Episode 1027 - 2 Schools of Thought: Hardwood Floors vs Mats
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew tackle the next topic in their new series: 2 Schools of Thought. They take a topic and look at 2 different ways to do it, exploring pros and cons of both.
Hardwood Floors vs Mats 2 Schools of Thought - Episode 1027
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Jeremy and Andrew engage in a lively debate about the merits of hardwood floors versus matted floors in martial arts training. They share personal experiences, discuss the pros and cons of each surface, and explore how these choices impact safety, realism, and training effectiveness. The conversation delves into subjective preferences and the versatility of training spaces.
TAKEAWAYS
The discussion is not about which surface is better.
Hardwood floors are generally more stable and easier to clean.
Matted floors are considered safer for certain techniques.
Training on hardwood can feel more connected to the ground.
The energy of a training space can influence performance.
Training intensity should dictate the choice of surface.
Accessibility of training spaces is a key consideration.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to the Debate: Hardwood vs. Matted Floors
02:41 Personal Experiences with Training Surfaces
05:35 Pros and Cons of Hardwood Floors
08:37 Safety and Realism in Training Environments
11:32 Subjective Preferences: The Feel of Training
14:38 The Impact of Training Surface on Techniques
17:33 Training Intensity and Surface Considerations
20:36 Versatility and Accessibility of Training Spaces
23:48 Community Feedback and Conclusion
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Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak (00:24.227)
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome. It's another episode of Whistlekick martial arts radio. And on today's episode, Andrew and I are doing a two schools of thought hardwood floors versus matted floors in your training base. You know what? This could be the most controversial episode we've ever done. Of all the things we've done, this could be the one that gets people really bent out of shape. And I would find that so funny.
I'm actually, I know our audience pretty well and I've got a feeling that this is going to this, this way to stir the pot. But I look forward to that as always. You're welcome to send us feedback. Andrew at whistlekick.com. can also remember me, Jeremy at whistlekick.com. Other things that you should know whistlekick.com for all the things that we do to help you, the traditional martial artists of the world, everything from our school owners program, whistlekick Alliance, to our training programs, our apparel, all of the things.
available at whistlekick.com. This website, this show has its own website, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. What are you going to find over there? Every episode we've ever done, as well as transcripts, as well as, let's see what else is over there. Links, photos, videos, and in no small part to our partners, we have all those things.
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Andrew Adams (02:45.41)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (02:50.509)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (02:51.539)
I don't know of any schools that had matted floors when I was growing up. I don't think any of them did. Did you have? You knew schools that had mats back then? you did. OK. OK, interesting.
Andrew Adams (03:02.143)
yeah, yep. My school did. Yep, yep. Yep. When I first started training in high school, the school that I trained at had the really nice tatami mats. Like the two foot by four foot gray, like two and a half inch thick. Yeah. So we had, we have training mats.
Jeremy Lesniak (03:18.925)
Okay, cool.
Jeremy Lesniak (03:27.979)
Okay. Okay. We had. Max hanging on the walls. It would take down if we were doing roles or certain self defense work, but I grew up in a old high school gymnasium. It sounds funny to say I grew up, I grew up in martial arts, but it also where I grew up, but I grew up in an old high school gymnasium and most of the places that I trained for a long time were hardwood floors. And I remember the first time I trained on Matt's and it was so different.
Andrew Adams (03:46.477)
you
Andrew Adams (03:58.198)
Yeah, it definitely is different. you know, I want to backtrack really quickly. You mentioned this might be a really controversial episode. Keep in mind, if you're listening, we're not going to tell you which one's better. We're just going to talk about the pros and cons of both. Right. We're not saying one is better than the other. We're going to talk about we're going to talk about our experiences in both and some things to consider. And, you know, maybe you're listening to this because you're a school, you're
Jeremy Lesniak (04:03.426)
Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak (04:16.989)
school's a fuck.
