp for so long that…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Kellie Thomas:
The bottom shuffles. I can't kick yet, you know. I can't bring the leg up at 90 degrees yet or anything like that, but I can stand on it for a little bit and so. Pivoting still makes me nervous.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Understandable. Now you've had joint replacement before, but this is your first knee?
Kellie Thomas:
Correct. I've had three hips.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Three hips. All the same side or two in one?
Kellie Thomas:
Two on one side cause the first hip they did ended up being recalled like a car part. Same type of two-letter [05:04.3].
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you get a little postcard in the mail?
Kellie Thomas:
Yes. We're sorry to inform you but your hip has been recalled. Okay. Then.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, gotta be brutal. And I think I heard you say somewhere along the line that the recovery on this was way different. That it was much more intense.
Kellie Thomas:
It was much more intense and it did permanent damage.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Really?
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. So it's like I don't have a hip flexor on that side.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
So, you know, I can't bring that leg up to a 90 degree so I really can't kick with that leg either. So, you know, you just fake it till you make it I guess, and use a loud voice. And you gotta get the stare-down cause you want them to think you can still do things.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well you've got kids, so you've got that stare. I've never met a mom who doesn't have that stare.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. But it's funny, the adults will get it too, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. Cause we've all had moms, it gave us that stare.
Kellie Thomas:
I know. I made a grown man like squeal the other day, which was awesome.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was he doing that he shouldn't have been doing?
Kellie Thomas:
Oh, we were just kind of talking about you know, sparring and how somebody was like, well how do you do it you know when the person's so much taller than you? And I'm like, guys, I'm five foot. Everybody was taller than me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
I said you just, you know, have them kick and you've gotta go in, you know. You block and you go in. You just gotta be fast. And I said the thing about tall people is they're not used to having somebody in their face.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
It will totally freak them out. And so he was the tallest guy in the class and I said, you know, come on up Trent. I said, you know, I can't move this, you know, too fast, but, you know, throw a kick. Well…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Kellie Thomas:
Apparently I moved fast enough, blocked him in and he was woah! I was like. Then he wanted me to do it to his son and I said, no, that was questionable, we’ll leave that alone, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love it.
Kellie Thomas:
But it's true. They're not used to having people in their face.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
Cause everybody gives tall people. Well, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I do. I do. Cause everybody's taller than me.
Kellie Thomas:
Yes. You know, so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I feel quite confident when I spar someone my height. It's almost I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna say it's easy, but it's comparatively much simpler. It's like, oh.
Kellie Thomas:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Huh? Because I have flexible hips. So I tell people, you have to spar me like I'm six foot.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because like, I can, I've got reach with my legs and people don't…
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
They don't do that.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. That's why like, you know, in tournaments, I always hated the stupid head bob, you know, that they started allowing in.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
I had Ian. I think you've met Ian, bushy hair Ian. He went to Snyder's there. I wasn't there, but I got to watch the fight. The guy is like a foot taller than him and kept head bobbing him. I'm like really? There's like no skill there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No.
Kellie Thomas:
So…
Jeremy Lesniak:
But it is what it is.
Kellie Thomas:
It is what it is.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So we're gonna talk about a bunch of stuff today. I know you, I know you better than I know most guests that come on the show, so it gives me a little bit of opportunity to kind of dance around and we can talk about some different things. But the place I wanna start, cause I don't know the answer to this, I think I've heard bits, but how you got started?
Kellie Thomas:
I got started and so I have to put a disclaimer.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
Cause you had me on the show once before and I was so nervous, I messed up all my dates. So these are actually the true dates.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
I wrote them down.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Cause we had you on when we were talking about the adaptive stuff, right? I had…
Kellie Thomas:
Correct.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We did, I think it was kinda like almost a two-part. I had Jason on and we talked about the organization you've done some work with the Adaptive Martial Arts Association.
Kellie Thomas:
Right. And you're like, oh, so how'd you start? I'm like, oh my god, I wasn't prepared for that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, we can pretend that didn't exist and will just…
Kellie Thomas:
So we'll pretend it didn't exist. So I started in 1981, I was 11. And my dad wanted me to have some self-defense classes. He was one that, I grew up on a dairy farm and he had the attitude that as a woman to succeed or participate in a man's world, you had to know how to fight and work like a man. And so that's kind of where the self-defense piece came in. And he, I believe was selling insurance at the time and one of his clients was Rick Dion who had a Taekwondo school and so that's how I got started.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What I find most interesting about that is if you go back to 1981, not that I remember 1981, I was barely alive.
Kellie Thomas:
Thanks.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But you got a couple years on me. Not a lot, but you got a couple. And there's something I've always found interesting cause it shows up periodically in episodes, this idea that, okay, self-defense exists. It is a thing, it is a thing that can be learned is this thing I want my kid to learn and martial arts classes are a way to do that. That was not common then. So do you have a sense as to how he connected those dots and understood it well enough that he wanted you to participate?
Kellie Thomas:
I'm not sure because honestly, back then, I don't remember doing a lot of so-called self-defense, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Kellie Thomas:
As opposed to just, you know, learning how to spar and how to kick. And I think, with him talking to who became Grandmaster Dion. You know, Grandmaster Dion's like, well, you know, they learn how to kick and you can, you know and defend yourself. Because I don't think self-defense was really necessarily on the radar as much. Like you said, it was just sort of like, you know, you're learning how to kick and punch and block, well, that’s self-defense. And so I think that's sort of how that all got started.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. And 11 is, I mean you know because you have a school, 11 is not a common age that people start.
Kellie Thomas:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
In some schools, it's more common in others, and I would say it's more common now than it was for a while. Was it something that you took to right away?
