Episode 1129 - Why Many Martial Artists Quit Just Before They Get Good
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew discuss the reasons why a large number of martial artists stop training, right before they start getting good.
Why Many Martial Artists Quit Just Before They Get Good - Episode 1129
SUMMARY
In this episode, Jeremy Lesniak and Andrew Adams discuss the reasons why many martial artists quit training just before they achieve significant progress. They explore the emotional and psychological factors that contribute to this phenomenon, including the excitement factor in training, the impact of instant gratification, and the pressure of expectations. The conversation emphasizes the importance of focusing on effort over results, the role of instructors in fostering a supportive environment, and the need for students to take ownership of their growth. The episode concludes with thoughts on self-reporting progress and the importance of continuous learning beyond the black belt.
TAKEAWAYS
Many martial artists quit right before achieving their goals.
Training can lose excitement, leading to disengagement.
Instant gratification affects long-term commitment in martial arts.
Effort should be praised over results to encourage persistence.
Instructors must model vulnerability and accept mistakes.
The black belt is often seen as the end goal, leading to dropout.
Students need to feel empowered to track their own progress.
Self-reporting can help students recognize their growth.
Creating a safe learning environment is crucial for retention.
Continuous learning should be emphasized beyond the black belt.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
02:38 Understanding Why Martial Artists Quit
03:47 The Excitement Factor in Training
05:57 The Impact of Instant Gratification
08:13 The Emotional Toll of Progress
11:42 The Pressure of Expectations
14:17 The Importance of Effort Over Results
18:00 The Role of Instructors in Student Retention
10:09 The Black Belt Dilemma
21:00 Empowering Students for Growth
23:40 Self-Reporting and Personal Progress
25:54 Closing Thoughts and Future Directions
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy Lesniak (06:38.697)
Hey, what's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick, a martial arts radio, the world's number one traditional martial arts podcast. And on today's episode, Andrew and I are going to talk about why so many martial artists quit training right before they get.
something I bet a lot of you have seen. We're going to unpack why it happens and what to do about it. If you're a school owner, you definitely want to stay tuned for this one for that part. If you're new to the show, I'm Jeremy Lesniak, founder here at Whistlekick, joined by my good friend, co-host, producer of the show, Andrew Adams. Andrew.
Andrew Adams (07:17.526)
I'm great. How are you today?
Jeremy Lesniak (07:19.753)
I am I'm good. I'm really good. It's Tuesday. I don't remember what day was. We're recording this on Tuesday. It's going to air on a Thursday, but the audience might be listening to it any day of the week at any point into the future. Maybe one day. They'll be listening to it in the past. Maybe we reach that point when that be crazy.
Andrew Adams (07:29.795)
Mm-hmm.
Who knows?
Andrew Adams (07:43.828)
Yeah, I mean, we'd have to somehow tap into the speed force. That's a flash reference for those of you that don't know.
Jeremy Lesniak (07:51.901)
Yeah. Who knows? Who knows? Maybe dinosaurs are watching this episode right now. Because that's what I would do. If I could travel through time, I'd go back, see the dinosaurs, and I'd play the podcast episodes.
Andrew Adams (07:55.852)
Who knows?
Andrew Adams (08:07.086)
you
Jeremy Lesniak (08:08.969)
All right. If you're new to the show, this is what we do. We talk about martial arts. Sometimes we're a little silly, but mostly what we do is we do things for you, the traditional martial artists of the world. And if you want transcripts or links or any of the other well over 1000 episodes that we have done, you should visit WhistlekickMarshallArtsRadio.com. Now, Whistlekick is a lot more than this podcast. We have everything from the best protective equipment to a variety of events, fun
apparel and much, more, more than you're going to tolerate me telling you about. So go to whistlekick.com and see all of that. And if you want all of these episodes emailed to you, you can sign up for a newsletter at whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com. And now it's time to start. All right, Andrew. You've been around a while. I've been around a while. We've seen so many. I can't even tell you how many martial artists that they progress and all of a sudden they're just like, I'm out.
And you're like, but you were, the goals that you said you had, you were really close to achieving.
Andrew Adams (09:16.686)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, and there are lots of different reasons why people leave in general, but I think the time that I see it happen the most is usually right before or right after attending their black.
Jeremy Lesniak (09:36.753)
Yeah. Yeah, I see a lot. I think I've seen more in that red brown belt phase leave than after black belt. But I see so many a surprising number leave at that red brown belt phase. And, you know, we've got a few things here that we're going to talk about that are ultimately the responsibility of the student. But also those of us who
Andrew Adams (09:44.269)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (09:51.31)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:04.113)
have come before, right? Whether we're instructors or simply senior students, we bear some responsibility with this too. And the first one we're going to talk about is training stops feeling exciting or fun.