Andrew Adams (04:26.045)
Soon to be school owner and you're trying to decide like there there are pros and cons to both But yeah, I have done the gymnasium thing as well But the very first school I trained at in high school. We had really nice tatami mats And I'm thinking the other school there was another really large martial arts school in town as well And when they first started they were not they did not have mats and you know what?
I think they still don't have mats. That school is still around. They're very large. The school is very large. And they still have a hardwood floor. So there you go.
Jeremy Lesniak (05:05.507)
You know, there are a few things we can say very definitively in terms of one versus the other. are expensive. They are more difficult to clean. They are safer.
Andrew Adams (05:16.907)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (05:23.619)
Hardwood floors, more stable, easier to clean. Assuming they already exist, they're less costly. I would assume that even starting from scratch, setting up a basic hardwood floor would be cheaper than setting up whatever your floor is plus putting the mats on top of it.
Andrew Adams (05:30.69)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (05:44.429)
hardwood floors, more traditional. Is there anything else really cut and dry that's basically objective that we can say about one versus the other?
Andrew Adams (05:53.3)
I mean, you mentioned the mats are safer. Obviously, the converse is that hardwood floors can be more dangerous.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:05.165)
Well, if mats are safer, hardwood floors are less safe. And it doesn't mean that everybody's dying because of a hardwood floor.
Andrew Adams (06:08.831)
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (06:13.801)
yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, of course.
Not having maths also is easier if you are using someone else's space. You know, if you're, if you are using, for example, if you're renting a room at the local church to teach your school out of, you're not going to, it's more accessible because you're not trying to find a location with maths already.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:38.357)
We can all but say with object as an objective statement, if you are, if you don't have a dedicated space, you're probably not going to have maths. You might have some maths, but you're probably not using an entirely matted floor unless you're using somebody else's martial arts school. Right. So, so I think we can say that there is some, it is easier to find a location without maths. could say that.
Andrew Adams (06:57.675)
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (07:08.363)
I think we, here's one that I'm kind of going back and forth on in my head, which is more versatile. You can put mats on a non-matted floor, on a hardwood floor. You're probably not putting hardwood on top of mats.
Andrew Adams (07:24.331)
Yeah, that's true.
Jeremy Lesniak (07:26.199)
Right? So I think, you if I'm thinking about all the things that we might do, it's probably easier to set up, say, for breaking on a hardwood floor versus mats. So I think, I think I would say a hardwood floor is, is more flexible as a training than mats.
Andrew Adams (07:37.698)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (07:48.822)
Yeah. And more, and I'm putting this in air quotes for those that are not watching, but we'd love for you to watch, go to YouTube to watch all of these and hit the like and subscribe. That's right. And you can hit the like and subscribe button that really helps us out. But it is more quote unquote realistic because if you, you know, get attacked out on the street, you are probably not going to get attacked on mats.
Jeremy Lesniak (07:58.084)
should always watch. You can see our shiny heads.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:16.291)
But I'm actually going to challenge that one a little bit. one of the things that I think we can say, hardwood floors are more stable.
Andrew Adams (08:24.077)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:25.943)
Because they don't move at all. They are hardwood floors. are assuming they're built well. They don't move when you step on them or jump on them or stomp on them. Mats do move a little bit. And if you are someone who wears shoes out in your day-to-day environment, training barefoot on hardwood floors is, and we've talked about this on the show, is a departure from your real world implementation of your martial arts training. If you're a standup striker.
Training on Max barefoot gets closer to what you would need of wearing shoes because there's some instability there. If you're a grappler, training on the hardwood floor is probably closer, though I don't know any grappling school to train exclusively on hardwood.