Kellie Thomas:
I loved it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
I had a low self-esteem and didn't have many friends, and was really a tomboy. And I came into a small town where everybody was related and they had been to school together forever. So I was the outcast.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And a girl wanting to play with the boys was not really acceptable. And the fact that I grew up on a farm and was often late to school because farm chores had to be done before school and so I'd go and smell like the barn and so it was just, I didn't really fit in there. But then the Taekwondo school, everybody there was supportive. And being, a strong loud girl was okay and it felt great. It was different because my brother who trained with me as well, my father later joined us, we were the only kids in class. So that was really unique too.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. Yeah, there were quite a few schools that didn't have any kids classes. In fact, I don't know that I would say kids classes were rare, but they certainly weren't the norm from my understanding of the early 80s. How long after did you start with your brother together? Start at the same time?
Kellie Thomas:
Yep. We started at the same time. And then my dad would watch like so many parents do, and he finally said, well, this is ridiculous. I may as well do it, so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How long after did he join?
Kellie Thomas:
I'd say probably six months…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
…of watching. And so my brother and I were the youngest and my dad was the oldest in class.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. And you know, because I know you teach a lot of families now, so I bet you've looked back and, you know, on that dynamic and how it impacted your family. How did it impact your family? What was it like for the three of you sharing that experience?
Kellie Thomas:
It was great. It's probably my favorite childhood memory. We used to do a lot as a family because we had the farm, but as far as going on, we didn't do family vacations. We didn't go to the movies. There wasn't time you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
But there was two hours a week that we would go and not do farm chores. And so that was really, it was really fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. So, 11 and you're going, what was the next, and we can call it milestone or interesting point that we might talk about on your journey there?
Kellie Thomas:
Well, with being on a farm, we kinda came and went. I think I got to blue belt as a kid and then we had to stop. And so that was probably, I'd probably done it for a couple of years. And then was going to UVM. And as a sophomore there, I saw a flyer that said there was a Taekwondo club. And I'd always missed it and didn't necessarily realize how much I missed it until I saw the flyer and I thought, well, I'll go give it a try which was big for me because I really am a shy person and to walk into this room where I wouldn't have known anybody but my desire to check it out you know, outbid or outwon my discomfort.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And the interesting thing was when I went into UVM, it was being taught by Master Joe Shields. And Joe Shields was a student of Grandmaster Dion. So even though all these years had passed, I never left that home base.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. And did you have kind of the same experiences when you had started before that you just took to it and it was just…
Kellie Thomas:
Oh, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
A refuge?
Kellie Thomas:
Oh yeah. I mean, it was just, you know, martial arts people were a unique bunch. And there's certain things that you just gravitate to each other towards. You know, you like the push, you like be able to push your body to find out where you know, how far can you go. You push the spirit, you know, there are days you don't feel like going and you go anyways, and you walk through the door and all of a sudden you feel better. And that doesn't seem, at least not to me, doesn't happen anywhere else except in a school, in a martial arts location. And you know, we got along great. UVM still has a great program going on. Back at the time, they had these living dorm they called living and learning. And there would be suites and suites could be a certain topic.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
And there was actually a Taekwondo suite. And we had like a top floor. It was like, and it was wild. I mean, you just had to be, you didn't know when you were gonna walk in there might be throwing stars. We had to do a lot of wall fixing, perform left.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I could imagine.
Kellie Thomas:
You know, I mean, board breaking everywhere. You know, you get you know, someone be knocking on your door at midnight. We're going to spar! Let's go! [16:12:8].
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love it.
Kellie Thomas:
[16:13:3] contact with many of them and if they're not involved in martial arts. So you know, it really had an impact on everybody.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Okay. So, as you said sophomore year, so three years?
Kellie Thomas:
Three years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
From Taekwondo and then?
Kellie Thomas:
So, as I also have this habit of injuries. And as a red belt I actually tore my ACL.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oof!
Kellie Thomas:
Which, so back then would've been in like 1990 and ACL repairment is not like it is now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
They told me like no Taekwondo or anything for like a year, which was as a red belt is about to kill you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And so I had to do some backoff and do a little bit of training and whatnot, I would still go, I probably did not wait a year. I'm guessing I did not. And so I continued to train with UVM program and we would, because Joe Shields was a student of Grandmaster Dion, whenever we would have testings, the Dion's would come. At this time, there was Grandmaster Dion and Laurie Dion, his wife, so it was a husband and wife team that were running the schools. So they would both come and, you know, do our testings and watch us test. And I was the point person cause I knew them to call and schedule, you know, when they would come and stuff and I was on the phone with her and things were just totally out of control. And she's like, oh, I've got so much to do. She says, you know, I'd really could use a secretary. And she's like what are you doing? So, well, so she ended up hiring me to work at their school.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, okay.
Kellie Thomas:
And so I was sort of behind the person one making the phone calls and doing the sort of the bookwork all behind the scenes. And I got my black belt from them in ‘92.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
So I took the long, yeah, 11 years. I took a long, long way. A lot of scenic routes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Some detours in there.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. Injuries, you know, all those kinds of things, and yeah. But…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you think you appreciated it more because of those detours?
Kellie Thomas:
I think so. The biggest thing that I know now is because I had all those detours that I was able to train as a young child, train as a college student, which I mean, gosh, that's like the best time, and then, you know, train again later, I've been able to experience what training is like for people of all ages.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And so it allows me to understand, I guess. And, you know, plus two, what I do is I tell my students it's not a race. Cause sometimes people get, you know, oh, I've missed this testing, or I'm not here and I just don't, you know, how long it took me to get to black belt? 11 years. And they go woah! And I'm like, I said, does that make you think less of me? And they're like, no. I said, so see, it doesn't matter. And I said, plus you'll probably get there before I did, and that always makes them feel a little bit better.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Okay. So your first job outta college was martial arts related?
Kellie Thomas:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Not a lot of people can say that. And I would assume that that gave you a front-row seat and probably dragged you out of your seat at times for training?
