Episode 1105 - An Open Discussion on Rank
In this episode, Andrew Adams is joined by fellow podcaster Greg Lynham from Conversations on Karate. Sit with them as they have an open and honest discussion about rank.
An Open Discussion on Rank - Episode 1105
SUMMARY
In this episode, Andrew Adams and Greg Lynham engage in a comprehensive discussion about the concept of rank in martial arts. They explore the nature of testing for rank, the implications of being awarded rank without testing, and the importance of physical ability and character in determining rank. The conversation also touches on the differences in rank across various martial arts schools and emphasizes the significance of individual progress over comparison with others. They explore various aspects of martial arts, focusing on the significance of junior black belts, the role of rank stripes, and the implications of fitness tests in black belt grading. They discuss the importance of adapting curricula for different age groups, the impact of disability on teaching, and the nuances of colored belts in martial arts. The dialogue emphasizes the need for understanding and respect within the martial arts community, as well as the importance of teaching methods that align with students' abilities and experiences.
TAKEAWAYS
The conversation centers around the concept of rank in martial arts.
Testing for rank varies significantly between different schools and styles.
Higher ranks often involve less physical testing and more focus on teaching and character.
Physical ability can impact a student's ability to test, but should not determine their rank.
Character and personal growth are crucial elements in martial arts training.
Rank should not be stripped away due to declining physical ability with age.
Martial arts should be inclusive and accessible to everyone, regardless of physical limitations.
Comparing ranks across different schools can be misleading due to varying criteria and curriculums.
Individual progress should be prioritized over competition with peers.
The journey in martial arts is as important as the rank achieved.
Junior black belts are not equivalent to adult black belts.
Separate curricula for kids and adults can be beneficial.
Awarding junior black belts can be appropriate after sufficient training.
Rank stripes can help indicate progression beyond black belt.
Fitness tests in black belt grading may not reflect martial arts skills.
Teaching ability can exist independently of physical fitness.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
01:10 The Nature of Testing for Rank
03:58 The Debate on Rank Promotions
06:57 Physical Ability and Rank
09:56 The Role of Character in Rank
12:55 Comparing Ranks Across Different Schools
15:54 The Importance of Individual Progress
18:59 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
23:36 The Impact of Disability in Martial Arts Teaching
24:02 Junior Black Belts: Perspectives and Practices
26:03 Curriculum Differences for Kids and Adults
28:41 The Role of Rank Stripes in Martial Arts
32:08 Understanding Colored Belts and Their Significance
36:27 The Debate on Fitness Tests in Black Belt Grading
45:10 Closing Thoughts and Future Discussions
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Andrew Adams (02:02.912)
Welcome you're listening or maybe if you're on YouTube you might be watching this episode of whistle kick martial arts radio today I'm joined by fellow podcaster and former guest of the show Friend all-around great guy Greg Lyon I'm Greg. How are you today?
Greg Lynham (02:19.164)
I'm good thank you, how are you?
Andrew Adams (02:20.846)
Oh, I'm doing fabulous. I'm excited to sit down and chat about rank and all the ins and outs and have a really open and frank discussion. But before we get there, just in case we have any brand new listeners, check out what we do at whistlekickmarshallarchradio.com. You can find stuff on every episode that we've ever done. This episode is, think if I'm doing the math right, 1,105. So every episode before that you can find there.
Transcripts pictures videos all that stuff and if you want to sign up for exclusive newsletter you can do that there as well But this podcast is one part of what whistle kick does we also have Merchandise like I'm wearing a shirt right now whistle kick athletic department you could buy a hat or hoodies or maybe you want to find out information on the Events that we host throughout the country you can find all of that information at whistle kick calm All right
Greg, let's talk about rank.
Greg Lynham (03:23.284)
Let's talk about writing.
Andrew Adams (03:24.846)
So I came to you because I listened to an episode of your podcast, you and Sue Roberts host the conversations on karate podcast. And maybe some will seem it sacrilegious, but I do listen to other people's martial arts podcasts.
Greg Lynham (03:38.196)
We do.
Greg Lynham (03:46.548)
As everybody should, I listen to so many martial arts podcasts.
Andrew Adams (03:51.838)
Yep. As do I, do I. in the most recent episode as of recording this, you brought up a topic and started talking about something. And I said, you know what? Let's bring Greg on because I think talking about it would be fun and, an interesting conversation. So you are, you have a test coming up for what rank.
Greg Lynham (04:17.387)
Fifth down, fifth degree.
Andrew Adams (04:18.478)
fifth and talk about what, makes your fifth degree test a little bit different than maybe someone else's.
Greg Lynham (04:29.872)
well, I mean, as far as I was aware, and I don't know how common it is, I'm not sure that, from fourth degree upwards, it was more of an honorary grade, a promotion based on still based on certain criteria, but I think the criteria leans maybe more away from physical testing into other things.
