Episode 309 - Stop Icing Injuries with Gary Reinl
On today's episode, Jeremy talks about common misconceptions with ice treatment and why it's necessary to stop icing injuries with Gary Reinl.
Stop Icing Injuries with Gary Reinl - Episode 309
Putting ice on our bruises and injuries has been in practice for a long time and it's been generally used for recovery after a strenuous sports activity. Gary Reil believes otherwise which is why he is known to be the "anti-iceman." He believes that icing delays recovery, increases tissue damage and swelling. On this episode, Jeremy talks with Gary Reinl about the RICE protocol and why stop icing injuries. Gary Reinl is a sports medicine expert who has worked with a lot of professional athletes concerning strength building. He has written a book called ICED! that is full of scientific studies about why stop icing your injuries. Listen to find out why!
Show Notes
You can find Gary Reinl's website here.Find the book on Amazon, or Mr. Reinl on LinkedIn, Facebook and Twitter.You can also listen to his episode with WODcast here.During the conversation, Gary talked about this article and this device, the Marc Pro.
Show Notes
You can read the show notes below or download here.Jeremy Lesniak:Hey everybody, thanks for coming by. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 309. Today, we have something really different for you. It's a guest but we're here to talk about a specific topic. Specifically, I'm here with Mr. Gary Reinl and we're going to talk about icing injuries - not only isn't helpful but is actually hurting your recovery. I'm gonna let him talk about all the science, all of the background, all the information that you need but a couple of housekeeping items before we get there - you can find the show notes for this or any other episode at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com as well as our full product line at whistlekick.com. So sit back, listen up, and be ready to have your entire recovery protocol change.Hello, Mr. Reinl! Jeremy Lesniak.Gary Reinl:Hey, call me Gary. You make me feel older when you call me Mr. Reinl.Jeremy Lesniak:Okay. Well now that you have granted me that permission, you know, this might be a little bit different from other shows that you've done because well, it's a martial arts show and so we always start with respect and we'll, you know, kind of dial it back a little bit. So now that you've said I can call you Gary, I will call you Gary. How are you?Gary Reinl:01:19 How are you doing?Jeremy Lesniak:I'm doing great. It's hard as all get-out here in Vermont right now. It's day, I think, we're day 4, day 5 of 90 plus which we don't usually do.Gary Reinl:You guys are hot then because you had the water but our low in the past week has been 81 and we've been pushing up to 108 to 109.Jeremy Lesniak:Wow. You win!Gary Reinl:No, no. Again, it is entirely different. That was just on the east coast about two weeks ago and the humidity there is completely different than we have here.Jeremy Lesniak:Yeah, it is out of control.Gary Reinl:Yes.Jeremy Lesniak:It's gross. We'll have thunderstorms once in a while. We may have experienced this and it rains really hard and you'll think thank God, it will be cooler. Well no, the temperature's the same after it's just like the rain doesn't even hit the ground. It just steams off somewhere in between and you feel like you're in a greenhouse.Gary Reinl:Well the good news is you have plants and flowers and trees and things like that actually grow there.Jeremy Lesniak:Right.Gary Reinl:We don't have any of those kind of things. We have a few desert plants that actually survive on their own but you don't put a sprinkler system to a plant. It does not live where we live.Jeremy Lesniak:Right. And for the listeners, where is that?Gary Reinl:Las Vegas.Jeremy Lesniak:Well I appreciate you doing this and you know I have told the listeners a little bit about what's going on by the time we get here, you know I've recorded an intro, but you have a distinction. And I told you about this when we chatted before that you were the first non-martial artist to come on the show. And it's because you are rather passionate and that, I think, that's an understatement about something that most martial artists, most athletes of any kind take for granted and that's ice. Now I know we're gonna talk about the science, we're gonna talk about why this is so important to you, but we always start with any of our guests, we talk about background. So if you could just give us a little bit about your background and how you got from you know, I'll say the start of your professional career to where you're at now.Gary Reinl:Okay. Is that's starting now or when you come on?Jeremy Lesniak:I'm sorry, how did you get to where you're at professionally? I suppose college, you know, like where did you got school for and let's go from there.Gary Reinl:The story is one of real life where my father was a concrete man and every summer from 12 years old to all the way into my late teens, we worked on a construction site with my father. That's what we did. And I learned that I didn't really liked that at all and one day, I was putting the lime in the mixture to make some order and the lime blow up in my face - went up my nose and in my eyes - and I'm like, I'm not gonna do this. I don't like this. So I told my father, I said look, I can't do this. This ain't gonna work for me. And one of his friends trying to help guide me said, what is it that you like? And I said well, I like working late, I like running, and I like hanging out with people that lift weights and run. And he said well Gary, that's not a job. And I said yeah, there's this gym. So I opened up a gym and I attracted people to my gym that liked lifting weights and run and that's what I did the rest of my life. I never filled out a job application. I never did anything I didn't want to do or as far as what people call work. I've never even had a thought about retiring. The last thing I want to do is stop doing what I do because it's what I like to do so why will I want to stop? And it turned out to be very interesting because I'm in an age now where most of my peers, my friends growing up, have retired. And they say, when are you gonna retire? And I say, why? Did they all had jobs they didn't want to do? I never had a job I didn't want to do. The job I had, I never even considered it work. And I do it because I enjoy helping other people. Accomplish your goals in the area of concern that I have for recovery and performance. So there it is, that's how I got to where I am.Jeremy Lesniak:And where did that passion for recovery come from? Most people that end up in the gym industry seem to focus on the stimulus portion. If they're lifting weights, they focus on programming and supplements and the other things used in that kind of... the front half of the equation. But you mentioned recovery and that's the direction we're about to head. So where did the passion to that come from?Gary Reinl:What actually happened to me is that in 1973, I opened the 7th smallest gym in the world. And for anybody who goes back that far, they'll remember the old Nautilus equipment and the influence that Nautilus had on the fitness industry back in those days. And when I opened my center, people would come in and they'd want to workout. And they'd want to workout the way they had always worked out - 6, 7 days a week, maybe split sessions, just to workout the day, 5 days a week. And I said no, no, you'll workout twice a week and you'll take about 25 minutes and that's all you do. And now he's like, what? And the very essence of that two-time per week 25-minute or so workout was that you stimulated, you recovered, and then you grow. And you couldn't skip the recovery spot, you had to recover because you couldn't grow until you recovered and so right in the very start, right in the very beginning, I had put in into my process by the people who invented the Nautilus equipment, that you got to leave enough time between workouts so you can actually recover and grow. So I've always understood what you needed to do, I didn't understand recovery like I do now back in 1973 but I certainly understood that you needed enough time between your stimulus periods for the muscles