Kellie Thomas:
It did. So she hired me, I was still in college. I had another full-time job besides…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
And so I think I was only working for her like two nights a week. And once I graduated, I continued to work for her two nights a week. I still had the full-time job at UVM. And then another school hired me for a couple of nights a week. So being, you know, behind the scenes and watching how that all worked was a big part. And then of course, you know, I would work my shift and then I'd go out for, you know, advanced classes and that sort of thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. A little bit of foreshadowing, I mean, you have a school now, were you thinking of having a school back then? Was that a dream?
Kellie Thomas:
I wasn't because I was terrified to teach.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh! Say more about that.
Kellie Thomas:
So I was, well, I probably still am, but I've tried to calm it down a little bit. I was always a people pleaser. And I never wanted to let anyone down. And I never wanted to do the wrong thing. And so, teaching, to go out there, I was always afraid, especially the warmups, which is probably like the easiest thing to do, but I'd be afraid like I didn't do it right. Cause I had it in my head, you know, my instructors did it a certain way, so I was supposed to do it a certain way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And to the point where once I got my black belt and sometimes Mrs. Dion would be busy with students or whatever, and class was supposed to start and I knew she was going to be looking for somebody to start class, I would actually hide in the bathroom and wait until I heard somebody else starting class before I would go out.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now I think I've heard you say this before, and I think the next point is she caught on.
Kellie Thomas:
She did. She did. She waited for me once and then sent me out there. Yeah, you didn't get much buyer for very long. But what I found, which was interesting, once I, you know, warmed up class, we had a Saturday morning class that the Dion's didn't attend, they just let you know whoever it was run it and that person was getting done. And I volunteered to do that class because I felt that I would be more comfortable doing it on my own when I didn't have them like staring at me. The Dion's were a really big part of my life. Mrs. Dion is basically, you know, I consider a big sister. Grandmaster Dion was probably like an uncle and so, you know, for me it was a more than just an instructor- student relationship. So it was like a lot of extra pressure for me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And because they had done so much for me, I didn't wanna, you know, I didn't wanna let 'em down. I'd always be like, well, a new student came in, and if I said the wrong thing and they laughed and you know, how do you correct that? You don't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
You know, when you're in that situation, you're so afraid of doing something like that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
But I decided to take over Saturday mornings and that's where I really started to love what I love, teaching. Because, you know, I could do it my way and it wasn't that much different, but I felt like I was on my own and I could do it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But you didn't have the pressure of them there…
Kellie Thomas:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Observing you and you know, I think most of us can relate to that pressure. And you know what? It sounds like you were applying pressure. It probably wasn't there you know, they were observing. They wanted to make sure you did it right. But, you know, just as I'm sure you watch your students now, they'd probably rather you not be in the room while you're observing them, but it doesn't mean that you're standing there staring them down and nitpicking every little thing most of the time. There are times where that's appropriate, but most of the time you just wanna see them succeed.
Kellie Thomas:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. So you're teaching Saturdays and it's going well, and you're kind of finding your way. Did that change your thoughts on, oh, maybe this is something I want to do in the future in a bigger way?
Kellie Thomas:
So, I think, probably when I got my second to be black belt, I started thinking that my goal was to get to be a master and to own my own school. And that's sort of where, you know, they were kind of training me in that direction as well. Giving me more and more responsibilities, teaching more, helping with the kids more. Cause Mrs. Dion was one to say if you wanna learn how to teach, teach kids because they'll teach you how to teach.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You can't get away with anything.
Kellie Thomas:
No. Right. It's like, wait, you did say that last week. It's like, it's ok. It'll be okay you know, and you really have to be able to, you know, change on the fly when you've got kids because it can go from, you know, everybody's lined up nice to trying to organize jello. That's very fast.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Great analogy. Organizing jello. Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And you know, I had done some competing and stuff all the way through and, you know, with being like their secretary or you know, right-hand person, I got to meet a lot of the, you know, masters of the time and establish a relationship there and kind of see how things were going. And so it really helped me feel like there was more to the martial arts community than just the school and that I wanted to be able to do it as well, you know, add myself into that formula.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure, sure. What were the people around you, your, let's say your nonmartial arts peers if there were any at that time, because you know, here you are sounds like 22, 23, 24 opening a martial arts school. Not just at that time, but at that age isn't something that's super common. I'm wondering if the people around you understood why it was important.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. Well, I didn't actually open up my old school until much later. It was just sort of in my head.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. Okay. So you weren't talking about it with anyone?
Kellie Thomas:
I wasn't really talking. I talked a little bit about it with the dies because, you know, they knew eventually at some point they would, you know, retire, and yeah, you know. So I continue to work with them and had it in the back of my head that, you know, maybe someday that would be the place for me. They had a place in Colchester and just, you know, kind of continue, but it's hard. When you look at, I was working for UVM, had a nice job, had benefits, running a martial arts school, no benefits, no guaranteed, you know, salary or anything like that. And it was always kind of hard to think about how to balance it all. And like I said too, it was kinda hard. I'm in my 20s and so all I'm doing is working and working and training.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
So there's no other life. So I wanted to make sure I didn't miss out on everything. Even though I was doing what I loved, but there was still, you know, some other aspects of life that was needed. But most of my friends were martial artists.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And even today.
Jeremy Lesniak: I wanna take a little bit of a tangent cause it's a subject that's come up a bit throughout the years and it has to do with women training. You know, 1981, there were not a lot of women training and even fewer teaching and of, you know, I've met, well, Grandmaster Dion, I've not met Mrs. Dion. So I don't know what the dynamic between them was back then, but I'm going to guess that, you know, he as the senior rank, you know, kind of ran classes and the culture was a bit more of him than it was of her. And yet, when I've heard you talk over the years, you talk much more about her, that you bonded more with her. And so, what I wonder is how important was that for you, you know, at 11 and as a teenager and as a 20-something to have that role model? You talked about her as a big sister to see another woman in the martial arts and doing something in a way that you could aspire to. Here she is, she's teaching and it was something that you were starting to think you wanted to do.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. So it's funny that you say that. You would think that Grandmaster Dion would be the one that, he oversaw things, but she did most of the teaching.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, ok.
