Episode 1051 - Why Do We Do That?: Martial Arts Etiquette
In this episode, join Andrew and Victor Guarino as they discuss martial arts etiquette and the reason why they may have started.
Why Do We Do That?: Martial Arts Etiquette - Episode 1051
SUMMARY
In this episode, Andrew Adams and Victor Guarino delve into the nuances of martial arts etiquette, exploring its cultural significance and practical applications. They discuss various aspects of etiquette, including the importance of bowing, the practice of cleaning the dojo, and the expectations surrounding sparring and testing. The conversation highlights how these traditions foster respect, discipline, and a sense of community within martial arts training.
TAKEAWAYS
Etiquette in martial arts is rooted in cultural traditions.
Bowing serves as a sign of respect and acknowledgment.
Cleaning the dojo is a way to take ownership and reflect on training.
Sparring etiquette emphasizes safety and mutual respect among students.
Students should feel empowered to ask questions and seek knowledge.
Testing should be a personal decision based on readiness, not instructor pressure.
Cultural differences influence how etiquette is perceived and practiced.
Mindful cleaning can be a meditative practice for martial artists.
Communication and non-verbal cues are essential in a dojo setting.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
03:10 Cultural Significance of Etiquette
07:58 The Importance of Cleanliness in Martial Arts
12:29 Understanding Bowing and Respect
17:12 The Role of Cleaning in Martial Arts Schools
21:34 The Tradition of Mindful Cleaning
25:22 Sparring Etiquette and Hierarchy
31:04 Testing and Student-Teacher Dynamics
38:22 Trust and Communication in Martial Arts
42:02 Future Conversations on Martial Arts Etiquette
This episode is sponsored by Martialytics. Spend less time running your martial arts business and more time doing the martial arts parts of your business! Martialytics provides easy to use and versatile tools for well-established school as well as ones just starting out. If you sign up through us, they will DOUBLE your free trial to 60 days! Check out more at www.whistlekickmartialartsradio.com/partners
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section down below!
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Andrew Adams (01:11.576)
Hello, you're listening or watching to this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. And today I'm joined by frequent guest of the show, Victor. How are you today, Victor?
Victor Guarino (01:23.358)
I am doing well. How are you, Andrew?
Andrew Adams (01:26.254)
I am great. I'm excited to sit down and chat about some things to talk about etiquette, but we'll get there in just a second because people were probably wondering what is that? What? Why do we do that? What? I don't get it. We'll talk about it. Just a second. Hang on. I want to make sure that maybe you're a new listener. And if you are, I want to make sure that you go to whistlekick martial arts radio. If you want to find out more about the show, find out about all of the over 1000 episodes that we have available.
At that website, you will find transcripts. You'll find show notes. You'll find photos. You'll also find a button at the top that says subscribe. That'll bring you to our exclusive newsletter that you can subscribe to. Not only will you get a free book, but you also get notified of every episode as it comes out. So you don't miss any. just right in your email there waiting for you like a little wrapped present every episode. also there's a button there to find out about our sponsors.
So we would appreciate if you can go there and take a look at the sponsors that we have. One of the partners that we have, know Victor, you deal with quite a bit, which is Marshallitics. You want to talk about them really quick?
Victor Guarino (02:35.328)
Yeah, Martiallytics is a dojo, sorry, it's a gym management software, but specifically designed for martial arts schools. And I have worked in many different fitness centers using many different gym software management systems. And Martiallytics is the one that knows what I need before I know what I need. And it's very specific to running a martial arts studio.
It streamlines my billing, it streamlines my communication, it streamlines almost everything clerically that I need to do. And I think the best part is that they're constantly innovating. There have been multiple times where I've logged in at the start of class and noticed a new feature that wasn't there the previous day that I logged in there. I honestly, I can't imagine running our school without it.
because I've become so reliant on how it makes my life easier so I can just focus on my students and teaching.
Andrew Adams (03:41.888)
Excellent. And for anyone listening that's interested, please go to whistlekickmarshallarchradio.com. And at the top, there's a button that says partners. So we appreciate you. You can take a look there. And I know that they're giving an extra, I think, is it two months subscription? Yeah. So there you go. it. Try it for free. Now, this podcast is one small thing that we do. also do lots. I say small thing. This is a pretty big podcast, but it's one small part of what whistlekick does.
Victor Guarino (03:57.1)
Yeah, 60 days.
Andrew Adams (04:11.756)
You can go to whistlekick.com to find out information on everything else that we do, whether it's training programs or maybe you want to purchase a book or apparel or attend any of the events that we host throughout the country. All of that stuff can be found at whistlekick.com. Okay. So Victor, we are going to do an episode on etiquette. I got this idea from, actually, Jeremy had done an episode called martial arts etiquette back in 2016.
like nine years ago. And my thought was, you know, Jeremy is Jeremy. Victor, are you Jeremy?
Victor Guarino (04:50.645)
I am not.