to recover and grow. So don't think I do it on purpose. I think I did it because it was 08:01 and once I understood it was like okay, well what's the next question? You have to recover before you can grow.Jeremy Lesniak:Right. And it's something that I think, as people start to think about it, it makes a lot of sense; the idea that you can't hammer your body constantly and have it work. You can't, you know, red-line a car constantly and not have the engine blow. Doesn't matter what we're talking about, that recovery, that growth adaptation phase is critical and it happens. You know we're talking about weightlifting here in a sense but it applies in martial arts just as well. Whether we're talking about strength or we're talking about speed or we're talking about accuracy with techniques or working your central nervous system to understand how to process certain movements, we need that recovery.Gary Reinl:What you can find out and yes, of course, I agree 100 percent with what you just said. But what happens to most people, if they make a fundamental flaw in their judgement and that they'll say once they buy into the fact of recovery, this is okay, I believe you gotta recover. And what they'll do is that they'll introduce a term that is very common in the conversation of gym-goers and they'll call it over-training. So they'll say well, you know, I'm a little stale or I'm over-training or... and I look at them and say how do you know that? Tell me how you know that. And they'll be like well you know, because I can do three sets of 10 and now I can't even get one set of 10 and two sets of seven so I know I'm not actually getting weaker. I know that I'm over-training. And I say well, you don't know that at all. No, no, no, I know I'm getting weaker. I mean, I know my workout. And I say no, until we go over a fundamental question, tell me everything you're doing to facilitate recovery. That's a fair question, right?Jeremy Lesniak:Absolutely.Gary Reinl:Tell me what you’re doing to facilitate recovery. Because until you can demonstrate to me that you over-trained, I need to know if in fact you're over-trained or under-recovered. And if you look at me and can't give me any reasonable response to what you're doing to facilitate recovery. Oh you know, I drink a shake. I take a recovery shake after I train. Okay, well that's not enough, just so you know. That's not really how it works. And what most people who claim to be over-trained, they're not over-trained at all. They're actually under-recovered and they haven't made an effort to facilitate recovery of any significant level. And as a result, they all back-off their training thinking they are in fact over-trained. When in reality, they're simply under-recovered and then with a little bit of effort, they'd be able to train even harder and get even better results than they thought they were falling back so I make them go beyond where they were before. But they don't realize that there's something you can do to recover. And if you're going to gym today, I don't think it matters where you go, with whether it'd be a martial arts studio or whether it'd be a gym or a CrossFit or whatever it might be, almost everybody has poor recovery tools. And some of the recovery tools will be the rollers that you kind of roll on that, go over your muscles and help them feel better. Foam rollers they call them and there's different names. They are not all foam anymore. And I'll look at them and say how do you treated out your problem? 11:44 Chris would say, you know, 11:45 it's in your recovery area in the gym. And I say well that's not recovery, though. And you have to think about it, you have to run process on yourself and say what does that mean, it's not recovering? Well just look at the intent of a foam roller and what are you trying to do? You trying to break adhesion, you're trying to find a dead spot and roll it out and break the tissue and free it up. Well that can't possibly be considered recovery. You're causing damage. The nature of the process is to cause damage. So how could that possibly be recovery?Jeremy Lesniak:Right.Gary Reinl:And yet, nearly everyone that I speak to considers that part of their recovery program when in fact it's not recovery at all. Or they'll go on something like the graph and tools or the hawk grip tools. I don't know whether you use them or not. Are you familiar with that?Jeremy Lesniak:I am, I am. Yeah.Gary Reinl:Okay so...Jeremy Lesniak:But we might have some folks listening who aren't.Gary Reinl:Well, so what they look like, they look like a butter knife, to tell you the truth. And they take the blunt end of the butter knife and kind of rub it across your muscles to help break-up adhesion. And they'll call that part of recovery. That's not recovery. The intent is to cause tissue damage. How could that possibly be recovery? And so the point becomes who's gotta look and say what am I doing to pursue a better recovery? Well to understand that you have to know what recovery means. What does it mean? Well, it means that that which was damaged heals, pretty simple. Recovery is just another word for nothing left to heal. So if you're feeling recovered, you're healed, pretty simple. So don't say things like oh you know, I use ice. I put ice on. And we'll see how will that help. Well you know, it helps reduce swelling and helps the tissues mend. Neither of those things are true, by the way. It doesn't reduce swelling, it actually increase the swelling and it doesn't facilitate healing of the tissue. It actually slows down the process. So when you know what I know based on the reading of the literature because a lot of people by the way, just little paragraph there, a little parenthesis, people often say what's your opinion? I don't have an opinion. I'm reporting facts to you. I'm not a reporter, I'm not a scientist. I simply went and read everything and organize the facts. And in fact, when you put ice on damaged tissue, you delay the healing process, you increase swelling, you cause additional damage and you shut off the signals that alert your harmful movement and you need movement to solve the problem and you need those signals to alert you to harmful movement. So it doesn't help; it actually makes things worse. That isn't part of recovery. You're going the wrong direction. Until you get to a spot which it will help me understand recovery, okay? Great. Now we're on a good spot. You're gonna get yourself talking about what it means to recover - what it means to recover is tissue that was damaged is now fully recovered or healed. That's it. And so what makes that happen? Well, let's pick what stops it or slows it down. What slows it down is congestion. So say you trained really hard or in the martial arts you took a nasty blow to your thigh and you know, a kick came through and it just caught you right in the middle of your quad and it just 15:12 and it's got a bruised beginning to form, you know. Because the bruise is just broken capillaries where the blood is leaking out where it doesn't belong. So you know it's damaged, you know the tissue is damaged. And you say how does that translate back to recovery? Well let's just look at what happens. If you allow that congestion to just sit there, it will delay or inhibit the human process. Because that congestion will beget congestion which will begin to slow the process down of the movement of nourishment and supplies and ways to and from the area. So the good stuff in and the bad stuff out, is basically blocked because of the congestion, the blood and the dead cells from the muscle that were crushed. So you'll say how do you get it out? Okay, that's really more important question because that is the essence of the whole point - how do you get it out? And you'll look at a damaged tissue and you say well, I always heard you should do the R.I.C.E. protocol: rest, ice, compress and elevation. But it's completely wrong. I realized the first time you're hearing someone say that, you might go wait a minute, what did you just say? What do you mean it's wrong? It's wrong. It has nothing to do with managing and facilitating the healing of damaged tissue. Here's where it started. In 1962, a young boy by name of Everett Knowles, 12 years old, hopped a free train in