Kellie Thomas:
She really did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Interesting.
Kellie Thomas:
She really did. He would do like the black belt classes. He would do some of the advanced classes, but cause he also had another job. He was a carpenter.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh.
Kellie Thomas:
And so she ran the schools basically. They did have two schools. One was in St. Albans, one was in Colchester for a long time before they sold the one in St. Albans. But she primarily did all the teaching and any of the, you know, the office stuff that I didn't do you know. She was the face, he was sort of like the head, you know, he'd walk in and, you know, he had this way about him that you know, he'd walk in and you knew somebody important walked in. You wouldn't know who it was because he had like long hair and wearing flip-flops. So definitely not the attire you would expect, but you…
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're describing my first impression of him as well.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. Right. You know, you just like, who is this guy?
Jeremy Lesniak:
The guy with long hair and flip-flops at a time of year when flip-flops aren't really appropriate and everyone is just looking at him reverentially. It's like, oh, he's somebody.
Kellie Thomas:
So it is somebody, you know, but he never had that air, right? He just sort of, it came with him. And so, I mean, he was, you know, he was there, he was the Grandmaster but she was really you know, the heart of the school. And so that was really unique because like you said, there weren't that many women that had that important role in the martial arts. And so with that, I think that also brought a lot of other women to the school.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
You know, I think women instructors or women school owners, which I still don't think there are a lot, tend to bring in a lot more girls and women. Cause I think at one point, we had like 30 women black belts in the school. And so that was really to have that. But it was still very hard because felt like you always had to prove yourself you know because you were a woman. You had to prove yourself all the time. And I know she felt that a lot of the time you know. And again, you've got the where she's married to the master, and so, I mean, there was no, you know, there were no cut and corners, you know, you were out there. And that's how I kind of felt too, as you know, her protege or whatever. There was no cutting corners. You know, I would you know, when I would go to compete, you know, we'd tape my pattern, you know, the old fashioned way, vhs you know, and then we'd wind it and we'd watch it and she'd like, and, you know, do it again. Tape it again. I hated her as my judge. Cause as soon as I'd start, I'd look at her and she'd go, you know, but she was hard on me because she knew I could take it and she knew where I could go.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And so sometimes that was hard. But now looking back, I do appreciate it. Because what I discovered as a woman martial artist, a lot of times it's not the men that were the problem, it was the other woman martial artist at that time. I believe it's changed now. But, you know, as a woman, I can say this working with a bunch of women can be really nutty and, you know, really catty. And a lot of jealousy I think tends to happen whenever, you know, you're working with a lot of women or like I said back then, and that's what I had experienced.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I've observed that in and out of the martial arts. I think the healthiest groups have good, strong men and strong women, you know, as you know, in all the ways that you could represent strength as a man and a woman. Different body types, different energies. I think it, and you have schools now, so I'm sure you've seen it, you've had groups where it's a little more lopsided one way or the other, and it's less healthy.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. It's a whole balance thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
So, but no, she was a big influence on, you know, what I do now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. Okay. So, full-time job, you're in your 20s, you're being raised, groomed to go and do this, should you choose? But I also know that you know, we've made it to maybe mid-twenties, took a while, and because you opened your school, I think I've heard you say six, seven years ago? Kellie Thomas:
16 years ago.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
Yes. Six, seven years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm missing a one.
Kellie Thomas:
No. Yeah. Well, six, seven years ago I went full-time.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
So, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, okay. All right. So then, let's talk about the points in time between you know, mid-twenties and you starting to teach for yourself.
Kellie Thomas:
So…
Jeremy Lesniak:
What happened in there?
Kellie Thomas: So I was probably, I got my third degree and the Dion's were moving, this was probably ‘98. Yeah. So I was about 28. Dion’s are leaving and for some reason, and like I said, everything happens for a reason and it was their business so it was their decision. They wanted me to stay on as like the secretary person and take care of the books, being the office person. But they felt that I wouldn't be able to handle all the teaching as well. So they started grooming somebody else to start doing the teaching and that we would do it together as partners.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
And I wasn't a big fan of that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why?
Kellie Thomas:
Partly because the person that was coming in every time he came in complained about having to be there and teach. And so I…
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're getting better as a teacher.
Kellie Thomas:
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you felt like you had this role set in front of you and they wanted you to work with someone who didn't even want do it.
Kellie Thomas:
Correct. And, you know, they thought it was way, I never said a thing to 'em because like I said, it's their business. They want, they were retiring, they needed to set it up the best way that they thought possible. And at the time I was working at UVM, I was approached about a different job that was gonna take me into Addison County. And they guaranteed me a huge raise, better benefits. And so I decided to go that route.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And for folks that aren't local to Vermont, we're not talking about a huge move, but we're talking about moving from the city that Vermont has half hour to 45 minutes South, depending on where in this area we're talking about.
Kellie Thomas:
Right? And so for me, from here to Colchester, it's about an hour or so. And it was gonna be a totally different job. It was a sales job. And so I was gonna be on the road all the time and figured that, you know, I needed to give myself the opportunity to do this and let the Dion's go ahead and do what they were gonna do.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And I was going to stop the martial arts. At least that role, I was still hoping to continue to train, which I still did. I would still drive up and train once in a while, but it just, it wasn't the same. The Dion's left and for me that was a big, you know, other people took over the schools.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How much of it? Cause I feel like I can ask you this question.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't wanna lose the opportunity. Cause a lot, so many of us have experienced this, you know when leadership in a martial arts school changes, the culture changes, the curriculum changes. Doesn't matter how closely people try to follow it, it's always going to change, at least somewhat. How much of your decision to step back? How much of it was the job and the logistics and how much was it that you were hurt the way that they end kind of set things forward?