Andrew Adams (09:12.845)
Yeah, and the other quote, again, air quotes, realistic part is as a partner, as a person who's maybe getting thrown, you know, falling on and doing break falls on mats, obviously safer, but out in the real world, you're not going to have those mats. So training on the hardwood is a little more, again, air quotes, realistic. I actually trained in a school that
would occasionally go outside and work out on the pavement and do throws slowly and as safely as possible just to get used to doing, you know, our break falls first we would do it on the grass, you know, so it's still hard ground, very different from the mats. And then we would move on to the pavement just to, you know, I was going to say signify, but not signify, just to help simulate. That's what I was looking for. Simulate.
what you might encounter out in an altercation. So, you know, there's something to be considered there as well.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:14.581)
as I'm biting off the Growing up, because we had these two mats, know, was old high school gym, basketball hoops, and we had, there were these crash mats on the wall underneath. You've probably seen them. But they were set up in such a way we could take them off and we could use them as rolling mats. And you can imagine, you know, I think at the peak that school had 40, 50 people on the floor. was a big space. And two mats. And so what would tend to happen as people got better?
Andrew Adams (10:24.129)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:44.387)
is some of the higher ranks would do kind of what you're talking about going outside ground pavement. And they would work obviously in a very different way. Some of these roles and falls and things in a more realistic environment. And again, that brings us to the versatility of the hardwood floor because if someone's training on mats, you probably don't have a.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:10.115)
different softness levels of your mats, right? It's probably not, you know, that's the very squishy corner for the low ranks and that's the very firm corner for the high ranks. I mean, actually that'd be kind of neat, but I've never seen that before. So.
Andrew Adams (11:23.221)
Yeah. I mean, the only way you get that, and actually, I actually do know of a school that has that. Yeah. And you know, the school as well there, but the differences for this school is they purchased an entire building, which has four or five different training rooms. And I, I suspect it has to do with financial considerations. Not all of the rooms are matted the same way. And some, believe some just are carpet.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:29.292)
Really?
okay.
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (11:52.174)
on top of concrete. And so you've that this particular school has the ability to do that within their building. But, the schools I've been in, we had mats inside, and then we would have to go to another location. Now that other location was just outside the door. But we could then do things on grass and, you know, pavement. But in your school, yeah, it's very difficult to do.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:17.763)
So a lot of what we're talking about thus far has been very, if not objective, it's been close. We haven't really stirred the pot yet. Let's get a little more subjective, a bit more opinionated.
I don't like training on mats. I don't like it.
I don't feel I can connect to the ground. can't grip the mats the same way I can grip hardwood. I don't get the same response. You know, if energy comes from your relationship to the ground, I don't have as good of a relationship to the ground. My power is compromised. My speed is compromised. I feel like I'm, you were trained in water. I'm sure you've trained in water, trained in a lake or something.
Right. I feel like it reminds me of that. Not nearly as much, right? You know, training up to your neck and waters, slow motion. But when I'm training on mats, I kind of want to bounce, right? Like there's an instinct to, to compress and ride the re-expansion of the mat. And that's it. And there's a delay there. And obviously I can, I can train that out, but when I'm on hardwood, I feel, I feel solid.
Andrew Adams (13:28.589)
Mm hmm. So it's interesting. I, for the most part, agree with you, but I also want to say that I used to train in a school that was there's classes are held at the local Eagles club, the fraternal order. And we came in once a week and moved the tables and chairs and we had this room, but it was concrete with tile on top of concrete and
That's very different from hardwood floors. mean, we're saying hardwood floors. know, my vision, in my head when I mentioned this topic wasn't so much necessarily hardwood, but just hard floors. I do think, yeah, yeah. But I do think I enjoy training on hardwood because there is some give a little bit, you know, correct. And as opposed to tile on concrete.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:07.039)
added versus firm surface.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:18.401)
Compared to concrete, Yeah, for sure.
Andrew Adams (14:23.339)
That was not a great training surface because there was zero. Yeah, exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:24.899)
Yeah, there's no subfloor there. And I suspect that that's mostly what it is, that there's some manner of subfloor. might be, I'm not a flooring person, but there might be a little bit of a pad or something in between the concrete and the hardwood.