Andrew Adams (04:51.818)
And guess what? I'm not Jeremy either. So I suspect we're going to have a slightly different thought, slightly different thoughts on etiquette within the martial arts. And then you had this idea of, you know what, why do we do that? Like, let's look at some of these, these etiquette things that we do in martial arts. Now, not all schools are going to do all of these things. And some of the etiquette we talk about might not relate to your school if you're listening. but
You and I, Victor, have certainly different training backgrounds. Mine is mostly all Japanese or Okinawan karate. And I know that you have a different skill set, not skill set, wrong word. You come at this from a different angle, having done different styles. So I think that this, I thought that this would be a fun episode to kind of talk about some of the etiquette things that we see often in martial arts schools.
Victor Guarino (05:42.88)
Yeah, no, for sure. And right before we got on and started recording, I was even alluding to this in the sense that I come, you know, because of my upbringing, not so much in the martial arts community, but, know, just generically coming from a very conservative religious background. My life was filled with so many things that this is just the way that you do them. But then when you go and talk to other people who aren't from that same background,
They do things a little differently. And it just made me realize, and I think this really will resonate true with American martial arts studios, is the whole fact that most of the things that we're doing come from cultures that the people who are perpetrating them have never actually experienced firsthand on their own.
Be it because those cultural norms no longer exist because they are history now, or because they were taught to, you know, how did martial arts come to America? Normally, the usual story is a soldier was stationed overseas and needed something to do, found a local gym, tried to overcome a language barrier, probably didn't really know the language as well as he should have, but made it work.
learned what he learned, came back to America and said, hey, this thing was fun, and then just started running classes the ways that they were run when he was overseas without fully understanding the cultural significance of anything. But it's just, that's the quote unquote way it's supposed to be. And I have always found that fascinating even in the beginning of this. Like I gave a little salute. Like I one day.
I've always, that's just military in my family. That's just always how we've, I've said hello, but like I once asked myself, why, why, why do we, why do we salute? why, why is that? Well, when Knights in Europe were passing each other, wearing full armor, they would lift their visor to show their eyes, to show that they were calm. But how many people who salute know that this is
Andrew Adams (07:48.651)
Lift their yeah, lift their Pfizer.
Andrew Adams (07:56.43)
you
Victor Guarino (07:57.372)
a lifting of the visor so that you would show intention. It's fascinating to me just to think about things like this.
Andrew Adams (07:59.682)
Exactly.
Andrew Adams (08:05.622)
Yeah. So, so that's what, know, people listening, watching, that's what we're gonna, we're kind of going to discuss some of these things. And some of it, may not get into the why, because honestly, Victor and I might not know why, but we're definitely going to talk about some, some etiquette things. the first one that comes to mind for me in most, though not all schools is taking your shoes off when you arrive at those schools, right? You're going to step on the training floor, your shoes come off.
Victor Guarino (08:33.76)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (08:35.854)
I think that one is fairly easy to understand. Why do we do that? Most of the time it's I mean, yes, culturally it comes from Japan and Okinawa and China where they often take their shoes off when they're indoors. But also we don't want dog poop on the floor. Right. I'm walking around outside of my shoes.
Victor Guarino (08:57.77)
Yeah.
Victor Guarino (09:01.301)
For sure, and this one actually makes the most universal cultural sense, I think, because especially when you're from societies where, you know, especially in lower income households or simpler lifestyles, where you walk on into someone's room is also where they sit on the floor to eat their food, which is also where they lay on the floor to sleep, right? And so now you've got
stinky dirt, all of the muck from travel on your shoes, traipsing across where you're about to lay your head. And conversely, mean, don't differ from style to style, but our style, even in the karate part of things, Jiu Jitsu aside, we spend a lot of time with our face on the floor. Our karate has a lot of throws. We take a lot of people down. I've been in this situation.
Andrew Adams (09:41.432)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (10:00.114)
not in any of the schools that I have trained in consistently, and certainly not in our schools, but I have been in a situation where I have been thrown and had my face pinned to the ground while working technique, and I've opened my eyes to see some sort of stained liquid on the ground that should not be near me, nor would I want it near anyone else's face. So it is a matter of cleanliness.
that I think is culturally universal. I mean, we're about to do roles. We're about to sit on this floor. We spend a lot of time exposed to the mat. And even though you clean it regularly, I don't want my students walking across a parking lot with God knows what in it, motor oils and all that, and then taking those shoes immediately onto my mats. It also breaks the floor down more, right?
Andrew Adams (10:53.815)
Yep, exactly.
Victor Guarino (10:57.883)
Asphalt is different than a floor, even a wooden floor, right? There's a reason why parking lots aren't made of wood. They're made of asphalt because they're designed to hold up more. And so for the longevity, for the cleanliness of things, that's an easy why that I think is universal throughout the arts, except in a lot of the Kung Fu that I've done where we are training outside. So we don't go barefoot. my Sifu. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (11:05.248)
You
Andrew Adams (11:22.72)
Exactly, exactly. I mean, and like I said, there's always exceptions, you know.