Somerville, Massachusetts, cheering for himself, put his arm out and gave that yay, I did it. And with that 16:55 and ripped his arm right off his body. Tore it right off his torso. Fell to the ground thinking he broke his arm, picked up his jacket with his arm in it. So there's this kid, doesn't have his arm attached to him or he thinks he broke his arm which is actually detached. So he makes his way up the hills. Some guys at a factory 17:16They get him over the Mass. General. And at Mass. General, a young doctor, his name was Ronald Malt, makes a historic decision. Well let's saw it back on. You understand in '62 that never happened before. They never reattached a severed body part so it hadn't been done. But Malt said, we got a fully intact arm with a perfectly healthy 12-year old, let's saw this thing back on. So in the meantime, while they were figuring out what they were going to do in the operating room and get the docs together who they would need to do this historic surgery. Malt gave an order, put that arm on ice. You know, while we're figuring this out, put the arm on ice to slow down the rotting of the tissue that's no longer connected to the body. And that was the beginning of the ice myth. That simple statement, put that arm on ice. Now it had to do with preserving a severed body part, it had nothing to do with putting it on a bruise on your leg where someone just kicked you in, okay? But it translates to the public as oh if you got hurt, put ice on it. No, what Malt said was if you have a severed body part, keep it out the sun, put it on ice so it doesn't rot. So now they get done the surgery and the kid comes out and he survives the surgery makes the worldwide news. And the young boy leaves the hospital, he waves and that makes worldwide news. When I say worldwide, it was everywhere. It was in all of the shows, all the new shows. It was on Life Magazine, Time Magazine and there was another one back then but I don't remember the name but there's a third magazine. It made worldwide. Dr. Malt traveled the world teaching other doctors what they did to reattach a severed body part. Now with that, the news media which was very limited back in those days, it is not like now there was three or four out and that was it, and you got the news each night at six o'clock. The reporters asked the question, when this happens, if this happens, what do we need to know? Now watch carefully what happened: they said remain calm, don't panic, and that became Rest. Keep the severed body part out of the sun, out of the heat, put on ice if you have it - that became Ice. Use a tourniquet to prevent the bleed out on the intact area, and that became Compression. And Elevation is simply keep the intact part above the heart 19:50 the blood flow. So the life protocol has nothing whatsoever to do with getting kicked in the quad in a Karate match, in a martial arts match. Nothing to do with that. It had to do with preserving the severed body part and preventing the bleed out. That's all. It's completely misrepresented in the public. Now that was in the early '60s so if you know people from that era, and I do and I talked to them, I've interviewed dozens of people from that era, and I was at that time about 9 years old then so I don't remember myself but I interviewed people who were adults then and even some doctors who were around at Mass. General at that time. And what they will tell you is that, when I grew up for example, in the late '50s, early '60s, when I grew up, we were told walk it off. Don't just sit, it'll tighten up. Having no idea why that was so, everyone I grew up with knew that. No one ever told us the rest, no one ever told us to compress it, no one ever told us to put ice on it and have it, elevating it, whatever that word meant. And then, as that progressed in '62 when the surgery occurred, till '78, when the doctor, his name was Gabe Murkin, and M.D., Harvard-trained doc, named what was happening in the public. And he named it R.I.C.E. - rest, ice, compression, elevation. And with that, in his 1978 sports medicine book, Dr. Murkin immobilized that protocol. It was there. Today, you could go to basically anyone in the field, from a school nurse to an athletic trainer to an M.D. to a D.C. to an A.T.C. to a P.T., everyone knows it. An ambulance driver? Everybody knows the R.I.C.E. protocol. The problem is it's wrong. And when I say it's wrong, well maybe some listeners will say what, hold on. How about if I could prove to you that the doctor who invented the R.I.C.E. protocol has not only publicly recanted, said I made this up in my 1978 sports medicine book. Research has clearly shown I was wrong and with this specific reference to the fact that is causes additional damage. If I could prove he has publicly recanted and wrote the foreword to the Anti-Ice Man's book, which is me, would you at least listen? Because google my name and you'll his name in the front of my book. And with that, I get people's attention, generally. Because they're like I never heard this before. The reason why you haven't heard this before is because the vast majority of people are still unaware of the fact that the R.I.C.E. protocol had nothing to do with managing damaged tissues and certainly, it had nothing to do with facilitating the healing process. Nothing to do with that. And when you come back and you find this out and you say, wait a minute the doctor made it up, said he was wrong? And then he wrote the foreword to the Anti-Ice Man's book? Yes. So from that point, I'll basically say next question.Jeremy Lesniak:So let me jump in here because we've just jumped into something big. I mean this is big stuff and as you've said, everybody "knows" the R.I.C.E. protocol. They know how important it is. They know that ice is critical to handling an injury. Martial artists get banged up. We get hurt. In fact I doubt I could talk to anybody outside of maybe a light recreational Tai Chi program who has spent more than 6-12 months training who hasn't suffered some major contusion or twisting an ankle or elbows at a whack, and the first thing that everybody talks about is ice. I was at a competition this weekend and I watched people putting ice on them. Now I knew we were recording today so I kind of delayed talking to them about it because let's be honest, I'm not as good as articulating this stuff as you are. This is your passion, you have the knowledge. All I can really do is repeat things that you're saying because you've really... I mean you're the one kind of leading this movement here. So I guess the question that anybody out there listening would say now wait a second, we're pretty much talking about a conspiracy. Maybe not an organized one but it has that same effect. You can't be the only person who knows this. You said that the gentleman, the doctor, who had coined that acronym has recanted, why isn't this bigger news? Why aren't people shouting from the rooftops, in this day and age of the internet when your information spreads in a matter of minutes, that this is wrong?Gary Reinl:Well I can tell the reason because I'm in the middle of it. What's going on is this: the ice business has become big business. And people sell ice machines that compress you while they ice you. They have machines that costs tens of thousands of dollars that blow cold air on you. They have machines that provide very tight wrappings around you. They have things that can measure how cold it is. There's all of this business and I would say I worked with over a hundred professional athletic teams and a couple of hundred colleges and universities. And I can't think of a single training room that hasn't spent tens of thousands of dollars with icing products. And for 25 years, they've been icing people. So let me tell you a real story that just happened. I had a former head trainer from one of the major leagues - so we're talking NFL, NBA, Major League Baseball, NHL - so a head trainer from one of those organizations, been there for many, many years. And what he said was I don't believe what you're saying. And I said well what part you don't believe? I don't believe it because I did it my whole career and I know how effective it is. I said, well did you ever not do it? Well of course, not. Well then how would