And at least that's the case for us that that's what the case would be. and I just thought, I kind of enjoy the idea of still doing a test because for me, a, I feel like I'm still young enough to want to do a test. and I want to do it while I can, cause there'll be a time where I can. and the other reason was,
testing under Ian Arbonati sensei, I tested under him for my fourth degree.
And I feel like I'm a very different martial artist now in terms of not just in terms of ability or skill, but just in terms of martial focus, you know, what I'm focusing on in my training. So I think it's just, it would just be an interesting comparison really between the two.
But yeah, the main reason was I feel like I want to do them while I can, while I'm physically able to do them. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (06:05.708)
Yeah. And, and I think you, not every school obviously is the same. but I, I would say it is fairly common that after you get to a certain rank, whether it's fourth, fifth, sixth, whatever that rank is, I think it is fairly common for them to just be given from your instructor and not be made to perform.
I mean, we call it test for it. You're testing every day you're teaching, right? I mean, you're... But I think what most of us recognize as being given a rank, you have to earn it by standing in front of a group of people and doing stuff. And then at the end you pass or whatever and you get your rank. And I think that's fairly common at higher level grades.
Greg Lynham (06:40.419)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (07:03.828)
listeners or viewers chime in, put in the comments, let us know what is it like at your school. And you are saying, you know what, you could, you have the ability to just say, thank you very much. I will accept this belt and I'm now a fifth on, but you're like, you know what, I want to do stuff. And I think that's really cool because you can.
Greg Lynham (07:28.008)
Yeah, well, thank you for that. I mean, yeah, I think so. The option, yeah, definitely was there for me not to have to do it. It also for me, I mean, because of the organization we're in, it's a big group. And, you know, the guys at the head of the group can't monitor everybody and be like, this guy's due, we need to do that. So it's almost like us reaching out to the organization and saying,
Hey, I've served my time just to let you know I'm ready to be promoted now. For me, that it just didn't feel, it didn't sit right with me to have to not ask for it, but kind of ask for it. So yeah, that's it. I just wanted to do something to feel like I've earned it, I guess.
Andrew Adams (08:23.096)
So this leads into an interesting question, is what are our thoughts on just being given a rank without having to do anything for
Greg Lynham (08:37.364)
See, I don't have a problem with it at all. the story, I can't remember if I said this on our podcast or not, but if I did, I'll say it again, was Joe Andrews, who is grading with me. He's been on the show before as well.
Andrew Adams (08:54.094)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Greg Lynham (08:57.416)
When I did my fourth degree, as a collective and Ian as well, got together and made the arrangements to award Joe his fifth Dan.
And that to me is a different feeling than Joe going to the organization and saying my time's up. I'd like to be awarded my grade. If that makes sense. it's not so much that I, I don't think people should be awarded grades. think absolutely. And there are definitely circumstances where people are unable to grade. know, they've, they've served their time. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (09:22.104)
Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Greg Lynham (09:39.408)
lifetimes over, more than, they've more than earned a promotion. But yeah, just in the sense of having me having to ask and still having the ability to do something, it just sits different than somebody reaching out to you and awarding it to you based on, you know, things they've seen.
Andrew Adams (10:03.094)
Yeah, yeah. And, and, and I would agree. think for speaking for myself, I don't have a problem within an organization at, at a higher rank. I, I think, and I've, spent some time thinking about this in the last few weeks when we, know, when we talked about getting together, you know, I would feel differently if there's a brown belt and they're just said, here's your black belt. Good job. Now, obviously, now obviously.
Greg Lynham (10:30.641)
god yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (10:32.674)
The instructor knows whether that person is putting in air quotes, good enough to have a black belt in their school. But I do think there's something to be said for performing. and, I've, know, we've talked about this on the show in the past about tests and whatnot. And that, you know, for a lot of people testing is an anxiety drive driving force for them. And it's.
It's for them, it can be really difficult to test, but I think that's a reason to do it. And I think for, you know, the first few Dawn ranks, think actually testing and having to perform and demonstrate what, even if it's not a test where someone's grading you with a clipboard, like, you failed this thing and you failed that, but actually doing a presentation or a demonstration. I think it's important, but after a certain rank.
Greg Lynham (11:16.628)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (11:30.23)
What more are you learning from your core art? I mean, there's always gonna be stuff to learn, but I think a lot of the stuff that you're learning comes from the instructing and the teaching and the passing on of the knowledge. I think that makes a lot of sense, and obviously it's up to every school to decide how they're gonna do it for themselves. So yeah, okay, anything else with this before we go on to the next topic?
Greg Lynham (11:47.486)
Yeah, cool. Yeah. Yeah.