Victor Guarino (11:27.689)
Right. Right. But it's funny when he's indoors, my Sifu, I was just going to say he's barefoot. When I go to his house and we work out the few times that I've been there, we'll go outside because there's not enough room in his training space for more than one person to work out. We have shoes on, right? It's not like it's, it's, it's, it's you change what the, I guess the etiquette is in accordance to where you geographically are.
Andrew Adams (11:56.59)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. So the next one, think that most, but again, not all schools do is bowing.
Victor Guarino (12:06.571)
And that bowing can take many different shapes.
Andrew Adams (12:07.64)
Right.
Andrew Adams (12:11.154)
Absolutely, absolutely. in my history of schools and bowing is we would enter the school, I'd open the door, I'd walk in, I'd take my shoes off, whatever. And we would bow when we stepped onto the floor, like before stepping on the floor and then we would bow. And then before and after class, we would bow to a central location in the school with some photos and
In Japanese Okinawan schools, would be called a shomen, just kind of where the central location is. And during class, you would bow if you saw the sensei, whatever, things like that. But there are other schools that do it differently. But I think most, again, not all, have some sort of courtesy bow at some point. What's your experience with that in your schools?
Victor Guarino (13:04.875)
Oh, so, so, so much. mean, I can't, I, when I first started training with my instructor, we, we, we bowed at all of those regular places, you know, like bow when you come onto the mat, you bow at the beginning and end of class, you know, um, to, to the instructor or the head instructors, however. And then of course, you know, you bow to each other, um, you know, before you start working with your partner.
It's just as a sign of respect and whatnot. The funny story about that, because I'd been with my first instructor for such a long time that there was a generation of students before me and now there's a generation of students after me. And we went to a conference once where there was a school that did not do a lot of bowing to the point where like it jokingly annoyed the instructor to have to bow to people.
And that instructor was good friends with my teacher. And he told all of us, Hey, I want you to make sure that every time you see him, you go up and you wait for him to bow to you individually because he was teasing him. He was joking and like purposefully annoying his friend. But I've seen now to the point where that joke has gotten lost in translation from my generation to the next.
Andrew Adams (14:01.485)
Hmm.
Andrew Adams (14:14.573)
Yeah.
Victor Guarino (14:26.315)
And when my wife, Karen came to visit, she's a black belt from another school. All of the students like came up to her when her and I were having a conversation and they stood there waiting for her to acknowledge them to bow to them individually. And it freaked her out. And she was like, this was just way too much bowing. And I had to explain to her, I was like, they don't know that it was a joke from
Andrew Adams (14:26.424)
Hmm
Andrew Adams (14:43.128)
Hmm.
Andrew Adams (14:51.074)
Gotcha.
Victor Guarino (14:51.259)
years before they even did and now it has turned into the usual etiquette of what happens now in my instructor school. And so when we did ours, our school, she's like, I just want to go back to this. And that's the way that we do it. And the way that we explain, I'm actually, before I do that, I'm curious, because I know that you've done some instructing and things like that. When you're explaining to a new student,
bow to your partner. Do you explain anything or do you just make them bow because that's what we did?
Andrew Adams (15:23.234)
Hmm. Good. That's a good. Yeah, that's a good question. So, before I will answer your question, but I want to go back a little bit with the, the, because this is how I explained bowing when I'm teaching and I have a new student. They bow when they step on the floor. First off, I explained to everybody that the bow is just a sign of respect. That's, that's all it is. It's not putting anybody on a pedestal. It's not,
Victor Guarino (15:33.247)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (15:47.317)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (15:51.95)
You know, in some cultures, their religion has them bow and it has religious significance. I will often let the student know that in some religious areas, bowing has that aspect. That is not what it means here. For us, it is only a show of respect. So at the beginning of class, we all turn and we face the showman or the central place in the school with some photos of old, let's face it, mostly old dead people.
We are showing them respect. are bowing. And this is how I explain to students that we are bowing to them to basically thank them for what they've given to us. Right. And then I or whoever is teaching would turn around and then we do a bow to the instructor and we are thanking the instructor for what he's about to do. And we're, you know, we're showing respect to him that we appreciate that you are giving your time to us, the students. And so that's why, what I explained to the new students coming in.
Victor Guarino (16:22.538)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (16:51.372)
And then when we bow to each other, whether I'm like, perhaps I'm just a student in the class and I'm going to work with someone and we bow again. This is how I explain to students. It is a show of respect. am thanking you and respecting you and thanking you for taking the time to help me train and vice versa. I am here to help you train and get better. And so that's how I explain it to students that it is, you know, it's not a relit. has no relations.
religious significance. It's all about just respect.
Victor Guarino (17:26.217)
Yeah. Yeah, I'd say that we hit a lot of those same, same parts, as well. it's funny because like I, we talk about bowing onto the floor and off of the floor.
I don't really bow onto our floor because I was always taught that it is that side of respect to another person's house as you're entering another man's home or another woman's home. But our dojo is my home, so I don't need to bow into my own home. I've noticed that some of our students, some of our students do bow in onto the floor and then some of the newer ones don't.
Andrew Adams (17:59.832)
Well, interesting, sure.