you know that what you're doing wasn't easy to perform better? How would you know that? Well, everybody ices. Now, okay that's a very weak argument so let's just go and say why would that trainer who spent decades in national position believe that icing works? And why would he not be willing to admit today that he was wrong? Well one, imagine you were the person who was responsible for multi-million dollar athletes and you iced them and I now have clinical proof - read out the medical literature, by the way, this isn't my opinion, I'm quoting and referencing the articles of the research that's been done, the 27:16 reviewed in their literature, okay so it's not my stuff, it's not in Shape Magazine, we're talking about in the medical literature - imagine all these years, you mismanaged all those players and you caused people to have delayed recovery and maybe inadequate recoveries. Maybe you even caused some players to never get better and not make it back to the game? Are you going to admit that now? I mean just think about the pressure on them. In their own minds, here they thought they did such a great job for all of these decades but in fact, those people who didn't get better likely didn't get better because they were mismanaged and is nearly always had to do with icing. And you say well, can't they just admit it that they were wrong? No. In my experiences, no, they can't admit it. And so let's say you will go to a national conference that just happened a few weeks ago and at a national conference, a group of people who support the information that I've organized and presented, one of them spoke to the key note speaker and said so what do you think about this trend away from icing towards active recovery? And this famous doctor, I'm quoting now what they told me he said so I'm assuming it's correct, he said what trend? Now since that was so easy to quote, I believe that's actually the quote that he said. When asked doctor, what can you think about this trend away from icing towards active recovery? His response, what trend? Now is there any chance that that doctor is that ignorant? In other words, he's that unaware of the fact? He doesn't know that icing delays healing, increases swelling, causes additional damage, and shuts off the signal that alert your harmful movement and you need movement to solve the problem? Is there any chance he's unaware of all the facts? Not likely. Not someone at that level. But let's just say he doesn't want to know the facts. So he hears about an article but doesn't actually read it. Now why would he not want to present that information to his audience? He's the key note speaker, it means all the top sports medicine docs from the country are at the meeting. Why, you know, all the ones who attend, I mean not every single person comes but you know what I mean, the audience is full of all these experts who all ice.Jeremy Lesniak:There's always a risk in doing that, in you know, deviating from the norm.Gary Reinl:If you're the keynote speaker, you're going to tell the whole audience what they're doing is wrong?Jeremy Lesniak:Yeah.Gary Reinl:Not likely.Jeremy Lesniak:I wouldn't.Gary Reinl:I stand up and do it all the time but I'm not the keynote speaker at that big meeting. And then in the audience, you have all the people who have been doing it for all of these years. They clearly are not going to admit that what they're doing is wrong. I'm there, I know what they won't do. So you have this problem where the reason you haven't heard about it mainstream is simple and basically because they don't want you to know. They're not going to admit that what they're doing is wrong. They've been doing it so long and to so many people that to admit it now would mean that they're in trouble with their process. And I'll give you what the trouble would be. And I've been advised not to make those comment and I think this will be the first time I ever did it on air. I have been contacted by more than several sport agents. Now, follow me because it's really important. And these sports agents say to me Gary, we've heard what you're saying. In fact most had listened to at least a podcast or two that I had been on or wrote an article about me in some magazine or something and they say can you prove what you're saying? I say I don't need to prove it, it's already been proven and here are the references and you know, give me your email I'll send them to you right now and here they are. And they say well, would you be willing to be a professional witness? I'm like why would you want me as professional witness? Get one of the doctors who publicly acknowledged it. Now here's a list of a dozen doctors, orthopedic surgeons who no longer tell their patients to ice. So why would you want me? I mean I'll do it for you but why would you want me? Why wouldn't you want to get an orthopedic surgeon and tell you why you shouldn't do it? And then of course you start to realize what's going on. And what's going on is this: the agents are saying... Say you're an agent for a player, okay? And that player was promised a five million dollar performance bonus if they did A, B, and C, right? But they got hurt halfway through the season and the trainers consistently iced that player - iced him in the morning, iced him at lunch, iced him before dinner, tell him to ice at home - and the player doesn't get better and doesn't receive his performance bonus. Five million dollars is a lot of money. That will get your attention. But if you're the agent, you'll get 15% of that, it's sort of about $750,000. You think anybody's ever gonna bring this up in court? That your mismanagement of my athlete or my client caused him to not earn their performance bonus and we want the money. Now people say to me now Gary, you 33:05 Hold on, hold on. How long ago was it you would've said I'll be stretching at about concussion management? And how long ago would you have set out I was stretching about the abuse of opioids in sports? Cause only a few years ago, those two things changed. I'm telling you right now, it's coming. I see it. I see the bright light coming down the track through the tunnel and it's coming full speed. And people are starting to realize that wait a minute, you mean if I don't ice someone, that's more defensible than if I do ice them? Because a lot of people say well you know, I'm just doing what everybody does. No, that's not the way evidence medicine works. Evidence-based medicine works like this: if there's evidence to support what you're doing, that's your defense. If there is evidence that says what you're doing is wrong, that's not you defense; that's what the other side uses against you. Well the literature is clear. Icing damage tissue, delays healing, increases swelling, causes additional damage, and shuts off the signals alert your harmful movement and you need movement to solve the problem. This is very simple stuff. It's very clear in the literature. There have been worldwide reviews on them since 2004 - 2013, The British Journal Sports Medicine; 2008, Journal of Emergency Medicine; 2004, the Journal of Athletic Medicine Research; and 2004 the American Sports Magazine I believe that's last and I might have it wrong but it's something like that. Four worldwide reviews, okay? Conclusion, I'm summarizing but conclusion, although popular, there's no evidence whatsoever that helps and I add to that, and there is undeniable proof that is cause additional damage, that delays the healing process, and that it increases swelling; undeniable proof. And you say, what? But everybody does it. Well hold on, no they don't. Listen to some of the interviews I've done. I now have players from all 30 major league baseball teams, over 200 major league pitchers confirmed using our recommended muscle activation technique which is called Marc Pro. It's a device that's available for sale, but that's not the point in this. It's an active recovery technique that I just happened to recommend the Marc Pro and that's what the players are using. So I have over 200 major league pitchers using Marc Pro and many, if not most, use none or very little ice. And in fact, one of the most famous pitchers last year, Corey Kluber, if you listened to the interview, I did it with him. Just put in Corey Kluber, Marc