Greg Lynham (11:56.126)
I mean, one thing I will say when you spoke about demonstrations is if people out there haven't checked out Roy Dean, Brazilian jujitsu, the whole demonstration, because I know in jujitsu, it is very common not to test at all. Everything is done, you just you're promoted when your level is there. And Roy Dean has a really, really cool
Andrew Adams (12:13.144)
That's fair. Yep.
Greg Lynham (12:25.574)
system where again it's not tests but it's a demonstration of your ability and skill and some of the videos I would I would highly recommend people to go and check them out they're really really cool
Andrew Adams (12:39.438)
Yeah, that's great. You know, you bring up BJJ as an interesting thing and I think the difference, my feeling anyway, the difference between BJJ and other styles of the way they're doing their ranks is even for most of us, okay, non-BJJ, we typically have to do a test. We have to perform, we have to demonstrate, then we got a rank. And so I think that's the culture is you do that.
Greg Lynham (13:01.33)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (13:07.758)
And then at a certain rank, fifth on whatever, you don't have to perform and demonstrate. think the difference with BJJ is they start at the very beginning. There's no, in many, I'm not going to say all, but in many BJJ schools, the culture of the art is, you know, you're a white belt, here's your first stripe and you didn't have to perform, right? So the students are used to that from, from day one.
Greg Lynham (13:28.222)
Yeah, that's very true. Yeah.
Greg Lynham (13:33.779)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (13:34.976)
And so there's no, there's no having to explain to a student why, why is my teacher who's a fifth Don just being given a sixth Don without having to test. kind of have to explain that a little bit to the student who has had to test every rank less so with, with BJJ. So that's a really good point.
Greg Lynham (13:54.056)
Yeah. Well, I mean, we, we, we've actually in our, in our group now kind of have a blending of the two systems because Joe and I both do BJJ as well. And I really liked the, the non testing for the lower ranks. think it, as a, as a, as a teacher, helps me, being able to promote somebody, not because they've ticked a technique off of a board because
You know, the levels within a single belt rank might be slightly different anyway. Somebody's, you know, physical ability might not enable them to do a certain thing, but they're really good at something else. So just because they haven't met the kind of tick list criteria, so to speak, we can still promote them. so we, we do that now up until, our purple belt, which we then kind of feel like purple, brown, black belts and up we, we test for them.
Andrew Adams (14:36.909)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (14:54.157)
And, know, that brings up an interesting discussion about rank in terms of people's physical abilities, right? Let's talk about testing and rank in regards to actually physically being able to do. You know, if you, let's say you have someone in your school that only has one leg, they have a prosthetic leg and they have one real leg, kicking for them is going to be
More difficult. I'm not going to say impossible. I know people that can actually do that, but I would suspect most instructors would not look at a student like that and fail them for testing because they physically can't do something. So here's the question.
If you can do something at a certain, like, let's say as, okay, have so many thoughts running through my head. People, get, you, you, let's say you test for your showdown and you have to do a hundred pushups. So you are saying that in order to get your showed on, have to be able to do a hundred pushups. So if you deteriorate in your skill.
Greg Lynham (15:49.46)
I know the feeling.
Andrew Adams (16:13.789)
Maybe you got a shoulder injury and then you test for your second on and you can't physically do a hundred push-ups Do you not get to test and conversely? Should your rank be taken away? You you had to do a hundred push-ups in order to get your black belt test now You can't do a hundred push-ups. So as people get older should we start taking rank away from them?
Greg Lynham (16:40.948)
Personally, I don't think so.
Andrew Adams (16:43.009)
Mm hmm. Okay.
Greg Lynham (16:45.844)
Ability fades with time. Time is the most undefeated fighter there is, It's unavoidable. People's skill will drop. Not completely, obviously, but knowledge will always be there. I don't think that rank should be taken away. There are circumstances where
It could be. but just because someone's ability isn't what it was, I don't think, I don't think it should be taken away now.
Andrew Adams (17:25.825)
Yeah, and I would agree. think obviously we're looking at extreme circumstances here, but I think, I don't think rank should be taken away. mean, personally, I don't feel like having to do X number of pushups or whatever should be, in my opinion, I don't think that's a true test of what a person can do. That's regard, but irregardless of that, I think the only time rank in my opinion should be taken away,
Greg Lynham (17:32.317)
Yeah, cool.
Greg Lynham (17:46.896)
No, no,
Andrew Adams (17:54.423)
would be for personal reasons. Joe Schmo got a black belt from me and three years later did something so heinous that I don't want them associated with my school anymore. I might then declare, you know, I am stripping you from rank from my school. But the reality is that person earned a black belt from me, you know? And who...