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah, I was definitely hurt but I respected them.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Kellie Thomas:
And I didn't say anything. Mrs. Dion and I spoke about it years later, and she wishes now that I had. But I still see…
Jeremy Lesniak:
That you had brought it up?
Kellie Thomas:
That she wishes that I had, I felt if I did, I would be more like a bratty kid. Like, but you promised, you know, and this was a big deal, you know, and they had, you know, it made sense, have somebody do this and somebody do this. But it wasn't what I wanted, you know. I didn't wanna be at the desk all the time, you know. I wanted to be a big change from the kid who was from the, you know, girl who was hiding in the bathroom you know. I love teaching and, you know, molding people and doing that. And since it was no longer what I envisioned myself doing or what my goal was, I was like, okay, well it's time to shift.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And so that's what I did. I think I left the school a few months before they left. And of course, I said Mrs. Dion and I years later talked, they were also very upset and hurt. The fact that I left and I moved down into Addison County and started my new job, which in retrospect, this is where I was supposed to end up. So everything happens for a reason, even though feathers can get ruffled a little bit.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. I know what it's like to train occasionally. It can be difficult, you know, especially when you go and, you know, the planets align and you get to go to class and you have a great class and you have a lot of fun and you're driving home and you're going, man, I wish this happened more. I wish this was a bigger part of my life again. How long did you do that?
Kellie Thomas:
I probably only did it for about a year. On my move down here with my new job, I met my first husband. And we were deciding to get married and like you said, it wasn't going to, you know, the Dion School wasn't the same for me anymore. Popping in periodically. You didn't really know anybody, so it just slowly kind of went away…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
As I focused on what I thought was going to be my new direction and new life. So that kind of, you know, getting married, having kids. My first husband was also a dairy farmer, so I went back to, you know, farming, you know, and that really kinda like helped kinda screen over that part of me that I, you know, tried to convince myself wasn't important. That this was, this other part now was important. And, you know, Taekwondo was in the past and I did what I did, you know, packed everything up. I tell people you know, I went through, so far as I threw away all my old belts, which I tell people, don't do it, you know, but it was my way of cleansing and like, nope, I don't need this stuff anymore. But in actuality, it was more painful for being to see all the time. So I was just like, chuck it, get rid of it. And then see, I think I could toss it. I'm all done. I don't have to do Taekwondo anymore.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you thought that chapter of your life was done?
Kellie Thomas:
I really did, and I really did. And I, you know, I really tried to force that book closed, but obviously it didn't stay that way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When did you reopen it?
Kellie Thomas:
So, my daughter was five and she was attending a private school and every Friday they would have athletic days because they didn't have gym every day. They just locked off, you know, every Friday afternoon to do their athletics. And they would bring in special people to do all kinds of different athletics. You know, they'd go play, you know, go skating for the afternoon or they'd go play basketball somewhere. And my daughter who has anxiety every Thursday night would be a panic or, because she wouldn't know what the athletic was, wouldn't know if she'd be any good at it and didn't know if she'd even like it. So we'd always have the con, we'd always have to have a big conversation on Thursdays. She came home one Thursday and she said we're doing Taekwondo tomorrow. I was like, what? Because even though I was done, I was kind looking for a school to enroll my daughter because I knew how great it was. And I couldn't find a school around here, so I was really curious to who they found.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And so that morning I went in and talked to one of the teachers and understand you're doing Taekwondo, you know, for athletics. And they said, no, it's Tai Chi. Well, Megan had never heard Tai Chi. She had only heard Taekwondo. So that's where she kind of got her mixed signals and they said, actually they can't do it. And I said, well, I said, years ago, prior to children and everything else, I said, I used to be, you know, a black belt in Taekwondo. If you ever are in need of anything, you know, let me know. And they said, what are you doing next week? And I said, apparently ordering paddles and a shield. They wanted me to come in and teach a couple classes for 'em. It was the end of the school year. So I went in and taught six classes. It was three weeks. We broke 'em up by age. And it was really kind of nerve-wracking because it was one of those schools where like the teachers were by their first name. Yeah. And there really wasn't a lot of discipline and there really wasn't a lot of general respect that I would have expected to see from kids because it was just a totally different idea of teaching, I guess. And there was especially this one kid that just would roll his eyes no matter what, and was just,
Jeremy Lesniak:
My least favorite thing that I teach kids.
Kellie Thomas:
Right. I know and it's like, you know, he was just, I felt like he was just such a puss, and, and I was like, oh, what am I going to do? Am I gonna go in there? Because they all know me as Kellie, because I'm like Megan's mom. And I said, what am I gonna do? I said, well, they're gotta get the whole thing. So I went in and you know, said you know, got everybody lined up. I said, okay. While I'm here teaching I'm this is good. I'm Master Thomas, you know, and master is my job name. Like going to the doctors, you know, it's Master Thomas, we're gonna bow, we're gonna say, yes ma'am. No ma'am. And I just laid it out there, you know, just boom. And the eyes were like,
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I can imagine.