Andrew Adams (14:40.461)
So, so for, for me, like, I also think there's a huge difference in, and, and, and in matted floors from. If you're in a hardwood floor and someone lays down a mat, which can slide around, that's one thing. If you are in a dedicated space that is completely matted 24 hours a day, it's, they don't move. That's huge. That can make a huge difference.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:46.029)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:58.723)
Go.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:03.041)
It was done well. I've trained on some that were not dealt, not done well. There were gaps. Don't stand over on that edge. That's that you'll lose the toe there. yeah, no, you're, you're absolutely right. It also depends on what's under the mats. Is it, I've trained on mats that are on raw concrete. I've trained on mats that were on top of hardwood floors, you know, or, or something similar. Right. So, so again, there's a little, there there's more give.
Andrew Adams (15:22.125)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:32.354)
and
Yeah, yeah. Squish versus non-squish.
Andrew Adams (15:35.054)
And it also depends on the type of mat. Yeah, I mean, that's getting into the squish versus non-squish. The one-inch interlocking foam mats that are usually two feet by two feet. Often they come in red or blue, reversible, different colors on either side. That's one type of mat, which I've seen a lot. But then you've got the mats like you were talking about that are on the walls of gymnasiums that you can kind of tear down, like that type, two and a half inches or so.
but fairly squishy. But then if you look at actual tatami mats, the two foot by four foot, usually gray, you find them in a lot of Aikido schools. They're also two and a half inches, but the squish level is very different from the crash mats in a gymnasium. And all of those things make a difference for sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:22.435)
You know, what I'm realizing is, mean, you know, me, most of the audience knows me to be quite the nerd. And so I tend to think of things in a lot of very left brain nerdy ways. And what I, what was coming to mind was a graph of how much I want to train on mats versus the intensity of the training, but more so the risk that comes from the intensity of the training. The more risky it is.
Andrew Adams (16:49.197)
Mmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:52.171)
the more I want mats, right? If you and I are sparring, you, cause you and I have worked together plenty, if you and I are sparring and we're working some stuff out, assuming your foot was back to a hundred percent, I don't think either of us would have any problem doing basic level self-defense, not so much throws, but sweeps on hardwood, on some kind of hard surface, because we could do it slowly and gently and mitigate the risk.
Andrew Adams (16:53.69)
Sure
Jeremy Lesniak (17:21.475)
And, you know, we both spent, you know, we both know how to break fall basically enough that it well enough that it's not going to be super risky. But the moment we push that up where the speeds pushed up, or maybe it's a little more freeform, then I'm going, Hmm. Could I at least have a map for where my hands slapping out? We keep going a little bit further. I still trust you. I'm still feeling safe in, in what you're doing, but I'm not safe.
in the physics of what we're doing.
Andrew Adams (17:53.996)
Yep. Yep. And I think it, it correlates to, like you said, what we're doing. If you and I are just standing up doing kickboxing sparring, right? Where we're not going to be doing grabs and takedowns. Like we would have no problem being on hardwood floors, but if we are decided, you know what, let's switch into and do a judo class. Now.
I suspect that if you're a, you know, multi-level black belt in judo, you probably have no problem doing those types of falls and things on much harder surfaces. But as a beginner, I'm not a judoka. I don't train judo on a regular basis. I'm not going to feel comfortable doing those types. And you, it's the same way. We are not going to feel comfortable working with each other, doing judo out on the street.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:42.721)
We've talked about this before, and again, this is my nerdy and I'm pretty sure we've talked a bit about this on the show, what I have termed my universal progress equation, right? It's safety plus discomfort over duration and frequency. And so that's what we're bringing in here. It's the safety and the discomfort. If I am...
Uncomfortable and unsafe. cannot make progress. That's testing, right? Testing is valuable and maybe it's a black belt test. Maybe it's a competition testing is outside the equation, but for training purposes, yeah, I'm going to need some manner of environment that keeps me safe, whether that's the. The max or the reduced intensity or, you know, I've, I've worked with some people who are amazing.