Victor Guarino (18:10.355)
because we just normally say, yeah, know, like they see us come in and then they'll get confused because Karen and I won't bow onto the floor. But then some of the other students do bow onto the floor. So we kind of have to walk them through that. So I know my communication in that area probably needs to be a little better. I like what you said about the respect and the acknowledgment. Again, these are things that come from not.
English speaking cultures. So I know that like, yes, there is, I like how in Chinese Kung Fu schools that I've been to, what they do is not translated as bow, it's translated as salute, which is again, like I said on the top of this, just a greeting. And I was like, okay, cause that's how we use bowing. When I, when I tell them that students are, you know, you're going to bow to your partner.
Andrew Adams (18:51.927)
Hmm.
Victor Guarino (19:02.791)
I generally explain it very simply and say, listen, you're about to throw punches and kicks at this person's head. You're going to simulate a fight. How many people who are aggressive towards you have ever started by bowing to you to mean you heart? was like, the bow is a symbol to say, hey, this is all in good fun. I really don't mean you any harm.
Andrew Adams (19:25.986)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (19:27.699)
And then we bow again to close that exchange so that you, because I have some kids and some adults who get very distracted. And you know, there's a lot of groups in our room working on different things all at the same time. And sometimes one of them will take their eyes off of who they're working with and look over here and get hit. And so I tell them like, if you are done,
Andrew Adams (19:51.565)
Yep. Yep.
Victor Guarino (19:57.802)
with working with your partner, that bow is a communication, non-verbal communication. Be like, okay, we're done working together, please don't throw any more punches at me, because I'm about to break contact with this and start paying attention over here. And it's just a good shorthand, I guess is the best way to put it, of helping students be safe with one another. There's a lot of gyms out there.
Andrew Adams (20:03.214)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (20:08.12)
Yep, yep, yep.
Andrew Adams (20:13.038)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (20:26.219)
that are just about, well, you have to go hard all of the time. Well, yes, but then you have no students. You want your students to be safe so that everyone speaks the same language, even if that language isn't verbal. I I've had students in my old instructors who, there was one 14-year-old daughter, and then the rest of the kids were in there, were young.
Andrew Adams (20:32.854)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Victor Guarino (20:51.689)
not a lot of good English right there. The 14-year-old was the translator for the family. But all of these non-verbal motions of bowing, starting working together, not working together, actually helped these kids who couldn't speak English follow class and understand what was going along. So the etiquette created a universal body language that they were able to follow if they didn't quite understand the linguistic aspects of what were being explained.
Andrew Adams (21:01.144)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (21:14.723)
Hmm.
Andrew Adams (21:21.484)
Yeah, I like that explanation. It's not one I had thought of, although it absolutely, I can see it and it makes sense. know, and we use, we would often bow when we're done. When if I'm working with someone, we would also often bow when we're done. And again, we, we describe that to students as, know, basically a thank you for, you know, letting, letting me train with you. And we see that carry over.
in a different way into other things. Think of many sparring matches or UFC fights, MMA fights. They don't, they may not necessarily bow at the beginning, but they often will touch gloves. And it's the same thing. It's like, okay, we are now going to get into it, right? We're, we're gonna, we're gonna throw hands and are you ready? Yet we're ready. Okay, good. And then we go. and then there are certainly some, fighters who after the match is over, they will bow to their, opponent.
Victor Guarino (21:57.279)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (22:18.702)
And it's the same sort of thing showing of respect. So I think that's good.
Victor Guarino (22:22.897)
Or even, you you see a lot of like touching gloves or the hug at the end, right? It's the simple, hey, the violence is over. I've had a couple different instructors of mine tell me this and been like, you know, when you fight for sport is different than fighting for your life. When you fight for sport, it's just business.
Andrew Adams (22:29.506)
Yep. Exactly.
Andrew Adams (22:33.624)
Thank you.
Andrew Adams (22:54.338)
Yeah, no hard feelings.
Andrew Adams (23:01.517)
Yeah. Yep.
Andrew Adams (23:09.516)
Yep. Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. And, and, you know, no hard feelings type of thing. So I dig it. All right. Here's another etiquette one that again, I can't stress this enough listeners or watchers. If you're watching on YouTube, hit those buttons, like, and subscribe. It really helps out do it. many schools will have after classes over the students are asked or expected to clean the school.
Victor Guarino (23:15.241)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (23:36.458)
In Japanese cultures or Okinawa cultures, it's often called soji-do, which translates into roughly mindful cleaning. I've I've gone first on these other ones. You go first on this one. I suspect you have some thoughts on it.
Victor Guarino (23:36.565)
Hmm
Victor Guarino (23:45.12)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (23:53.236)
Yeah, that's actually really interesting. We did not have that happen. with like, like in, so much of a formal way when we, in my original school, that was the role of first degree black belts because
Andrew Adams (24:09.388)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (24:10.249)
You didn't have the full grasp of our system until you were a third. So you weren't really expected to take on any teaching roles. But first and second degree black belts, your stewardship of the school was to help with the things. like I would basically put the mats away, wipe them down so that our instructor could go talk to parents and wouldn't have to.
do that and it was less of something that was expected of me as a student and more of a way to practice servant leadership. We don't do that in our school because I have a student who comes in and helps me clean once a week and this.