Kellie Thomas:
Like what? And you know, so we did a few classes and it went really well. On the end of this school year celebration, a mom came up to me and said my son wants to do Taekwondo. And you can probably imagine cause of the foreshadowing whose mom it was, it was the eye roller Hutz, that I was hoping was never gonna come to class. But he was amazing. And another mom came up to me and there was another boy that really wanted to do Taekwondo. And I said, well, I said, I've looked, I said, for schools, I'll look again. If I find anything, I'll let you know. And they were like, no, you don't understand. They wanna take it with you. And I was like, I've never, you know, haven't done anything for a while, you know, let me think about it. And so I did. I thought about it all summer. And think so at this time, so when my daughter was born, I was sort of a stay-at-home mom. I figured out a job to work from home. Now my son's along you know, I substitute teach at their schools work from, you know, still working from home full-time and like, okay. Now I'm gonna add this Taekwondo thing. But it worked. I decided to go in and I said, okay. Cause I had this nagging thing. That especially, you know, this mom was like, you don't understand. He hasn't done anything in so long. His stepbrother, I think it was a stepbrother had committed suicide and he had just never really recovered from that. But this was the first time he was excited about doing something. And so I felt it in my heart that, you know, if you have students, then you have to teach. I think usually it goes the other way around. You become a teacher, then students come, but that's just not how it worked.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
So that fall, I said, okay, you know, I taught right there at the school, in the big room, which was about the size of somebody's kitchen. And I taught two classes. I split it up kindergarten and first graders, and second and up and had total of eight kids. And that boy was, was one of 'em. And as it started to grow I decided to, okay maybe I should go rent a space so I can have more people. Cause if I'm gonna do this, I may as well do this. And so I went out and rented space. Then I had a mom say something about, I'd like to do classes. I'm like, you know, you'd be the only adult, right? She's like, yep, I don't care. So that was my first adult in class. And so it just kind of, you know, started to grow. And moved I think three or four locations in Middlebury to get to a point where, you know, it was, it worked with the people I was renting and the space worked and everything else. And stayed with one location for a while and was still working the full-time job.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So I wanna go back. That moment where you're in the office and you're asking, you know I can almost see this. You're asking, so you're gonna have the kids do Taekwondo tomorrow? No, no. It's Tai Chi and wheels started turning. Do you remember what you were thinking or what you were feeling in that moment when you said if you ever need anything?
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah, I was reaching, I felt like there was a somebody threw me a line. And I fell for it. Hook line and sinker, you know to just be able to do that. And it was like coming home.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
You know, it really was. And you know, when you teach, and especially something like this, even in a short period of time, you can just see that you open their mind to a totally different system. A totally different, I don't even know what to call it, world. You know, where, you know, especially when you're working with these kids that are not in a public school setting where, you know, you stand in line and you do this and you do this, and, you know, I went in there and it was like, no, you're standing here. You're standing here, and I don't care what you, you know, you do it and you make them accountable for what they're doing, and they just eat it up. And, you know, which has always surprised me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was the thought process over the summer? You said you spent the summer kind of contemplating whether or not you were gonna do this and the way you set it out you know, the way I'm imagining is you're talking to these, these couple of moms, you're reluctant, you're nervous, you're pushing back a little bit. And yet what you just talked about was you stepping towards it. So it's okay. Ooh. Now this thing that I think I wanted, that I told myself I never wanted again, is here and I'm trying to create some distance. So talk about the summer and your deliberations.
Kellie Thomas:
So the fact that I said husband one, you know that there was…
Jeremy Lesniak:
I know, I know. There is a husband 2.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah, yeah there is a husband 2, but I had to say husband one because obviously, that did not work out. So there was that piece. I was still married at the time. But there was tension there. There was different expectations that we both had on like raising kids and that sort of thing and what my role was and you know, how much money I was bringing in and, you know, that whole kind of piece. And it was also going to mean that he would have to pick up our son at preschool because I wouldn't be home to do it. And so whether or not he could do that, leave the farm and go pick them up and…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Kellie Thomas:
You know, how much tension that was gonna cause and you know, how much time was that taking me away from the house and, you know, those kinds of questions were coming up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
And whether or not I wanted to open that kind of worms again, you know, it was fun what I did. Do I really want to buy uniforms, do this, and plus how do I do it?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because by this time it had been eight, nine years.
Kellie Thomas:
About that. Yeah. You know I still talked to the Dion's, but not a lot because we still had that, like weird things that we never said.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
So I'm like, okay, how do I even do this? How do I…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Did you bring it to them? Did you ask them?
Kellie Thomas:
I did not. For a while. I didn't, because I didn't wanna bother them with it. They were, they had left Vermont, they were running their own school in South Carolina. You know, and I was just like, it wasn't really a thing yet. And so, you know, see if I can figure it out. So I had to figure out like, what was I gonna charge? I had to figure out where was I going to buy things. You know, cause I was starting from scratch. I had no one to, you know, poke me through, how was I gonna write up a contract? You know, all those kinds of things. So it was like, do I really wanna go down this rabbit hole? And then do I have the time, do I have the energy to do it? Didn't wanna disappoint kids. You know, cause they had their whole, you know, oh, we're gonna do this thing. So there was a lot. I'd say probably my daughter really helped me because she wanted to do it. And so, you know, that was sort of the thing and she thought it would be really cool to do. And so that was probably the thing that got me over the hump . Was the fact that, you know, my daughter wanted to do it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And so for 10 years you were part-time.
Kellie Thomas:
10 years. I was part-time in that 10 years got divorced. And I was still only using one school. When we separated and he was gonna have the kids on Saturday mornings, I realized, well, I could do one or two things. I could stay home and cry. Because I miss my kids. Cause I had 'em all the time. Or well maybe I'll go and try to open up another school. So I started teaching in my second location on Saturday mornings, and I stayed with the two locations while I was working full-time. And then I would dabble in some after school programs. I was very fortunate to have a job that you know, especially after the divorce, the company I was working for was part-time. They created a full-time position for me. And I could do some from home. So I would actually like, get up at four o'clock in the morning before the kids did, do a couple hours of work at home, get them to school, go to the office. They'd allow me to leave at like 3, 2:33 so I could get to my, you know, to my classes and my afterschool programs. Come home and put the kids to bed and do some more work and whatever. So they were very, very flexible and that was the only way I could do it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
And I kept doing that for a long time.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But you reached a point where that, where you said, I'm going to teach full-time. There are a lot of people that I better are listening to this saying, you had the best of both. You had the income from a quote, real job that you were responsible for providing the income and you know, you're teaching, you're doing the thing that you love and it's probably making you some money in between the two. That's a pretty great combination. Why would you want to change that?