Andrew Adams (10:17.228)
Yeah. Yeah. I think the point where training stops feeling exciting is definitely a pivotal moment for a student. it, if it's not, we we've talked on the show a lot about everything is a value exchange, right? And so if it's not exciting, you as a student, aren't feeling like you're getting anything. And so it become, it can become to the point of why Bob.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:42.653)
Yeah, I think so often we in Western culture, we are rooted in the new. We want new because if it's not new, it really can't be better. If it's not that shiny upgrade, we seem to look at it as the same old same old. There isn't a lot of refinement in our society. We don't know a lot. You know, if you look at the numbers, you know,
Andrew Adams (11:03.694)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:12.093)
The number of people who go to the gym and refine their body, or the number of people who have a hobby where they're constantly chipping away at getting better at something, doesn't happen a lot. Honestly, the place where it happens the most is video games.
Andrew Adams (11:28.054)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:31.133)
But within traditional martial arts, that's kind of what it's all rooted in. And at some point, you run out of new. Or the gap between the last new thing I learned and the next new thing I learned becomes kind of big. And from what I've seen, that does tend to happen a lot at that red-brown belt level.
Andrew Adams (11:47.596)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (11:54.255)
And I think we also currently live in a world of instant gratification, where we're used to things immediately seeing the results or not even results, but we see the thing being affected and changed right away. And that is not the case with traditional martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:17.353)
Yeah. We, we do a pretty good job when people are at lower ranks, giving them new things. Okay. You're going to this technique. You're going to learn this. You're going to learn this form. We're going to teach you how to spar. We're going to teach you how to break boards. We're going to teach you how to grapple or throw. We're going to teach you this arm bar. Right. We do, we set people up that the value, you brought up value exchange before that the value prioritizes new things, not refinement.
Andrew Adams (12:46.894)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:47.945)
And when you get to a point where maybe you've been training, if you're if you're a red brown belt, you've been training two, three, four, five years. You've been brought up to chase that next new thing. That's the high, so to speak. If you're a martial arts addict, it's chasing that new technique or form. But what we don't do. I think we don't communicate.
the refinement piece because it tends to have a lot of it happens organically. As you learn this form, your earlier forms tend to get better because you're practicing them more. But we don't spend a lot of time saying, you know, by the time you reach your blue belt, green belt, purple belt, that first form should look more like this. We highlight you have to know it, not the progressive standards that you need.
Andrew Adams (13:29.868)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:45.821)
to demonstrate as you improve.
Andrew Adams (13:48.195)
Yeah. And I think the, I think part of that stems from when you're learning it as a very beginner, the progress is very quick. you, you, there's a lot that you're working on and you see the results immediately. And as you progress in rank, you're still getting better at those things, but the, the speed at which they're getting better is much smaller.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:13.277)
Yeah, it's it's harder to see. It's like if you and I go get a haircut a week later, it's pretty obvious that our hair has grown because we don't have any. Someone with longer hair is not going to know me. They they. They're not going to know, right? If you're if you're a woman with long anybody with long hair, it's harder to see a week's worth of growth. You could say the same thing about training. If you've been training for a month or two.
Andrew Adams (14:23.042)
Yep. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:43.323)
You can see, okay, I went from knowing nothing to knowing this. If you've been training three or four years, it becomes really difficult to measure progress over days and weeks. You're probably not even looking at months, you're looking at quarters in years.
Andrew Adams (14:56.686)
Yeah, yeah. And I think as an advanced student or intermediate advanced, depending on how you look at it, but someone who's getting up in rank, that early progress creates some unrealistic expectations for the now.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:14.863)
Absolutely. And I think one of the things we could do better is high. I think there are a lot of things we can do. One of them is focusing on effort, not results. It's one of the big things that I that we work on in my school is praising effort, not praising result. And I see a lot of schools where you get someone who's really talented and they're picking it up.
Andrew Adams (15:34.702)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:43.517)
they're not trying super hard, they're naturally talented or, you know, they've just started, so anything is progress. And you say, that looks good. Yes, you're doing that correctly. Good job with that. And it doesn't give them the chance to flex and build those muscles around effort and being able to kind of grind out progress, which we know becomes more and more important.
as we progress in Rankin scale.
Andrew Adams (16:13.87)
Yeah, that's a really good point.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:20.455)
There's an emotional effect that occurs early on in this process, the plateaus and the embarrassment that go along with not being able to pick things up right away. I can't tell you how many students, and we've talked about this, there's almost a cliche in what I've observed where you get someone who starts at eight, nine, 10 years old. They have played a bunch of sports outside martial arts.