Rapplers, wonderful judoka. And they just kind of balanced me on their hip. And then they set me down. And I'm like, that's kind of fun. It's like, I don't know, like being a little kid again.
Andrew Adams (19:38.061)
Sure.
Andrew Adams (19:44.843)
Yep. So, I mean, I think all of those things are things to consider. You know, it has to do with what we're doing.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:55.459)
And I think, you know, most schools.
If you have a hardwood floor, you have the option of having a few mats. You don't need, you don't need a matted space 100 % of the time for anything. If you, if you have, I would, I would venture that unless you have some ridiculously densely packed space, you have enough room to appropriately store a few folding mats.
Andrew Adams (20:15.181)
Absolutely
Andrew Adams (20:29.921)
with the exception of if you don't own that space, if you come in, again, church, I'm thinking if you're working at a church or someplace, you may not have the ability to store it there.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:30.007)
You know, they can, I've.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:41.665)
No, no, but in assuming you do not have a very small car, you can probably bring them in, right? Because if you have 200 students, you can probably afford a large enough vehicle to put four or five mats in. If you have students, you have a bicycle, you can put straps on it and wear it on your back. Right? Like, like it should, it should more or less scale.
Andrew Adams (20:46.189)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (20:56.845)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (21:06.85)
You
Jeremy Lesniak (21:10.551)
that as you have more students and need more maths, there is more money to buy maths. And if there isn't, you should talk to me because I will help you. That's not the intent of this conversation. I just, like the versatility. I like the old school feel. And I, and, and I got to kind of think of how to say this. Okay. Here's how I'm going to say it.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:37.123)
If the default is hard, is a hard floor, not necessarily hard wood, but a hard floor, versus the default is mats. There is an unconscious tone to the space.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:54.966)
And for some people, that the tone of that matted space, and you know what I mean, Andrew, and I don't know that everybody out there is going to know what I mean, but there's a.
Every training environment has energy. If you've trained at three or four different environments, you know that they're all a little different. And even if you can't put your finger on it, there are aspects to training in some spaces that you like more than others. Like, I don't know if you can tell right now, I'm in this, I'm dog sitting, I'm out in the sun room. It's a beautiful view. Hardwood floors. This would be a great training environment.
I could take the same room, but it's somewhere else without all the windows, without the view of the water and the mountains would not be as nice of a training environment. The floor is the same, but there's something about the environment, the energy. I don't know that we need to belabor what that is, but the energy that I feel when I'm in a matted space versus the energy I feel in a hardwood space, I think there's something to it.
Andrew Adams (22:48.78)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (23:08.255)
Yeah, I see that. totally see that. you know, I, again, like we said at the beginning, there's no right or wrong answer, whether your school has mats or not. I think, you know, if it, if it's not a dedicated matted space, I think you can be smart about the types of math that you, maths you get. The school I mentioned that was at the Eagles club, you know, totally concrete floor with just linoleum tiles down, the
sent the instructor for the school had four mats. That's it. Just four. He had a pickup truck. So he just threw them in the back of his truck and they were the, they were the type of foam that you would get in your gymnasium wall, but they had Velcro on two sides. So he could either line all four of them up in one really long line. If we were going to be doing roles, we could, you know, all single file and do a couple of roles all the way down, or he could set it up in a really big square.
if we were doing partner work and whatnot. So I mean, you can be smart about how you use the mats. But again, they were mats on a hardwood floor, so they would move around occasionally. So that's something to keep in mind.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:23.331)
True, it's Here's the last, and I wasn't intending to save this for the end, but maybe this is my wild card. If you wanna do realistic training wearing street clothes, I don't know, anybody that's letting me wear my street shoes on mats.