This is only because we're smaller. I'm sure when we get bigger, I will need more help. Cleaning is my mindful practice. Cleaning is the thing that I love. I love to get alone in the school, vacuuming, put on some music, put on a book on tape, and just kind of lose myself in the mopping back and forth. And I don't think I'm ready to give that to someone else because I've got very few.
Andrew Adams (25:07.224)
Sure.
Victor Guarino (25:27.603)
places in my life where I get to just shut my brain off and just be present. But so tell me about like have you had like your experience with that?
Andrew Adams (25:31.202)
Sure, Yeah.
Andrew Adams (25:39.95)
Yeah. So, uh, first off, we'll talk about a little bit of the why, uh, and, you know, I'm not an expert on this. You're not an expert on any of these things. We're just giving conjecture, but I'm, I feel confident in saying that this tradition came about when instructors didn't really teach for money. Money, the barter system is what was used for everything. And, uh, you know, often.
classes would take place in the instructors home or on their property. so, hey, thank you so much for teaching me today. Here's a chicken. Here's so much for teaching me. Here's some eggs. Thank you so much for teaching me. Let me clean the floors for you. I think that's why we do it. At least that's where it came from, why we do what we do. Now, doing it
I think has a couple of reasons. One, it can often be a way for a student to help the school out who can't pay tuition. In a couple of the schools I've trained at, that's what it was. We, not every student would do cleaning after class because it was handled by one or two people because they got a discount on tuition to help out with that. And it helped the instructor because he didn't have to pay someone to do cleaning.
Victor Guarino (26:47.967)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (26:55.434)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (27:07.79)
In another school, everybody took part in cleaning. After class was over, every single person had to do something. Now, granted, we were a small school, so we only had, at the most, we maybe would have five or six people. So it was easy to go, you these three people, you're on cleaning the floors by hand with a rag on the ground. There was no mop involved. And then, you know, these two people, you go dust this area, you
Go to us there. You know, if we had 35 people in class, that it would be a much harder for everyone to have to do cleaning. But as it was described to us in that school, was about. at the literal translation of Sojiro, as I understand it, is mindful cleaning. So you were expected to clean, which is your way of helping to give back to the school, taking ownership of the school. The school is partly yours.
Yes, you don't really own a stake in it, like, this is take some pride in your school. You don't want a dirty school. You don't want other parents to come in and see that you have a dirty school. So it's your way of taking ownership of the school, but also it gave you an opportunity to reflect on what you learned that day. What lessons did you go through? it wasn't a time to like hang out and chat with your buddy next to you as you're mopping the floor. He was supposed to be quiet so that you could be.
Victor Guarino (28:07.904)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (28:37.006)
Mindfully thinking about what you did. So that's that's the experience that I have with it
Victor Guarino (28:42.059)
That's interesting and I can see it. definitely do understand the bartering system thing and helping students to offset tuition. When I couldn't pay for dues, I showed up and helped teach all of the beginner classes with my instructor, the student who comes and cleans for us. He has a discount.
on one of the classes, some of the classes that he takes, because he's not old enough to work yet. And I was like, okay, so you're not old enough to work for money, come work here. And so we do stuff like that. I have an etiquette one for you that I'm curious about that my wife and I talk about all the time. Never ask a higher rank to spar with you. What are your thoughts?
Andrew Adams (29:26.104)
Great. All right, let me hear it.
Andrew Adams (29:34.155)
interesting.
So when you started to ask the question, it didn't go where I thought it was going to go. that is not anything that has ever come up in the schools I've trained in. There's never been a, don't ask an upper rank student or instructor to spar with you. in fact, in
Victor Guarino (29:44.395)
okay.
Victor Guarino (29:59.862)
What about the converse of that? If a higher ranking student asks you to spar, it's rude to say no. Because I've come across those going hand in hand with one another.
Andrew Adams (30:15.638)
Hmm. So it's, that has never come up in any of the schools I've trained in. I, the S so I was involved in one school that, that did sparring every single night. Like rarely, if there were, if, there were eight classes a month, maybe there was one class that you didn't spar. And so in that case, everybody's part with everybody, regardless of rank or scar, regardless of it could be your first class, you would be sparring.
and you know, it was expected of if you're not the first day student, the person you're sparring, the person that is sparring that first day student is going to go super easy and light, but everybody's part of everybody. So there wasn't an issue of, don't ask. It was just expected. Everybody is going to spar everybody. doesn't matter what rank you are. The one thing that I will say, and this is where you started where I thought you were going to go as I have been in a, in a school where.
If you were working with a student that was of a higher rank than you, even if that rank was one rank higher, you were never allowed to correct them on anything.
Victor Guarino (31:30.143)
Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think both of those things come, come from the same mindset.