Kellie Thomas:
I probably struggled with that for about a year. I was, both careers were kind of neck and neck. Where I was at a good position where I was working full-time. Probably able to go into a management position was sort of like the course and, but then the Taekwondo thing was really taking off. And I was finding that between, I was working way more than, you know, 20 hours at the Taekwondo thing with, you know, cause I still did back then I did a lot of advertising. I did a lot of demonstrations. I did a lot of, so there was a lot of outside work.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
You know, teaching is a very small part of having a school. You have all the other stuff.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
That you have to do. And I was probably close to going mad, crazy, mad with, you know, everything up in the air. It was really a difficult decision until, again, a management change only, it wasn't on the Taekwondo side, it was on my full-time job. And this person that they hired was the ultimate bully as an adult bullied the people who worked in the office you know, just bullied his way. He did basically he did part of my job that he shouldn't have. And I was mad and I brought it up to the powers that me, and they were like, I was totally right, but they couldn't have disgruntled employees. So I was disgruntled because he did something and.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It was okay that you were disgruntled, but they didn't want
Kellie Thomas:
Yes, it was, it totally was. Cause you know, he was who he was and so I finally decided that I didn't need this, and so, you know, put in my resignation and got done there. And then I was like, oh, okay, now I got, I teach four nights a week, a couple of afterschool programs, and I have two children and I have mortgage and they have private school.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You did some quick math and said, wait, this doesn't work.
Kellie Thomas:
This does not work. Could not work at all. So that's when I really started kind of trying to think outside the box, because a lot of martial arts schools teach in the evenings and afternoons, but you have this whole daytime where, you know, I was supposed to be working. And so I started getting a little creative. And reaching out to preschools and gonna teach at preschools and going to do teaching gym classes. And, you know, back, you know I wrote, I did like a letter and sent them to every school in the district and, you know, I would send letters to pediatrician offices and I would send letters to guidance counselors and I would send, you know, and Jess throwing it out there and just hoping something would stick. And, you know, fortunately, it did. And so that's where it kind of started to come around and, you know it seemed to have worked.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How long did it take for you to be able to, let's say, breathe financially? You know, Okay. Alright. I didn't just ruin my life.
Kellie Thomas:
Oh. Last year probably.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Kellie Thomas:
Probably took five years, four or five years. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a long time, but at the same time, it's also not.
Kellie Thomas:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because you were figuring some stuff out. You know, one of the things I think the audience needs to understand is we leave in a pretty low-populated area. You know, if we add up the population of all the towns that you're teaching in 25,000, maybe?
Kellie Thomas:
More cows.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, there's certainly more cows. But I'm just, I'm trying to do, cause Middlebury's the biggest. Right. And what's the population of Middlebury?
Kellie Thomas:
I don't know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's not a lot.
Kellie Thomas:
Not a lot.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So know, we're not talking about building these programs in cities. We're talking about you having to be so deeply immersed in the community that it just becomes automatic that, oh, Martial Arts Master Thomas,
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. And that's a big reason why I didn't buy a building or rent a building. So I'm Taekwondo on wheels. I guess you could almost say, you know, because I rent space and I only rent it for the time that I'm there teaching. And so I travel everywhere. Because individual schools on their own are not that big. But when you combine four schools.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
That's what I need. And they're not going to travel in Vermont. People have to travel a lot for work. Last thing you wanna do is travel from work to home and then travel another 30, 40 minutes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
To go to your kids' class.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, and I know some things because, you know, we have conversations and I'm not gonna disclose anything. But I will say that if I'm remembering if my understanding is correct if we add up the schools you have in the way that most people would think of, this is my school. You have the biggest school in Vermont. I think that is true.
Kellie Thomas:
Could be. So if I look at what I call my regular students, and those are the ones that come at night so that they have, they pay individually.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Kellie Thomas:
I'm about 250 students now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a lot. That's a lot in an area where, you know, I know plenty of schools that have 20.
Kellie Thomas:
Right. But like I said, you know, each one has like, you know, 50, 60 students.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Kellie Thomas:
So that's why I had to do what I did, it's knowing that I would never get that number. Not that I knew there was a certain number I had to get to, but I knew, you know, 30 students was not gonna put food on the table for my kids you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you probably had more than that when you quit your job.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. So, and then the other programs that I run, they pay me by the class. And so usually this during the school year, there's probably a hundred preschoolers and afterschool kids. I see. So
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a lot of impact. You know, when you talked about that, if we kind of bring it back full circle, you talked about that impact. You talked about the impact that it had on you. You talked about the impact that you wanted it to have on your daughter. Is that still what drives you?
Kellie Thomas:
It is. The whole reason I teach, you know, especially when we're talking about tournaments or testings or whatever. I said, you know, my whole reason of teaching is to help increase people's self-confidence and self-worth because I lacked that growing up. And my older students, I will share with them that, you know, I was suicidal all through high school and college and in fact was a cutter in college. And you know, I tell him Taekwondo saved my life. It was the one thing that I felt good at. And in college it got bad. But by then, miss I was teaching kids and I knew, you know, it sounds awful, but you know, if you read enough, you and you know, the impact that as it was what kept me from following through. And so I wanna make sure that kids know, or even adults, cause the adults needed help too. That there is a place that they can come and be loved and be supported. And I tell my students all the time, I'm so blessed because I trained in a great school. I loved it. But there was, there were egos, there was bickering, there was, you know, stuff. But I don't have it. I don't have the drama.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I wanna talk about that because that's a subject that, you know, of course, you listen to the show, you know that we talk about that on the show, seemingly every third episode at least. And it's a subject that you and I have had a lot of personal conversation about in our strong distaste for that and what it leads to. So how do you keep that out of your school?