Pro and it'll pop right out for you and you'll see Corey say I don't like my 36:04 makes you feel junky. I don't like it. I use this and 36:08 my whole career. And he doesn't use ice. And I can name you a couple dozen other major league pitchers that don't use ice. And yeah, if you asked or if you looked around, you'd think they all use ice. No, they don't. No, they don't. And in major universities, I have at a minimum of several dozen, I'm certain there's more than that but for this purpose I'll say several dozen universities in the country - college universities, where the pitching 36:35 there's no ice. And yet in baseball, all the pitchers use ice, right?Jeremy Lesniak:Yeah.Gary Reinl:It's not true anymore. Now, seven years ago, when I started working with pitchers, basically, mostly, all of them use ice. And then I started asking them question - why are you doing it? Well, it helps with healing. And I say well how did that work? Well what do you mean? It helps with healing. How did that work, how does it help? Oh, well it flushes blood in or something. No, it actually doesn't do that. It actually stops the blood flow so that's not what we do. And why would you think you would need to do that, anyway? You think that your immune system doesn't know how to manage that damaged tissue? And the other thing about this, because this isn't a theory, I'm saying right now, this is like this plain, straight thinking. Do you actually believe that your innate intelligence, your immune system, doesn't know how to properly manage damaged tissue? When you're thinking about this, you think it does it wrong? And if you think it does it wrong, you think it does it wrong every time for every person? Do you really believe that? Do you think there's any chance that every time someone gets hurt, their immune system mismanages in recovery process, the healing process? Does that even make sense?Jeremy Lesniak:No.Gary Reinl:No, it doesn't make sense, doesn't it? Well I'll prove it to you it doesn't work, by the way. It's not true. Have you ever looked in the mirror on the back of your arm or the back of your shoulders or something, seen a bruise? And it's no longer purple, it's kind of like yellowish, greenish so you know it's been there for a while? You've seen that, it once happened to you, right?Jeremy Lesniak:Sure.Gary Reinl:And I bet all of your listeners can say yeah, yeah I know that happened to me one time. Well let me ask you a question, how did that happen? And you'll go I don't really remember when it happened. And so long how long had it happened? I don't really know how long ago it happened. And so what have you been doing to cause that tissue to heal and to cause the evacuation of that waste? What have you been specifically been doing? But you need to know it was there and you didn't even know what happened. So you haven't done anything and yet your immune system's handling is just perfectly fine, isn't it?Jeremy Lesniak:Yeah.Gary Reinl:So when you don't know about it, your immune system does a perfect job of healing off the broken vessels, growing a clot, repairing the vessel, dissolving a clot, normalizing flow in some 3-10 days or so, dilating the healthy surrounding vessels, increasing profusion to the area, in other words bringing in the repair and clean-up crew, and packaging the waste for evacuation along your lymphatics. It did that all by itself but when you roll your ankle or you got kicked in the quad, suddenly your immune system doesn't know how to do it. Now that is utterly absurd to think that it doesn't know how to do it or mismanages it. And there are people that will say, if you hear the other ones who like to just point out that I'm wrong which I've never seen anybody point out I was wrong and state a fact, by the way. So if they put me up on the internet, you'll see that there are people saying I'm stupid, I'm unqualified, I don't know what I'm talking about. You'll see all that. But you'll never see them point out something that I just said that wasn't clinical fact. The human body, when you're damaged, repairs itself and it works like this. The human body's designed to self-repair not self-destruct. If it's self-destructing then figure out why I make the appropriate change - it's that simple. If we didn't know how to self-repair, your immune system didn't know how to fix the problem, honestly, we wouldn't still be here. Now you gotta think about that because if it didn't know how to self-repair, we would've have died off long ago. It knows how to self-repair. And it self-repairs not by trapping the waste in and around the damaged site and preventing circulation which is what icing and compression do. Now do a simple test to yourself. I know we're over the air and not in person but everybody listening, just do this. I promise it's simple. Take your hand and go around your opposite wrist and squeeze it like a compressor, okay? Now while I'm doing that, I'd like you to answer this question for me, okay?Jeremy Lesniak:Sure.Gary Reinl:So you're squeezing, right? You're doing it?Jeremy Lesniak:Mm-hmm.Gary Reinl:Are you only compressing the in or the in and out vessels? It's really important, tell me what you think you're doing. Are you compressing only the in or the in and out?Jeremy Lesniak:Well, it's got to be in and out because I can't imagine that they're grouped in any kind of way that I could miss them.Gary Reinl:Of course. So you're a hundred percent correct and nobody's ever disagree with that. There's a thousand people that I questioned, all thousands of them said well yeah, you couldn't just do the in. You gotta get both. Okay. So let's think about compression. They tell you they're gonna do compression, you roll your ankle or whatever and they tell you to wrap it. You know, limit the swelling. And you'll say well okay, you're gonna limit the swelling up. Okay, I'm just gonna ask you a question, are you sure there's too much? In other words, you get too much fluid coming to the side, are you sure?Jeremy Lesniak:I don't...Gary Reinl:Oh yeah, yeah, you don't want too much come in there. Okay but you're wrapping it before you know how much is coming. So do you have a way of gauging how much is coming to know that in fact, there's going to be too much? If it's 5% too much, 71% too much, 42% too much, or right feet different to left feet or hands 41:59 You see the little problem?Jeremy Lesniak:I do.Gary Reinl:How in the world could you restrict something if you don't know in fact that it's too much or not? Maybe it's not even enough, you don't even know. But you have no way of measuring how much is there. So you don't really know if there's too much or too low or just enough. And you don't know whether it's 5% or 80% or 3% or I'm different than you 42:22 different hands, you don't know any of that! So imagine if I came to you and I said look I want you to do something but I have no idea what you should do but I just want you to do because I think it's a good idea. What would you tell me? I mean look, you would think that I was dumbest person talking to you. What are the odds... why would I do something like that? Okay, that's what compression does - you have no idea what you're compressing to. So let's just say you were right and you should compress it and somehow you figured out how much they're compressed, okay? Now you compress the area, remember you're squeezing around the top of your wrist there and you're shutting it down so that the good stuff can't get it. So you're stopping it, you're really slowing it down so it doesn't swell even though your immune system has sent that fluid to the area by dilating the healthy surrounding vessels and increasing profusion so the fluid coming to the area is sent there on purpose by your immune system. It's not some arbitrary archaic event. It is a well-orchestrated process where the fluid is being sent to the damage site to mobilize your repair and clean-up crew and package the waste for evacuation. But you're smarter than your immune system so you're gonna compress it. Okay, now let's go back to this. Reverse question. You're compressing it, you've acknowledged that in fact you're compressing the in and out vessels. So let me make sure I understand exactly what you say you're going to do, okay? Carefully, everybody