Andrew Adams (31:35.168)
I think so too, which is why I thought that's where I thought you were going to go. That if I'm working with my instructor, if I'm working with my teacher and I know, I absolutely know that he made a mistake, whether it's he went from this move into this move in the form or he's doing basics and he, we had, he had them in a set order. They were supposed to be when you do, when you're doing your blocking sequence, you do this one, then this one, then this one. And if I know he skipped one.
Victor Guarino (31:37.887)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (31:49.131)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (32:04.746)
It is incredibly rude for me to say, sensei, hang on. You, you missed one. You're supposed to go there or, sensei, you, you, you skipped that move in that form. It's supposed to go to here. Remember that was a huge no-no. instead what is expected is you have to phrase it as a question. Like sensei, I noticed that you went into that move, but I'm, I'm not sure that I'm doing it right. Cause I'm used to doing it into this move.
and you did it in this move and I just want to make sure that I do it right. Well, I'm politely pointing out that he did it wrong.
Victor Guarino (32:44.233)
Yeah, and I think that has to do with the whole concept of losing face in public and being embarrassed. But I think it is, I know our culture doesn't really deal with, and when I say our culture, I mean American culture, Western culture, doesn't really deal with the losing face in the same sense that Eastern cultures do. But there is this idea of,
There's a way to correct someone. talk to my kids all the time about their tone and I was like, listen, I don't have a problem with what you asked. I have a problem with how you ask it. I'll give this example and my son doesn't listen to podcasts, so he'll be okay. If I give this as an example, we were driving home from the dojo one day and, my wife was trying to figure out what we wanted for dinner.
Andrew Adams (33:27.096)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (33:42.252)
because we just passed the McDonald's and know, and that smells coming in through the vents and it smells so good and he's like, I'll take some McDonald's, you know, and so was our daughter. And without saying, we have McDonald's at home, my wife pretty much said, we have McDonald's at home. And she was like, I can make you guys burgers and fries when we get home. And our son goes, I'll take nuggets.
And so I almost stopped the car in its place and I was like, okay. I was like, this is the second time in that day we had this conversation. I was like, it's totally fine, but your wife is not, I mean, my wife, your mother is not a server. You're not at a restaurant. You can't say, like if I say, do you want this? You can't say I'll take something completely different.
I was like, there's a way you can ask for that because it's disrespectful. again, we know his heart. He doesn't mean anything by it. And one of the things that I said to him and Jess to kind of lighten the mood and make sure that he knew that I wasn't mad at him, I was like, we know what you mean, but one day you might use that wrong tone.
with someone who doesn't know your heart, and then you're gonna have to use the karate that we have been teaching you. Because that person's gonna take great offense. And going back to the, it's disrespectful to ask a higher rank to work out with them. I came up in a school like that, but that was because my instructor took in like a lot of Ronin, a lot of wandering.
Andrew Adams (35:10.734)
You
Victor Guarino (35:30.537)
people and he had this was in like the early 90s like coming right off of the the 80s craze he had just started and founded his own system of karate and he had a lot of people and his instructor had even more teaching in New York City in the 70s right had a lot of people come and be like hey let's move around together
to him, the head of the school, the fifth degree at the time of the school who just got done teaching, hey, can we move around? You know, in that air of, these students, these students of yours aren't on my level, so let's see what you have. And so we never, we never, now that doesn't mean that during class, of course, you spar whoever's crossed from you. After class, I would have, sometimes, there was no one my rank.
Andrew Adams (36:11.362)
Yeah, yeah.
Victor Guarino (36:23.423)
There was only people above me. So when I had a higher ranking student come up to me and say, hey, you got some time, you want to move around? I always jumped at the opportunity. My father would always walk around the house yelling in jest as if to get a point across that it's about your heart.
What you do isn't quite as important as the intention behind it. So with our students, because I have some adult students who know that they are weak in sparring, but also don't really have classes because, especially this summer, our student body has been so spread out that I've had one or two students in class and I hesitate to let siblings
spar with one another for too long because it could go bad. So then the only other people to move around with before and after class are myself and my wife. But they have this idea, was like, I can't ask the teachers. And I'm like, hey, listen, I'm not the type of person who is gonna tell you not to ask me. I love moving around. That's how I learn.
Andrew Adams (37:14.904)
Sure, that's natural.
Andrew Adams (37:38.124)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Victor Guarino (37:40.17)
Like I learned, I learned by getting my head handed to me by people who were better fighters than I am. it's, I don't think that I'm a good fighter. I have had people tell me apparently I'm better than I think I am, but that's because I've spent most of my, most of my martial career fighting people who are better than me. I'll give an example. the first ever time I did push hands was with Aaron Hoops.
Andrew Adams (37:44.334)
Yep. Yep.
Andrew Adams (38:08.182)
Mm-hmm.
Victor Guarino (38:08.223)
How do you think that went for me? I got thrown around like a rag doll, right? And I loved every minute of it. Why? Because I learned so quickly all of the things that I thought I was doing correctly and how they were incorrect. And that's just the way that I learned. I kind of need to have things beat into me a little bit. But if that same student comes up and was like,
Andrew Adams (38:19.918)
Yeah.