So they know how their body works. Their parents see the value in it. So they're coming all the time and they progress really quickly. They learn their first form and their second form and their third form. And they're, they're really quickly moving up in rank and their skill holds steady. And they inevitably reach a point where that natural progression, that, that natural athlete in them.
is no longer enough to carry them over the edge. Maybe it's because they already know so many forms that it's stuffing a new one in there is difficult. Or maybe a form contains a technique or a skill that isn't worked on often in class, know, something with jumping or spinning or, or something that's just a more technical sequence. And they have a hard time doing it, but they haven't built the muscles to have patience and grind through not being great at something.
Andrew Adams (17:28.963)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (17:45.533)
because everyone's told them their results are what is valuable about them. And now they're 11, 12 years old and they're embarrassed because they can't pick it up. And there are other people around them who can and think about what happens generally at that adolescent phase. You're starting to see yourself as older than you're starting to look at yourself as a young adult. So you're comparing yourself probably not to the six year old behind you.
Andrew Adams (18:07.458)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:12.819)
But to the adults in front of you, they can do it. I can't. I'm useless. I'm going to quit.
Andrew Adams (18:18.732)
Yeah. And, and I think the other same coin, but a different edge of that coin is you're getting up in rank. So you are expected by everybody lower than you to be better. And when you are learning a new thing, it's let's face it, it's new, you're going to make mistakes, but now the people that are behind you in rank are seeing you making mistakes. And that can cause an emotional toll as well. Like I shouldn't be making mistakes because I'm a
Jeremy Lesniak (18:34.237)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (18:48.302)
But it's still a new thing that you're learning. So obviously there's going to be mistakes, but that can be embarrassing.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:56.393)
Yeah. And again, if we go back, praising effort over results means that's not as big of a deal. In fact, you know, no shocker, I spend a good amount of time paying attention to the business and entrepreneurial world. And one of the things that comes up frequently in those conversations, in those books is a focus on
Andrew Adams (19:04.077)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:26.931)
I don't like the word, but failure. To the point where it's sort of this cliche among high functioning parents to ask their children at the dinner table, what did you fail at today?
If you're not failing, and the reason I don't like the word failures, because it suggests you're done trying. But if you if you take it the way it's meant in that context. If you're not failing, you're not finding your boundaries. Safe failure. Is how you know your limits and gives you an ability to to identify where to spend your time. I couldn't I couldn't break four boards, but I could break three.
How do I make breaking three boards more difficult?
How do I break three and a half boards? Right.
Andrew Adams (20:19.15)
you
Jeremy Lesniak (20:23.613)
And this is where schools accidentally lose people. They're not trying to throw them out. They're not trying to set these high standards that are unattainable based on the way they've raised their students.
but they are focused on results, not effort.
Andrew Adams (20:42.444)
Yeah, exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:47.443)
I've been talking more, I want you to talk more, I'm sorry.
Andrew Adams (20:48.75)
Yeah, I think it has to come from the top, right? From this, it's messaging. It's a mindset really, in a lot of cases, more than anything else, is letting the students know that it's a safe place to make mistakes for everyone, regardless of rank, which sometimes means the instructor makes mistakes, right? Absolutely, right?
Jeremy Lesniak (20:54.921)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:07.368)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:12.073)
100 % of the time means the instructor. can I, cause I want to hit this point cause we've taught, we've both talked about it. We both think it's really important. If you are unwilling to demonstrate things in front of your students that are imperfect, you are setting them up for this problem. I would guess that in, if we were to be able to find data on this, if we were going to make data on this, right? Like do research.
We would find that the schools with the worst version of this problem, that the most students leave before they get good. We would see that the fewest number of high ranking students are demonstrating their imperfections in front of those students.
Andrew Adams (21:57.902)
Yeah, yeah. And it's unrealistic to expect someone to never make mistakes, which means we as instructors, I definitely make mistakes. It happens, right? And being able to accept those in front of students makes them see that it's okay for them to also make mistakes, which I think can help alleviate, help alleviate this issue specifically of
Jeremy Lesniak (22:09.959)
all the time.
Andrew Adams (22:26.989)
being embarrassed or hitting a plateau and not feeling like you're allowed to make mistakes. And I think your praising effort is a very important and major thing for people to consider.
Jeremy Lesniak (22:44.263)
that applies to you too, right? As the instructor, I need to value my own effort, not just my own results. Yes, I want to get good at these things. We all want that. We want to check off the box. We want to learn that form. We want to do that technique. We want to be able to spar that person and know it, complete it, win it, whatever.