Greg Lynham (18:05.94)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Greg Lynham (18:20.328)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (18:23.904)
Yes, at one point I said they're good enough to have a black belt. So they're good enough to have a black belt. I might not want them associated with my school anymore, but I can't all of sudden take that knowledge away from them.
Greg Lynham (18:37.192)
No, I think you bring up something really interesting there. It's not just about skill. As big a part as skill is, there's that character element that is a big deal in martial arts that comes with the grade.
Andrew Adams (18:51.904)
Absolutely. I actually think in, again, I'm speaking for myself. I think the character aspect has more to do with the skill. That's not to say skill is not important. You need to be able to do things, but I think the character aspect is one part of testing that I think is overlooked more than it should be. I mean, how many jerk black belts do you know?
Greg Lynham (19:06.504)
Yeah, of course,
Greg Lynham (19:14.386)
Yeah, I would agree. Yeah.
Greg Lynham (19:21.694)
yeah, you see it all the time. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (19:24.214)
Yeah. And, if instructors would start holding their students to be better people, I think that we would be better. But, you know, I get it. I get what you're saying. so yeah, so we're both in agreement. Don't take rank away.
Greg Lynham (19:41.852)
No, no, unless like you said, are extreme circumstances where it's necessary. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (19:49.814)
Yeah, yeah. And, you know, as a person gets older and, well, here's the other thing too is I have a very good friend of mine who has multiple sclerosis and can't, like he is physically unable to do certain things. I have another friend with cerebral palsy. Same thing, like physically can't do things.
But they go to this, they go, they went to their school religiously, they trained, they learned their mind is fine. Like it's not, they don't have any impediment learning things. They have an issue doing things. And I think your school's black belts are only representation of what those students have, what your students have learned. And you can learn how to do things without being able to physically do it.
Greg Lynham (20:48.532)
Yeah, of course. Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I think as well.
Greg Lynham (20:59.048)
Especially when someone has something like multiple sclerosis, like you just can't compare yourself to someone of the same rank who doesn't have that. And I think too often people do do that, like that comparison across, know, well, they're this great, so they must be as good as this person. It's like, well, no, that's not necessarily what it is. My jujitsu coach made a really good point a while ago when someone in class was...
bit down on themselves because they weren't quite as able as somebody else and he said it's not about comparing yourself to the person you're training with it's about comparing yourself to the person you were yesterday and I think that is a really really good way of looking at it.
Andrew Adams (21:37.666)
Mmm.
Andrew Adams (21:41.718)
Yeah. Yep. You know, the other thing, the other way I look at it and, and I'm going to tell, tell a story about drumming, but I think it relates. So in, the competitive drumming that I have done in the past, there are different levels, you know, there's different grade levels for, for competing and grade five is the beginner grade and it goes to grade four, grade three, grade two, grade one. Right. And when.
they're separated that way so that the really good drummers are not competing against the beginners, right? We do the same thing in martial arts, right? When you go to a tournament, it's the same thing. I went to a summer school once where all of these drummers were together of different levels, learning lots of different things from different instructors. And one evening they had a competition, a drumming competition, and everybody was allowed to enter. And when I first heard of this, I was like, well, this isn't really fair.
because I'm in grade one and the kid over there, he's in grade three. So he can't play as good as I can. So all of us that are in grade one, like we're going to win. Right. And I asked the instructors like, how is this fair? I'm just curious. And they said, we are going to judge each person on how good they are for their grade. So.
Greg Lynham (22:45.652)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (23:08.013)
If someone as an example played in grade three normally, but they played that day and played as if they were in grade two, even though they're competed at a grade two level and I competed at a grade one level, but I competed and was kind of a crappy grade one, that kid is going to beat me because for his grade, he was being judged against himself essentially. And I was like, that's
Greg Lynham (23:24.852)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (23:35.343)
more people should think of martial arts like that. That this student over here going for a black belt and this student over here going for a black belt, they're testing at the same time. But I know that the capabilities of this student has learning issues with this thing or can't lift his leg up because of this thing. But he gave it his all and as much as he could give, he's worthy to have that belt. I think I like that idea in terms of testing.
Greg Lynham (24:04.37)
Yeah, yeah. And I also think like, every martial art will say, you know, martial arts is for everyone. And that's an easy thing to say. But I think a lot of the times you look at certain places, I mean, especially in BJJ, I feel like it doesn't always come across that it is for everyone.
Andrew Adams (24:25.934)
Mmm.
Greg Lynham (24:27.652)
because, and you see the discussions online, like, well, I've seen that that person should be wearing a black belt. It's like, well, you don't know why they're wearing a black belt. You, you, you're seeing them through a screen. You don't know what they did to get that. You know,
Andrew Adams (24:41.782)
Yeah, exactly. Well, and the other thing is that, and I mentioned this at the beginning, this black belt at this school is not meant to be the exact same as this black belt from this other school, right? They have completely different curriculums, different criteria. A black belt is only a litmus test for where you are in your school.