Victor Guarino (38:31.963)
I pushed you around in this drill that we were doing. I think I could take you in a real fight. They're going to get a different Victor. It's just, it's about like, that's one of those etiquette things that I think you got to understand where it came from. That whole people walking into other people's dojos to challenge their master, right? We're not there anymore. If someone does do that with me, I'll probably just say, no, thank you.
Andrew Adams (38:40.078)
Yeah, sure, sure,
Andrew Adams (38:52.407)
Yep. Yep.
Yeah, yeah,
Andrew Adams (39:00.888)
Mm, yeah.
Victor Guarino (39:00.947)
and not even fight them remotely. But if it's one of my students, yeah, I'll move around with you. I'm not gonna move around with you like a fifth degree black belt. I'm gonna move around with you so you learn and I learn.
Andrew Adams (39:13.964)
Yeah. Okay. So here's one. I'm a student of yours and I come up to you. Hey, Sensei, Sensei Garino, can I test next week when the test happens?
Victor Guarino (39:17.719)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (39:27.482)
So there's an etiquette thing that in some schools you do not ask to test.
Victor Guarino (39:27.499)
Okay.
Victor Guarino (39:36.598)
So, so my, yeah, and I came from that too. So this is one of the things when my wife and I put together our school and our curriculum, we took this etiquette and we practically burned it to the ground. Our students know for a fact, and we say it from day one, I'll ask them, who decides when you're ready to test? It's not me. It's not.
Andrew Adams (39:50.242)
Mm, okay.
Victor Guarino (40:02.665)
It's not sensei, it's you. You decide when you're ready to test. Every test is broken down into three things, into three sections. There's four things, there's a fourth thing that you have to do and all those things are represented by Stripes. So if a student thinks that they know, you know, the information in the curriculum for Stripe number one, they come up to us.
Can I test for my stripe? Sure, we do it. Once the student has all four stripes, they are eligible to test and when we set a testing date, they just have to show up. I get that etiquette, I know where it comes from and I think again, it comes back from the heart of the matter is that it would be disrespectful to go up to
And I have some students who, who they're not meaning to be disrespectful, but they are definitely punching above their weight class when they haven't mastered some foundational techniques and are asking to do some greater things, which is where I think that that thought process comes from is I think I'm ready for the next level, not trusting me, but we've kind of gotten rid of that conversation by saying, okay, well, you only have one strike.
Andrew Adams (41:21.122)
Yep. Yep.
Victor Guarino (41:30.035)
You can't test next week when there's a test because you're not allowed to earn. You're not, they're not allowed to take those Stripe tests. can only test for one Stripe per class. And only if they really know something well, do I let them test for us for two Stripes, two consecutive days. And if say like it's a Cata, if we went over that Cata that day in class, they can't test for their Stripe.
Andrew Adams (41:32.014)
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (41:44.44)
Mm-mm.
Andrew Adams (41:51.437)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (41:58.454)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, this goes hand in hand with the, I should have brought it up at the same time is in, in the, in a school I was in that had this rule is that, you were not allowed to ask when you test, you also were not allowed to ask to learn anything new. Like you could not go to the instructor and say, Hey, you know what? I already know that I know these three forms and, I really like to learn this form. I don't know it yet.
Victor Guarino (41:58.698)
because I've already taught them that.
Andrew Adams (42:27.682)
Will you teach me that today? Cause I'm the only one in class. It's just me. Can we learn on that? You know, learn that thing today. And that was also very much frowned upon. very bad etiquette. I think, I think it comes from, a, a, a deep seated route of the instructor thinking that the student thinks they know more than they do.
Victor Guarino (42:36.917)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (42:55.79)
I think it, there's a little bit of that ego there too, where you know, the structure doesn't want you to like, I'm going to put myself, I'm the instructor. No, you're not allowed to ask for things because I know what you need. You don't know what you need. I know what you need. I think it stems from that. And you know, you don't get to ask when you test. will tell you when you're ready to test because I know when you're ready.
Victor Guarino (42:55.999)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (43:24.896)
I think that's where it stems from.
Victor Guarino (43:25.291)
Yeah, it's interesting. think it has, and a lot of things I think come, a lot of etiquette things come back to this. This thought of unwavering trust in your instructor. But again, when you have a, and I know in Okinawa it was like this, I know in China,
Andrew Adams (43:41.485)
Mmm.
Victor Guarino (43:54.056)
schools were like this. And then when they kind of transitioned over into, you know, mainland Japan, though that family feel of a dojang or a koon started to become more of a militarized structure where
you know, you signed up for this, therefore you must place your trust in your superior officer. And then again, when the Americans came and they took, they were military people anyway, so they even more militarized things like this. like I came, coming from working in a background in different like religious and parareligious organizations, I used to always say things like, hey, like we shouldn't be doing culty things. Like,
If what you're doing sounds like something a cult leader would do, maybe we want to find another way. Like, I think a lot of the times of the statement, faith like a child. Well, faith like a child implies that the child has trust in a parent and that trust has been built in a relationship.
that has always proven to be in the child's best interest. I cannot apply that same type of trust to someone who walked through my door last week. I haven't earned that yet. So I tell my students all, all the time, none of them have done it yet, but my mom, she trains with my original instructor in New Jersey, she has a notebook. She's the only one of my students because she also takes Tai Chi with me online once or twice a week.