listen. You're telling me you're going to deliberately trap the waste in and around the damaged site. That's what you told me you were going to do. You're going to deliberately prevent the waste from evacuating the damaged site. Does that sound like a good idea to you?Jeremy Lesniak:No. Sounds terrible.Gary Reinl:Why would anyone do that? And by the way, again, I guess thousands of people that question how a single person 44:15 yeah, you wanna trap the waste in and around the damaged site. No one's ever said that and yet they all wrap them; they wrap on them. I was just at the National Athletic Trainer's Association Meeting in New Orleans last week. I had several hundred athletic trainers combined to see me, to hear what I'm telling you right now. And basically, every one of them, when I got done they went, this is crazy. We're all doing it wrong. They all said it in different ways but most of them that was the point they said - we're all doing it wrong. And I said no, you're not all doing it wrong. I couple name a hundred they're doing it right. And now if you don't do it wrong anymore, you'll add to the pile of people doing it right. And what I pointed out to these trainers is a very simple point. The difference between the middle of the heat and the top of the heat are results. If you're in the middle of the heat, in other words you're a trainer in a university and you're trying to work your way into the top with the pros. So with the top of the heat is the pros and the middle of the heat is the people at the collegiate level. Now that doesn't mean if you're at the high school level you aren't in the middle of the heat. That's not the point. The point is that there's the middle, once you're done training the middle you're on top but their education's identical. Their credentials are identical. They have the exact same letter you add to a name with the same test. The difference is results and whoever gets the best results gets to the top of the heat. And I look at people and I ask them, well let me ask you, Tom, may I ask you a simple question? Do you believe if you continue to do what you used to do, what you just told me you used to do, you'll be closer to the top of the heat or closer to the middle if you stop doing it and do what I just told you? Every single person acknowledges that if I stop doing it, I'll get closer to the top of the heat. Of course, you will! Well what you're doing is wrong. Resting doesn't work. There's not a chance in the world that rest works. There is not a chance in the world that putting ice on works. There's not a chance in the world that compression area works. It has to do with preserving a severed body part preventing a bleed out when you amputate a body part. It's all it is. There's nothing to do with managing damaged tissue. When you manage damaged tissue what you want to do is very simple, it's not complicated. What you want to do is you congest the area. You don't want to prevent the fluid from getting to the site. That's wrong, that's a misguided thought because firstly, you wouldn't know how much to prevent so how would you do it? But that fluid is being sent there deliberately and you have to assume your immune system's doing it right. Remember, that immune system is the same system that puts eyelashes where they belong and fingernails where they belong. So right before you think you're smarter than your innate intelligence, just think about where you put a fingernail and where you put in eyelash. Because your immune system puts it right where it belongs. So high probability that otherwise healthy people their immune system is responding in the best possible way to damaged tissue. So you've got this damaged tissue and you know, you're kicked in the quad in a martial arts event and that really starts to hurt. It starts to swell and the blood bruise and all, and you can see the bruise and the blood 47:36 it's starting to get more swollen, it's more 47:39 and hurting more. Okay, now let's just think about it for a second. Here's the solution. Stay still, put ice on it and tightly wrap the area. Now how in the world could that possibly solve the problem? And yet, that's what nearly everyone would do unless you understand. Now if you understand you'd say okay, I've got damaged tissue, I've got congestion forming, I rely on my immune system to stop the bleeding and to repair this damaged site. So what is the only obstacle that I can manage right now? What can I do? Well what you can do it decongest the area and then the only reasonable question from my perspective would be how do you decongest the area? How does that work? Well, the particles are too big to go back to your venules, back to your veins, so they got to go back to what's called the lymphatic system. We've got some 165,000 miles or more, maybe 300,000 in big people, but whatever. There's a bunch of miles of lymphatic vessels in your body and they're basically passes. And they move ways through the system by activating the muscles around the vessels. I look at it, it looks like you're milking a cow backwards. So every time the muscles squeeze around the vessels, they push the waste up the chamber, that empty chamber has a negative pressure that pulls more waste in, out of the interstitial space so the waste is evacuated. That's the way the lymphatic works. If you want to visualize it, it's a lot like a garbage disposal system and if you look at your sink, it's kind of backed up and you haven't pushed that button on the wall and you see some vegetables floating to the top and dirty water start to accumulate then you push the button, off it goes. It's all gone. Well that's how your lymphatic system works. So when you look at it and say well why don't I activate muscles around my lymphatic vessels and move that waste out of there so the area's not be congested so my immune system, my innate intelligence, can repair the tissue? Well that's what you do. If you do that otherwise healthy people will heal in a fraction of the time. I have an article out called Procrastination: A Fundamental Flaw In Injury Management 3. Just put my name in, put procrastination in my name, Reinl, it will pop up, it's totally free. There's nothing for sale, just go and get it. Read it. In the article, I'll explain to you what happens if you let it sit. We have cut the rate of recovery in half in hundreds of cases across the country. And I'll tell on the air, well we didn't put it in print, it's not hundreds of thousands. It's thousands. And we haven't cut it in half, it's even more than that. But my co-author asked me why don't we just stay with half? Because why make any bigger acclaim, that's plenty of acclaim. I can tell you right now, it's faster than half the time. And what we do is decongest the area by activating muscles around the vessels, exactly the same thing as I was told in the late '50s and '60s, walk it off. Because all walking it off did was cause the muscles around the lymphatic vessels to milk that cow backwards, pushing that button on the garbage disposal so that waste evacuate. You evacuate the waste, the tissue heals. You leave the waste sitting in around at the damaged site and you will suffocate and kill, otherwise, parts of the healthy cells in the area that were not involved in the initial trauma, they will suffocate and die. You will get 51:22scarring from the lack of movement, what we call adhesions, and you will have subsequent issues atrophy from the lack of motion. If you simply and basically decongest the site right up front, don't let it sit there, don't let it accumulate, don't try to block it, for heaven's sakes, because it brings in the repair and clean-up crew, it's gonna package the waste for evacuation. Don't try to seal it off with a bandage. Remember, if you seal it off, you're trapping the ways in and around the damaged site. So here you are thinking you're preventing the stuff from getting there which you shouldn't have done in the first place but in fact, besides not letting the good stuff get in, you're stopping the bad stuff from getting out. So clearly that's not the right path. You simple just decongest the area and the immune system will step over and the human body will self-repair.Jeremy Lesniak:Wow. Now of course we're gonna