Greg Lynham (24:54.056)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (25:07.412)
And like you said, you don't know what that person had to go through to get there. You know, they may have physical disabilities that will not allow them to do things. They may have cognitive issues that won't allow them to get certain things. That doesn't mean they're not worthy of having rank. You know, you mentioned in your episode as well that someone in a wheelchair, you know, we've interviewed people on our show who,
Filipino martial artist Carlito Bonjock was here in New England, from California, but he was in New England teaching. And I went to his class. He was phenomenal. He's in a wheelchair. That doesn't mean he can't earn rank and still be able to teach his art.
Greg Lynham (25:57.908)
Yeah, of course, absolutely. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (26:02.134)
Yeah, I dig it. All right. How about let's talk about Junior black belts kid black belt. What are your thoughts? What are your thoughts there? Let's unravel this You were what you were one
Greg Lynham (26:14.578)
was one. I was one. So yeah, I was. Yeah, no, I was I was a young, a young first down. I started when I was really young. So just you know, the way the progression worked, I was young when I when I graded. And my my instructor was was all for Junior Blackbelts.
It's just not a comparison to an adult black belt, which I think is fair. know, you're again, like we like we've been saying, you're you're judging the person based on who they are right now. And I know a lot of places make junior black belts retest when they become a certain age. My instructor was against that. He would get you to do kind of a few things, but it wasn't like you now have to earn this again.
Andrew Adams (26:48.494)
Absolutely.
Andrew Adams (27:14.413)
Hmm, interesting.
Greg Lynham (27:14.97)
because his argument was, well, you know, you graded when you were whatever age you were. I've been testing you every day from that point anyway. So I don't need to make you do it again for something you've already done.
Andrew Adams (27:28.312)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (27:33.526)
Hmm, interesting. I think for me, it depends on what the curriculum is. Like I am a fan of having different curriculum for kids than you do for adults. And I think most people listening or watching would be on board with that. You know, we do some techniques in the adult class that I would not want to teach to kids. So I think there's fine having separate curriculum. And so I'm...
Greg Lynham (27:43.922)
Me too, yeah.
Andrew Adams (28:03.092)
I will state as well that I have no issue with, six, seven, eight, nine, 10 year old kid having a black belt part. I will also preface it by saying partly because I don't care what other schools do. Right now, me personally, I don't know that I would ever award a six year old a black belt, for example, because for me, even if they started at four years old,
You know, you need a little bit time in, but if a student started at six years old and was training regularly for four five years, they're 11 or 12, I could absolutely see awarding them a junior black belt. Now, they're a black belt within the kids' class because they've learned that curriculum. My adult curriculum is different. I would tend to, and we, in my last school, we had students do this. They were...
15 years old when they tested for their showdown. So they got their junior black belt, which was delineated differently from an adult black belt. Like the belt itself was different. And then when they turned 18, they first off, when they got their junior black belt, they were allowed to start coming to adult classes. So 15 years old, they're in the adult class. So they're learning the adult curriculum. And then when they turned 18, they just, they did have to test and demonstrate, but
They didn't have to go through the basics and show blocks and kicks and punches. was, they were, they were demonstrating the adult curriculum that they had not had to previously do before.
Greg Lynham (29:35.87)
Yeah.
Greg Lynham (29:42.642)
Yeah, that maybe I should have said that our classes, when I was coming up through the ranks, we had mixed classes all the time. had kids and adults training together. We don't do that now. But coming up, was, and it's really common here actually, especially in karate, not so much in other arts, but in karate it's very common, mixed classes. So yeah, I think the only thing really that the kids and the adults would do differently would be some two-person drills and obviously the sparring.
aspect. That will be the main differences. in terms of, you know, the key on the cutter and your basic Kumite drills, was fairly similar. Now, with what we do, yeah, we haven't had a junior black belt yet. So I think if that does happen, I think I would be of a different opinion on it in terms of having them regrade because of
Andrew Adams (30:12.43)
Hmm. Yeah.
Greg Lynham (30:41.822)
just the nature of what we do now is not so much solo based work like traditional karate usually is.
Andrew Adams (30:51.702)
Yeah. Yeah. All right. How about rank stripes? What are your thoughts on rank stripes on belts?
Greg Lynham (30:59.058)
I love them. Yeah. My, well, again, it's just because of my instructor always had them. So I, I've always had them. yeah, I've always had them, just because my instructor had them. I know Joe, he never had them until we started training together and he, he was like, why'd you have rank stripes? I was like, well, I just always have, I never thought about.