Andrew Adams (45:20.854)
Yep. Sure.
Victor Guarino (45:40.788)
And I've encouraged her to do this, but she's the only one of my students who has a notebook that she carries with her. She brings it onto the floor with her and she'll ask my instructor sometimes, well, hold on. And she'll go pick up her notebook and she'll write stuff down, you know, and people see it and are probably like, well, you know, it's harder to, you know, remember many. No, it's because she's being a good student. There are things that I have students who are in their twenties and teens who ask me.
Andrew Adams (45:53.966)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (46:03.063)
Yeah, yeah,
Victor Guarino (46:08.287)
And I want them to ask me questions and I will give them an answer. But a lot of times, Andrew, and I've done this, especially with the Bogwash Kung Fu that I'm teaching. I've got one student who's taking kind of that focus in their training. They'll ask me a question. like, that's a really good question. I can give you an answer. You're not going to understand it because you lack the fundamental basics to understand my answer. So here's what I'm going to say. Take out your notebook, write that question down.
Andrew Adams (46:28.278)
Yep. Sure, sure.
Victor Guarino (46:38.195)
And in a couple months, we're gonna come back to it. So you can understand. And I think that there's a lot of people who are, and this is where, this is another etiquette thing that I know we could probably have a whole other podcast about. I know that there have been whole other episodes about cross-training. An instructor's unwillingness to let someone train under another person.
Andrew Adams (46:40.106)
Ask me again. Yep. I love it. Yep.
Victor Guarino (47:11.431)
I think that there is merit in that to a point, but I don't think, I think that nowadays a lot of that etiquette comes from fear of being questioned or fear of, what I have is given you so far isn't enough. There's value in multiple perspective.
Andrew Adams (47:24.728)
fear.
Andrew Adams (47:29.932)
Yeah. Yeah. So I think, I think we'll put a pin in that because I think we're going to have to come back and do a part two for sure.
Victor Guarino (47:35.103)
Yeah.
Yeah, for sure. I have so many thoughts on that. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (47:40.12)
So we'll save that. We'll save that for part two. if you're if you've made it all the way to this part, listening or watching, get in touch with us and let us know what etiquette things did we not cover? Tell us because we're going to do we're going to have to do another one. That's just the way it is. We're going to we're going to have to do a part two. So if you're on YouTube, comment, tell us what etiquette you have to do in your school. And maybe you'd like to know why.
Victor Guarino (47:55.659)
Because, yeah, we have to.
Andrew Adams (48:07.33)
We can't tell you definitively why, because we're not your instructors. mean, okay. First off, if we are your instructors and you're going on YouTube asking why you do something, just come and ask us personally. regardless, comment on YouTube. What should we cover in the next installment of this? Or you can send me an email at andrew at whistlekick.com and I will make sure goes on the list and we'll definitely discuss it. If you are anything new, Victor, before I finish out here.
Victor Guarino (48:19.531)
you
Victor Guarino (48:38.391)
if you're in the Kansas city Metro, area, can come and visit us. we'd love to have you, you know, do you think we, just held our second annual free training day Midwest, and that was great. Already have thoughts and plans for free training day, Midwest, episode three, as I call it in my head.
Andrew Adams (48:44.151)
Yeah, for sure.
Victor Guarino (49:00.939)
But yeah, I mean, other than that, I'm working on some things, some online programs that hopefully will be rolling out by the end of this calendar year. So I'll keep you informed as those things come to light.
Andrew Adams (49:01.763)
Ha ha!
Andrew Adams (49:13.282)
Awesome.
Andrew Adams (49:17.698)
That sounds great. again, whistlekickmarshallarcheradio.com for this episode. Transcript, show notes, all of our other episodes, subscribe to our newsletter, check out our partners, check out Marshalllytics and see the cool stuff that they're doing to help you manage and organize your school and students and whatnot. to whistlekick.com to find out everything else that we do.
Maybe you want to attend a martial art teacher training certification course. You can find that there. All of the stuff that we do, you'll find there. And if you use the code podcast one five, you'll save yourself 15 % on most everything. And the last thing is a plea to all of you listeners or viewers. If you want to help make this show happen, the best thing you can do is to share it with friends.
Tell people about the podcast. Say, Hey, here's a great episode that we just listened to on etiquette. Take a listen. I would love to hear your thoughts on it. So share this episode. costs nothing. But if you do have a couple extra bucks in your pocket, patreon.com forward slash whistle kick, help make this show happen. Help us connect, educate and entertain traditional martial artists of the world. It would really mean a lot to us. So until next time train hard.
Victor Guarino (50:38.773)
Smile.
Andrew Adams (50:40.161)
and have a great day.