link to your book and this article you mentioned and the other things that we've spoken about today. I think at this point anyone listening either has their fingers in their ears, which would make for a terrible listening experience to a podcast, or they're accepting what you're saying or at the very least, they're willing to learn more. So we're gonna help them get in that direction. I wanna switch gears a little bit now and talk about what people should be doing instead and I'd like to look at it from the perspective of yes, the individual but more so, I'm sure we have a lot of martial arts school owners and instructors and trainers effectively out there who are going to want to implement something different after hearing your words but aren't quite sure what they should be telling people. So maybe you can speak to what each of those groups might want to consider for moving forward.Gary Reinl:Sure. The good news is it's ancient wisdom. Just walk it off. Keep moving. Stillness is the enemy. Don't sit still, you've got to move that waste through your system. You’ve got to mobilize your repair and clean-up crew. So you can use a device like we use like the Marc Pro and it works wonderfully and lets you work whatever area you needed to work. You can simply move your muscles by activating like if you know anything, you have many experience in that, you know, physical therapy or not a fighting-training setting, they'll tell you to do ankle pumps and they'll tell you to kind of move your foot back and forth and kind of flex your calf muscle and muscles in your foot. And that will help move the waste along out of your lower body. It works perfectly fine. If it's your hand or your forearm or your elbow area, you can squeeze a light ball and you'll activate the muscles. That's all it takes. The human body provides a self-repair and a self-destruct. It's that simple. And it does that via muscle activation. So you'll activate the muscles, you move the waste along and you clear the path for the nourishment and supplies to come and fix the problem and you will self-repair. Now that's otherwise healthy people. We're not talking about the extremes that are dying in a hospital or a hospice, okay? We're talking about the otherwise healthy people. They will self-repair. Now, does it help to have a good diet? Sure. Does it help to be adequately hydrated and rested? Of course, yes. I'm expecting that you are adequately hydrated and nourished and rested. Can you eat some food that are better than others to facilitate healing? Of course. That information is all available in the internet or in books, whatever. I mean who doesn't know that eating a piece of a broccoli is better than eating a broccoli-flavored potato chip? I mean, come on. Of course it is. So just use your head and eat that food. Drink things that are nourishing. Waters are great, by the way. It's a wonderful product. There are other things that you can do to help rehydrate the body if in fact you are dehydrated. One of the things, I don't want to say a brand name but I say this because so many people are drawn to a false product and another one of the product that is very popular but there's little to rehydrate your body, I won't say that name but there is a product called the right stuff and the right stuff really is the right stuff. So if you don't want to use the right stuff, that's perfectly fine. I can tell you basically all of my customers do. So the hundred plus pro teams that I work with, they all use it. Now that said, just google the right stuff, see what they got, go find something else like that if you don't want to use theirs. But in the process, read why the popular stuff isn't good for you. And the popular stuff is more of a social drink and if you want a social drink, that's fine but just realize that's not gonna help rehydrate you. So get a good rehydration product, drink water, eat good, clean food, and get adequate rest and then decongest the area. To decongest the area, that is the key. If you get the congestion out, the subsequent downstream problems don't happen. And here they are; the downstream problems are you suffocate and kill otherwise perfectly healthy cells. So you get the waste out and that doesn't happen. If you leave the waste sit there, you won't have as good a movement and reorganization of repaired tissue so you all of this scarring or what we call adhesion and anybody who's ever had the pleasure of someone breaking your adhesions post-trauma, so you hurt yourself and now you got to go back to therapy to get your arm to move again because you have adhesions that are preventing them from moving. But please, just trust me, it's better not to get the adhesion.Jeremy Lesniak:It is unpleasant.Gary Reinl:So you have to get the waste out.Jeremy Lesniak:Absolutely.Gary Reinl:Cause there is just no point to it. It's like why did you let that happen? Well get the congestion out. There's three things that happen in healing. We didn't say this at all until right now but there's three things. There's inflammation, repair, and remodel. These are the three steps to healing. They're not my three steps. Google. You'll see that everybody agrees, basically. Some places call it proliferation and maturation instead of repair and remodel. Who cares? Same thing. It's inflammation, repair, and remodel. If you went to the fancy school, you might say proliferation and maturation. Whatever. It's repair and remodel. So if you keep the area decongested, then what you have is the opportunity for the tissue to not mend in a folly way. And you don't get those adhesions so you don't have that issue downstream to break the adhesions and basically slow down your rehab process. And then beyond the process of getting the tissue to remodel and not have the adhesions well the next thing is preventing the disuse atrophy. Because the disuse atrophy is the result of not using. That's why it's called disuse atrophy. So if you use it, you don't lose it. So you get hurt or you have the surgery and you expect that you're going to have the muscles shrink, you expect that you're going to have adhesions called the scarring, and you expect that you're going to suffocate and kill otherwise perfectly healthy cells because of the congestion. Well get rid of the congestion and the downstream stuff doesn't happen. Well that sounds pretty simple. Right. That's how we're cutting recovery time in half across our system. And our system, by the way, isn't something we invented. Our system is just saying what's supposed to happen. Well what's supposed to happen is the tissue will stop the bleeding, so it's called hemostasis, and it stops bleeding, and then the inflammatory response sets in nearly immediately cause the bleeding will stop in within minutes. And then the inflammatory process comes in which sets in motion the clean-up and repair crew and then you have the repair phase and then the remodeling phase. So these three steps are gonna happen and the only thing that really gets in your way, again assuming you have adequate hydration, nourishment and rest - so I'm assuming those three things are in place - the only thing that gets in the way is the congestion. So decongest the area. How do you do it? Activate the muscles in and around the damaged site and the congestion will evacuate by your lymphatics. That's it. It's that simple. And you say well, what? Okay. That's it. It's all you have to do. Decongest the area in and around the damaged site. Go back to the '50's or '60's, the '40's or '20's, 300 years ago. Everybody walks it off. This myth got started in the early '60's. By the late '70s, the myth was in place. Stay still, rest, put ice on it, don't let it move, compress it, stop from getting around! Come on, it's wrong. Stop it. It's the wrong answer. The right answer is what they did for all time and that was walk it off. I mean just imagine the group, the tribe, whatever the name in the beginning tell the people at that time. And they're walking across and dad was the leader of the tribe, he's trying to get the group to the next safe place for the night, okay? And they're trying to find some food along the way. And Billy stubs his toe. Do you think the whole tribe stopped while Billy whines for two hours? No! They said keep