Andrew Adams (31:01.11)
Yeah, okay. Say more.
Greg Lynham (31:28.73)
not it was just it was just what we did and now he he quite likes the idea of them as well so yeah yeah i like him what about you do you are you for or against them
Andrew Adams (31:40.537)
So my thought on them has changed twice. So when I was a kid and even a young adult, and when I first got my Shodan, I was in my 20s and I was like, yes, I can't wait to get a stripe because it makes me look cooler. That was my thought back then. And then as I became an adult, I started partly because I saw people
Greg Lynham (31:45.863)
Okay.
Andrew Adams (32:09.662)
some people that use them as a badge of being better than. And it was feeding their ego to have these stripes. And so I kind of started to turn against them and I was against rank stripes. in my last school, whether you were a fifth Don or a first Don, you just had a plain black belt. Actually, plain black belt or with kanji on it, but there were no stripes.
Greg Lynham (32:37.992)
Yeah, yeah, and I do like that actually.
Andrew Adams (32:39.962)
And yeah, and that's fine. And that's where I was at, but I've actually come back around and here's why. At that last school, multiple students would not like students of the school wouldn't understand that there were different levels of black belt. They just thought you got your black belt and that's it because they never had a frame of reference as to different
actual levels of black belt. It's one of the reasons why in my school now, when I'm talking to the students in the club that I teach, I don't say the word black belt. I say Shodan. Now granted, I'm teaching a Japanese Okinawan art, so Shodan makes sense. Maybe you're teaching Korean art, you use a different term, whatever. But I don't use the word black belt because saying the word Shodan, they're like, well, what does that mean? And I have to explain to them, well, that means first level.
Greg Lynham (33:09.876)
Yeah, yeah.
Greg Lynham (33:22.8)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (33:38.66)
there's different levels of black belt. Yeah. And so it leads to a good discussion as opposed to he gets his black belt and that's it. So having the different rank stripes is a good way for students to understand that once you get your black belt, it's not over. Right. You can, you're still training, you're still learning things. You're still working on things. You still actually test to get your next rank.
Greg Lynham (34:06.068)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (34:08.106)
So I've come around to it and actually am a fan of having rank stripes now.
Greg Lynham (34:13.352)
Yeah, like I said, I do like both. don't. I also like the idea of even though there are different levels, everyone is essentially the same. But now you said that. Yeah, I absolutely see a point as well. It made me think actually what what's your opinion on the. You know, like the block, the coral belts from, you know, the red and white or I know Jiu Jitsu have red and black and then red and white, but I think, you know.
Andrew Adams (34:42.072)
Yeah. Yeah. so it's, it's just a belt. Like it does. mean, as long as the school and it is absolutely school specific. you know, I know, in the karate styles that I trained in, you typically couldn't get a red white blocked belt often called a Renchi belt, until fifth on in the schools that I would be training at.
Greg Lynham (35:06.91)
Yes.
Andrew Adams (35:11.436)
But I have a friend who got their fourth Don in Taekwondo, and that's the belt that they were awarded. I mean, it's fine. It's their school. They can do whatever they want. I know a martial artist. I think he's a seventh or eighth Don. And the belt that he wears, because this is what his style does, is a purple belt.
Greg Lynham (35:37.566)
Wow, okay.
Andrew Adams (35:39.496)
And it's, you know, purple is the color of nobility in Japan. And it had something to do with that. And I don't really remember, but when you get to a certain level in his art, it's a purple belt.
Greg Lynham (35:53.779)
Wow.
Andrew Adams (35:56.073)
I mean, it means that when he goes places, he might have to do a little bit of explaining, but that's not a bad thing. means that he's disseminating information about his art to other people. And I should be clear. It's a very dark purple, but it's definitely not a black. Like you can tell looking at it, it's not black.
Greg Lynham (36:03.508)
Yeah.
Greg Lynham (36:17.148)
Not black, yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (36:21.752)
So in terms of the red, white belt or the other extra special colored belts, it doesn't bother me because it's whatever your school wants to do.
Greg Lynham (36:22.227)
interesting.
Greg Lynham (36:34.269)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (36:35.352)
But that was a good question. That was good.
Greg Lynham (36:37.582)
get it thank you there are some crazy belts though right like you must have seen especially over you know in the states where you are it's not so much here but i mean i i've seen some you know where you can order belts the some of the designs i think who's wearing these what are for
Andrew Adams (36:57.454)
Yeah. Yeah. mean, I mean, you can get anything you want. Contact Kataro. Kataro is, in my opinion, one of the best belt manufacturers. And I know you've, you've mentioned it on your show as well, that you, love Kataro. And, you know, to be completely transparent, Kataro has sponsored our show in the past. We love them. Doing a recording with one of their employees in a few weeks. They're, they're great, but they also make
Greg Lynham (37:04.296)
Yeah. Katara, yes. 100%.