Kellie Thomas:
I think we, I did away with a lot of bowing, traditional bowing that I used to do when I went to school. We don't bow to the space. We only bow to whoever's teaching class, like whoever's starting class and whoever ends class. And we bow to each other when we're working with partners. But like, we don't do this whole, like if I have somebody else start class, I don't make them all bow back into me because they already bowed. And when you come into a space, I feel bowing is for people, not for space.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Kellie Thomas:
I probably would, if I had my own building with the flags and everything else, maybe I would do it differently, but maybe not. And even though now it's kind of tricky because we've had this conversation too with, you know, using pronouns like
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Kellie Thomas:
It's not sir or ma'am or Mr. Or Miss, everybody is called that. Even the youngest kid, you know, three-year-old. Three-year-old Jeremy would be, Mr. Jeremy, what do you think, you know?
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's the respect goes in both directions. It's not one way.
Kellie Thomas:
Both ways and everybody is sir or ma'am or bucks and it just for everybody. You don't have to be a certain level to be given that same breeding or that same courtesy. We don't, I don't have people bow all the black belts as soon as you see 'em, you know because we're just like everybody else. And I think that's, that may be part of it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think it's a big part of it.
Kellie Thomas:
They are right from the get-go. I don't really talk about my rank much. I did more. So again, if we talk about, you know, being a, a woman running a school that'd be one of the things that, you know, how do you match up to the rest of the schools? But it doesn't seem that important to me anymore. A lot of it has to do with the people you have gotten, I've connected with through whistlekick and realizing, oh, you know, it, it's important, but it's not all that it needs to be. And everybody seems to support each other and come together and yeah, I'm just lucky.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think it's more than luck, but it's okay. So what's next as you look into the future and your life as a martial artist?
Kellie Thomas:
I was wondering you were gonna ask me this question. My future is probably different than most that you have interviewing. I am hoping to be moving to Florida next year. Well, I've had a lot of, well I have fibromyalgia and I have osteoarthritis. Which I've already had three hip replacements, just had a knee replacement. The other one needs to be done this year and the shoulder's on its way out. I just can't handle the weather up here. And I always tell people that, you know, my heart and mind was built for Taekwondo, but obviously, my body was not I just have bad joints. I don't know why. So I'm actually hoping, that I will have people lined up to continue running kicks. And that they'll still be, you know planting seeds and growing confidence and stuff like that. And I'll be stepping out. Hope, you know, we were actually talking, it's not gonna, you know maybe Tai Chi down in Florida something. I love the movement, I love the groups. but unfortunately, now husband number two it didn't bother me that I was never home for dinner. I'm gone every Saturday morning cause I teach about 25, 30 classes a week. Now it makes a difference, you know it's time for me to have some time to go out and enjoy. I don't think I sat on my deck once last summer. you know, and it's gonna be the hardest thing I've ever done. Every time I look at these kids, you know, and I'm like, ugh. But everything happens for a reason and I have to believe that, you know, I've done this part and now I have to start taking care of myself before I can't walk anymore.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. Well, I think I've said this before and I'll say it publicly. I give it a year. You'll be down there a year before you're teaching. At most somebody will find out and they'll say, Hey, can you teach my kid? And you'll take some time to contemplate and you'll go, okay.
Kellie Thomas:
Well, if I feel better, you know, maybe, maybe.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And my understanding you didn't mention it, but my understanding is that's why Florida is that when you've spent time down there that you've felt physically much better.
Kellie Thomas:
When I'm there. I don't hurt.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Kellie Thomas:
When I'm there, I can sleep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Those are two pretty massive signs.
Kellie Thomas:
Yeah. Yeah. Up here, something always hurts and I can sleep about an hour and a half at a whack. And then up and adjusting and trying to go back to sleep. So it's hard.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I can only imagine. But look at what you've done with it. Incredible. How do you wanna end? What do you wanna say to the audience today as we fade out?
Kellie Thomas:
The best teaching advice I ever got was from Mrs. Dion, and she said, always teach with your heart. That's the most important thing. And I also wanna remind people that making sure teaching self-worth is also, I believe, more important than skill. Because if you don't feel you're worth fighting for, even with the skills, you're not going to do it. So to nurture both let them know that they're loved and cared for and they're important, and that'll help them also defend themselves and stick up for themselves and move forward.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I really hope you enjoyed this conversation. I had a great time talking to Master Kellie. I hope you had a good time listening or watching, and I hope that whether you're a new student or a longtime instructor, you found some value in there because she talked about a lot of stuff. There's a lot of detail in there that I'm wondering if everyone picked up on the first time through. This might be one that you go back and listen to again. I wanna thank Master Kellie for coming on, and I look forward to seeing you again soon. It doesn't tend to go that long before I have a conversation with her. So all of you out there, remember, if you want the full deal, all the show notes, you go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. While you're there, you can sign up for a newsletter, you could leave a tip. That's one of the things you can do over there. And if you want all the stuff that we're doing, you wanna buy something at the store, whistlekick.com. podcast15. Don't forget, we offer consulting to martial arts schools. We do a really good job helping schools grow, identifying the roadblocks that are keeping you from the revenue or the student counts that are your goals. Because guess what? Every martial arts school isn't the same and one size fits all solutions. They don't work. You can also consider joining our Patreon, go into the family page, or if you want to have me out to teach a seminar, that's also an option. I enjoy teaching. I was just at a seminar, teaching a seminar that over the weekend had a lot of fun. But that takes us to the end of another episode. You've got guest suggestions, reach-out. Topic suggestions, reach out. jeremy@whistlekick.com or for any of the other reasons that we talked about our social media, everywhere you could think of is @whistlekick. Until next time, train hard smile, and have a great day.