walking, it will go away! Walk it off! Now I know that's like by making it so simplistic but the fact is when I grew up in the '60s, every coach told us to walk it off. They said don't sit still, they'll tighten up. And anyone old enough to remember that knows that's what everybody told us and it always worked. And I never thought about why it worked. We just knew it worked. And for all history, until that small gap from '62 to '78 when the myth start to grab hold and the illusionary treatment option stepped in, which is the name of my book by the way it's called Ice: The Illusionary Treatment Option. It's because it's not a real option. It's wrong. Go back to what we always did; we walked it off. Move it. If you activate the muscles in and around the damaged site, the waste will evacuate, the nourishment will come it. So the repair and clean-up crew will come to the site and the waste will evacuate. The great creator built the body in such a spectacular way that the same stress that brings in the good takes out the bad. Isn't that wonderful? I mean just imagine what a great design. Clearly, you have to win one of those noble prizes if you figured that one out, wouldn't you? I mean you just have to get it.Jeremy Lesniak:Yeah.Gary Reinl:But why? Because if there were two different stresses, if one stress brought in the good and a different stress took out the bad, think how dysfunctional the process could become quickly. But in this case, it's designed where the same thing that brings the good stuff in simultaneously takes the bad stuff out. Well how does that work? Well, the good stuff comes in because of the stress so the muscles are calling for additional supplies to the area. So that stress brings the supplies in and then simultaneously, a different system, your lymphatic system, is taking the waste out. So the good stuff comes in, the bad stuff comes out, both relying on the exact same muscle activation so the same stress brings in the good and takes out the bad. And if anyone is out there and they're saying this sounds too simple, okay. It is too simple. If it were little complicated, again, you wouldn't still be here. It had to be simple. If it wasn't simple, we wouldn't have survived this as species. It had to be good stuff in, bad stuff out, same stress. That stress had to be muscle activation. And if you think about it, by the way, kind of an interesting way in my mind, just think about it, is what's the one thing that the great creator could have counted on. In other words, you got these people, you're going to put on earth, however we got here. Whatever. Believe whatever you want to believe. But here we are; we're here. Now there is no chance that the great creator can come down and manage every single person he's bumped into, right? That's impractical.Jeremy Lesniak:Right.Gary Reinl:I know, I know. There's some people saying yes, he could. Okay, whatever. But the reality is, it would be very difficult to manage every single bump and bruise that everybody got. Unless you pick the way to fix it that everyone had to do and that was activate their muscles. So we self-repair via muscle activation. So what could you count on people doing on earth? You could count on them walking, hunting and gathering, right? You can count on that. So taking things up - moving, walking around, going to the next place for shelter, doing things. You could count on people doing stuff. So when we were made, when we were invented, the mechanism that heal by itself was put in the body, in the muscle. When the muscle's activated, the muscle drives the healing process. And if you want to read that, by the way, if anybody says well I don't know about that. Well I do know, okay? So I do know and you could look up the word myokines and you read all about it and you'll see that in fact, the muscles drive the tissue regeneration-preservation process.Jeremy Lesniak:It's elegant. It's a really elegant solution in one that if we were to design on our own, I think we would be thrilled to get there but it probably requires some...Gary Reinl:I can't imagine that any other way, and I do imagine very often about how else could you have done this? I can't imagine any other way. So you can't say well here's a better way. No, there isn't a better way. Simply moving facilitate the process of preserving and regenerating the tissues. If you don't move, the tissue shrinks and rots. If you do move, and by the way, who hasn't heard use-it-or-lose-it?Jeremy Lesniak:Right.Gary Reinl:Do you think that was just like a passing comment? No, we know that if you sit still, if you don't do anything, the tissue will shrink or what's called atrophy. We also know that if you do things, it will hypertrophy or grow. So here we've got this process in place for the human body to self-repair not self-destruct. And for some unknown reason to most people, I've explained here the reason, the idea of sitting still with a bag of ice wrapped tightly around the damaged site, caught on. It's unexplainable. You couldn't make this up. Nobody would believe you if you said I have a great new way to manage damaged tissue. I want you to sit still, we're gonna make it really cold and wrap this bandage around it really tight. If I walked in and said that to you and you knew that was wrong, you'd look at me like that's the dumbest idea I ever heard. And in fact, I'm hoping that right now you have enough information that when I say that you you'll say well that's a dumb idea. That wouldn't work. I'm hopeful that everyone listening got it. That you don't facilitate the healing of damaged tissue or the preservation of tissue around the damaged tissue by sitting still, by making it cold, and putting a tight wrap around it. Remember, if you put a tight wrap around it, what did you do? You prevented the waste from evacuating the damaged site. Now yes, it's true. You prevented the repair and clean-up crew from getting to the site. Well, let's let that go and just remember that if you wrap it tight, you are trapping the ways in and around the damaged site. That's utterly foolish. No one would recommend that. And they could get cold, delay healing, increases swelling, causes additional damage, and shuts off the signals that alert your harmful movement and you need movement to solve the problem and you need those signals to alert you to harmful movement. So this is very simple. You know it's wrong but do it any other way than I just described. And now that you hear it, if someone were to say to you hey that's one nasty kick you got in your quad there. Now it's starting to swell up. It's turning black and blue. Or some guy's tore a hamstring doing something and the blood starting to show in the back of their leg. Would you today, knowing what you know right now, would you today walk off to them and say look, here's what you need to do. You're gonna stay still, put a bag of ice on it and wrap it real tight. Seriously, would you tell anyone to do that right now knowing what you now know? Okay, hopefully your audience knows that, too. And join the tens of thousands of people who are now aware and they are that many, by the way, over a million people have heard this message from me. So there are tens of thousands who are now following the simple basic reality information and we're shifting it. And what I say is join the 1:08:56Jeremy Lesniak:There really isn't anymore to say, is there? Mr. Reinl presented this information in a way that you can't argue. I'm sure there may be... well I guess I can't say I'm sure, I'm suspecting there are some of you out there who are having a hard time swallowing this. Well, head on over the show notes, we've got some links, there's other information. This guy's got a great book. You know, there's a lot of stuff that you can research and this is a perfect example of why we need to keep an open mind. Something that we all thought we knew actually proved to be completely false.You can find the show notes whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Our website, whistlekick.com. Find us on social media, @whistlekick and don't be afraid to email me, jeremy@whistlekick.com. That's all I've got for you today. We'll be back with another episode in just a few days. Until next time. Train hard, smile, and have a great day.