Greg Lynham (37:24.997)
nice.
Andrew Adams (37:27.016)
incredible belts. You know, Jeremy and Whistlekick designed a belt that Katara made for us, and they're the belts that we wear. And they're a little unique because one side is black and the other side is white. It's not like blocked black and white. It's literally you can put it on so the black side is out. So you're a black belt, or you can take it off, flip it over, put it on, and now it's a white belt.
Greg Lynham (37:28.68)
Yeah, yeah they do.
Greg Lynham (37:46.568)
Yeah.
Greg Lynham (37:57.786)
cool yeah see that's cool I like that
Andrew Adams (38:00.793)
So, you we definitely do some weird belt stuff as well. And because Katara was so amazing, the black side, when it wears down, the inner core is white, like many martial arts black belts. But the white side wears down and it has a black core.
Greg Lynham (38:19.665)
that's cool.
Andrew Adams (38:20.994)
So it's like a, it's kind of like a yin-yang.
Greg Lynham (38:23.334)
Yeah.
That's really cool.
Andrew Adams (38:27.426)
Yeah, so that's kind of neat. go to Katara.com and you can buy one. Greg, what other stuff can we talk about with rank? I mean, the other thing that really bothers me with rank, the biggest thing is people comparing other black belts. Like, I just, hate that. It just, it's so silly.
Greg Lynham (38:29.192)
Yeah, I like that.
Greg Lynham (38:46.3)
Yeah, yeah, I do too. I mean, I've been guilty of it. I think, you know, most people have probably done it whether they want to admit it or not, but it is one of the... Yeah, I can't stand it. You see it all the time online. well, like I said, why is that person wearing a black belt? They're not black belt standards. It's like, okay.
What is a black belt standard? Like you said, it varies from school to school. You can't say this is a black belt standard. It's just not how it works.
Andrew Adams (39:16.962)
Yeah. Well, and I think there's a big difference between, and you're right. think we've all probably done it at some point or another. I definitely will see videos online of people and think to myself that they probably wouldn't get a black belt into my school. But notice what I just said there. I say to myself, they probably wouldn't get a black belt in my school. I don't go online and tell people that because it doesn't matter. It doesn't make any difference.
to me or any of my students that that student over there has a black belt. It just doesn't matter. So why am I going to go online and try and make that person feel bad about it?
Greg Lynham (39:57.896)
Yeah, of course. Yeah, that's the thing as well is there's a big difference between watching something and thinking to yourself, that kind of sucks and talking to your friend who's next to you than taking the time out of your day to post on that video, putting the person down and yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (40:25.535)
Absolutely. What else? Is there anything else we've missed with rank?
Greg Lynham (40:32.892)
I know, it's such a broad topic. It really is.
Andrew Adams (40:35.327)
It is. Maybe a listener or person listening, if you have ideas, drop them in the comments. Let us know, what did we not talk about with Rank? If we get enough of them, maybe I'll have Greg come back and we can discuss those as well.
Greg Lynham (40:49.672)
yeah absolutely absolutely i mean i guess you know one thing you mentioned it a while ago in this chat i've never had to do this i've never made anyone else do this but i think it is quite common especially in kind of like the the full contact karate styles the kyokushin guys stuff like fitness tests on black belt gradings
Andrew Adams (40:52.674)
Awesome.
Andrew Adams (41:14.221)
Mmm.
Greg Lynham (41:18.258)
thoughts? What are your thoughts on that? Because I'm not a fan.
Andrew Adams (41:22.669)
I'm not, I, so I don't think you should be tested on anything that you do not do regularly in your classes. So if you are expecting your students to do a five mile run, how often are you doing a five mile run in your classes? I mean, it would be absurd for like taking it into the martial aspect. It would be.
Greg Lynham (41:43.124)
That's a really good point, yeah.
Andrew Adams (41:52.493)
the same way if on your black belt test, you have to do a spinning, a jumping spinning hook kick. If you don't practice jumping spinning hook kicks in your class, how would you ever expect your student to be able to do that technique?
So to me, the correlation is the same. Now I know there are people listening that are getting ready to go to their keyboards and start typing. Yes, but we're talking about physical fitness, being able to run five miles is a physical fitness thing. Well, yeah. But again, I'm going to go back to the, and I had a discussion with someone online today, just today about this, about.
you can be not quote and air quotes physically fit and still be able to teach martial arts. His assertion was that if you're not physically fit, why are you teaching martial arts? You should really look in the mirror. And I had to kind of come at him and say like, you know what, I'm gonna push back a little bit because some of the most amazing martial artists that I have seen, like you'd watch them do their forms, you'd watch them do their techniques and they are
Greg Lynham (42:41.748)
100 %
Andrew Adams (43:04.574)
amazing and they get in front of a classroom and they try and teach it and it's horrible. They are not good teachers. But that means on the other side of it, you can have someone who is an amazing teacher that can really break things down and get the principles across to the students without being able to physically do it themselves. You know,
Greg Lynham (43:11.508)
Mm-hmm. No.