Andrew Adams (24:42.485)
Hmm. Yeah, that's a good point.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:45.333)
I can always, you know, if there's a little bit of dirt on my shoes, yeah, I can sweep that up on the nice floor, on the hard floor.
but some rugged boots on those mats aren't gonna fare well under that.
Andrew Adams (25:00.491)
Yeah, absolutely. So there's a lot to consider when you're looking at both hardwood and or hard surfaced training facility or mats.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:11.971)
So here's who I want to hear from. want to hear from a few different kinds of people. I want to hear from schools that started with one and changed to the other, especially if you changed back. I definitely want to hear from those folks. I want to hear from people who've trained in different environments. You know, I go over here and it's hardwood. I do roughly the same thing over here and it's math. I move over here and it's, know, pile or astroturf or something else that,
Andrew Adams (25:40.525)
you
Jeremy Lesniak (25:41.924)
pretty sturdy and different mats over here. What is that like to switch from one to the other in your training? And then also people who train, and this might be our BJJ contingent, people who train on different mats with different levels of squishiness and how that affects what you do. Because a lot of folks in the BJJ space, it's, I'm not saying that training is a game, but there is an inherent gamification, I think, that comes in.
to bear in a lot of BJJ schools and does it, well, mess with your game to go back and forth in different mats or maybe, you you competed and the mats were much squishier or much firmer than what you're used to and did that affect how you rolled? And so I'm curious to hear from, from anyone of course, but those groups of people specifically. Jeremy, was a quick thought.
Anything else we should add before we roll out?
Andrew Adams (26:37.877)
No, I think that's pretty good.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:41.155)
Okay, well, I appreciate all of you out there spending some time with us today. can email Andrew, andrewatwhistlekick.com. Make sure you have subscribed everywhere you can do so for this show, Spotify, YouTube, and any podcast player of your choice are the prime ones. And we haven't asked for it in a while, but please leave us reviews. It does help us surprisingly enough. We've been killed it on Apple podcasts, but we've had a couple.
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Andrew Adams (28:48.855)
There you go.
Andrew Adams (28:56.749)
So the only thing that I wanted to make sure to mention at the end here is that we have, we, Whistlekick, have over 1,000 episodes, right? 1,025 as of this recording.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:59.618)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:03.733)
yeah.
we do.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:10.307)
Is that what this one is? Is 10.25? Oh, that's good.
Andrew Adams (29:12.333)
I think this will be 27, I think. But we have to, in order to put this show out, it costs money. It does. That's the sad reality. It costs us money to make this show happen. And for as little as $5 a month. That's it. Five a month, which is less than the cost of a beer at this point, or a coffee at Starbucks.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:16.823)
Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:27.299)
That's cost money.
Andrew Adams (29:40.997)
You can help support the show. And I think it's really important that people understand that you get to be a part of it. You get stuff for that, right? You know, yes, you get the satisfaction of knowing you're helping the show happen, but you're going to get some behind the scenes stuff. You're going to get the, it's not just you're giving us money. Yes, you are giving us money, but you're helping the show happen and we're going to give you some stuff too. And so, I stole this from another podcast, but don't don't do it. Do do do it.
patreon.com forward slash whistle kick.
Jeremy Lesniak (30:11.451)
We have plenty of Yeah. And you and I have talked, we have some, some big plans for things that we're going to do, but we just, we need the scale first because the things that we're going to do are going to cost us some more money and we need to grow the Patreon so we can take a little bit of money out to do more things for the people in the Patreon.
Andrew Adams (30:30.187)
And you should support the things that you love. If you go to the movies, you spend money to go to the movies. are quote unquote wasting time, right? You're sitting there doing nothing, but you're getting something out of it. You go to a comedy show, you're going to spend money to do that. You get this show for free. You are spending time out of your day, enjoying something, help support that in a way that would really help us. That's all.
Jeremy Lesniak (30:55.757)
Well said. Thank you. And thank you to all of you. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.
Andrew Adams (31:02.317)
Train hard, smile, and have a great day.