Greg Lynham (43:30.226)
Yeah. Yeah, I agree.
Andrew Adams (43:33.346)
Someone can be in a wheelchair and teach someone how to kick.
Greg Lynham (43:37.768)
Yeah? Yeah?
Andrew Adams (43:39.225)
So why do you have to be physically fit to be able to teach martial arts? Like that was, that's what I was coming back in with. So, you know, I think if you are having a lot of these cardio things on your tests, you need to be honest with yourself about why is it really there? What is it really showing? Like if your goal is to teach martial arts, what martial arts is pushups teaching? Now again, all you keyboard warriors, hang on.
Yes, pushups, they strengthen your arms. I get that. It can make you a stronger puncher. Like I get all of that stuff, but there are other ways to do that as well. Right. There are other ways to test out how hard someone is punching and if they're punching correctly and things like that. So I personally am not a huge fan of that.
Greg Lynham (44:20.372)
Yeah.
Greg Lynham (44:26.313)
Yeah.
Greg Lynham (44:30.0)
No, no, me neither. We, I mean, like I said in our, in our episode when we were, we were talking about it for our warmups and stuff, I will get people to do pushups sit ups based on their ability. Like I'll always say this. I'll say, this is a number you're shooting for. If you can't do, if you can only do two, then do two really good ones rather than 10 awful ones. Like I'd, I'd, know, I'd rather you do what you can do really well than
Andrew Adams (44:54.028)
Yep. Yep.
Greg Lynham (45:00.046)
and just match a number I've given, you know. But yeah, I've always found it bizarre that you hear these stories of, my grading was three days, and the first day was a 20 mile hike through the mountains of Tibet, and then afterwards I had to, I just said, what? Why is that relevant?
Andrew Adams (45:20.782)
Yeah. Yeah. And, I've seen those two where they're not necessarily three days, but you know, there's, know, the first half hour, 45 minutes is jumping jacks and four peas and mountain climbers and all of these things. And the only reason that they're doing it is to make the person really tired. And in some cases to the point of exhaustion, then they have to do more stuff.
Greg Lynham (45:34.548)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (45:50.411)
And it's, I, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm not a fan. And if you are in a school like that, put the comments below, let us know how your tests are. And if you're a fan of that, tell us why maybe, maybe you can change my mind. Like I am not close-minded about any of this stuff. If you can, if my mind can change about rank stripes twice, maybe you can change my mind about the, all of this cardio stuff on a test as well. So I would encourage you shoot.
Greg Lynham (46:02.215)
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (46:18.504)
Shoot me message. You can email me andrew at whistlekick.com Or you can like I said, you can comment in the the link below comment in the video
Greg Lynham (46:28.808)
Yeah, yeah, that would be interesting to hear people's opinions on that. Because like, yeah, I mean, like we've said before, it goes against the idea of, you know, what the rank means in a sense. I'm all for hard classes.
You know, you can have an insanely hard class. Absolutely. And you should. There should be classes where you're just glad it's over. At the end.
But you shouldn't be... I don't think you should be tested on that.
Andrew Adams (47:10.23)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. All right. Well, Greg, thanks so much for coming back. I appreciate that. Yeah. And if, if people want to reach out to you or listen to your show, talk a little bit about how they can find you.
Greg Lynham (47:17.076)
No, thank you for having me.
Greg Lynham (47:26.492)
We are everywhere we're on Facebook conversations on karate website conversations on karate. My personal Instagram is at G Linham 1990 contrary to what most people think and I really didn't think this through. My name is not Glyn Ham.
Greg Lynham (47:50.482)
You'd be surprised how many times I've sent an email and I get a response with, Glyn. No, it's, I need to change that, but that is my Instagram. That's probably the best way to reach me. And yeah, yeah, we're everywhere.
Andrew Adams (47:59.822)
DREG LIONS
Andrew Adams (48:10.432)
Excellent. Well, thank you so much again. If you're a new person of this, your first episode, thank you. Appreciate it. Hope, hope we didn't drive you away. whistlekick martial arts radio.com to find out all of the episodes we've done whistlekick.com to find out all of the other things we do. Maybe you want to buy some sparring gear. we do have some, some belts there as well. all kinds of stuff you can find there. Whistlekick.com. So go check it out. Greg, thank you so much and we'll see you next time.
Greg Lynham (48:40.274)
Yeah, thank you for having me.