Andrew Adams (22:50.649)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (23:06.995)
But if you as an instructor, I'm going to be a little harsh for a moment. If your self-worth is so entirely wrapped up in what you can do rather than the effort you put in, the school you're building, the people you're uplifting. If it's all about what you can do to the point that you're not willing to show what you can't do or what you are working on, you are setting your students up to
be less successful, have more turnover, and not grow the sort of school that you likely claim you want. So it requires a bit of vulnerability. There's nothing wrong with making a mistake. Andrew, what's your joke there, make a mistake? Yeah.
Andrew Adams (23:55.651)
Bake it a cake, celebrate it. mean, mistakes are how we grow. Mistakes are how we learn. And so I've involved with an organization that has this quote, make a mistake, bake it a cake, celebrate your mistake, understand what it was, how to fix it. And then you can work on it. But if you don't, if you take all of your mistakes and put it, push it under a rug, you're not going to be able to fix them. So.
Make a mistake, bake in a cake.
Andrew Adams (24:30.292)
I think, you know, the other, of this, in my opinion, probably 90, 90 % of it comes from the top down. And one of the things that we can do better, I think as instructors or, or people who are presenting material to people is, and I know I've mentioned this before. A lot of students, once they get their black belt, they leave. I think that's a very, very common thing that happens. And I think.
in a lot of cases, it's because they, the student, see the black belt as the end. And I think we as instructors need to relay to our students that it's not the end. There is stuff that happens afterwards, you know, keeping in mind that you can keep going. There is still stuff to learn.
Dangerous phase is when training becomes ordinary. When they think that they're done and it's regular and ordinary, they don't see a desire to stay.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:30.185)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:39.457)
And sure, so many schools black belt is held up as the standard rather than the focus on continual progress. yeah, plenty of schools paint themselves into a corner. Get your black belt, get your black belt, get your black belt, get your black belt. Okay, now it's a task. Now it's a checkbox. Now it's it's a thing I accomplish. And those same schools, why why do so many students quit after their black belt? Because you told them that that was the goal.
Andrew Adams (26:07.564)
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:07.911)
And if you tell them for years, this is the goal and they achieve the goal, don't expect them to stick around for another goal because you ask them to spend how many years on that last one. And that's a much most people spend more, spend more time earning a black belt in a martial art than they do choosing to attend school. Most people takes them more than four years to earn a black belt.
For people who go to college, very few of them go beyond four years. So now the majority of the population has never put five years, four, five, six years into a goal. That's a long time to ask people to stay focused on one thing. So of course, yeah, they're tired. They've put a lot into achieving that goal.
Andrew Adams (26:42.127)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (26:48.267)
Interesting. I hadn't thought of that, but that's a really interesting point. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:00.029)
So as instructors, as school owners, yeah, as we shift that focus from rank and outcome to effort and growth, there's a lot of good stuff that can happen. Now, of course, how can the students make sure they stick around long enough to have that transformation? It's focusing on little things. It's focusing on efforts. It's focusing on tiny milestones.
We need to be better making sure students feel empowered to check their own progress. And the number one tool I see for that is recording things on a phone. Once a week, once a month, whatever, record a handful of things that you're working on. Watch them. Watch the old video. Does it look a little better? Yeah, that's progress. We can't just completely outsource.
Andrew Adams (27:36.739)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:00.841)
our valuation of our efforts. Sure, we need an instructor to help us understand what's good and bad. But for example, I was I was visiting a school last night and helping some folks out with some forms, forms I've forgotten, but recognized. And so I'm working with some of these students and every single one of them knew what they were working on.
Some of it was because the instructor had told them. Some of them it was because they had enough awareness to go, you know, I have a hard time with my balance on this part. I feel like I could do this part better. This part doesn't feel right over here. Well, now you know what you should be working on, which means you can focus on your own effort and celebrate. Hey, I refined that. Good job, me.
Andrew Adams (28:42.904)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (28:50.415)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I think keeping in mind as well that you're as a student, your growth can also come from effort you put in, not just the instructor teaching you. Like it's one thing to have an instructor show you or tell you and show you how to do the thing, but you need to take some ownership of that growth as well and, and putting the time in. And I think
videoing yourself is a great way to do that, to really notice the progress that you have been making. Because you can see instantly this video from three months ago of me doing this forum, for example, is going to be very different. Hopefully, you'll notice the differences in a good way. That it's better now, three months later. But you don't necessarily notice that if you don't have something to reference it to.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:49.821)
One of the things we talk about over on the MADC side, the MADC division, martial arts teacher training and certification, is that as instructors, we can't make someone learn. We can only create the environment in which they can learn. Which means every single student who learns, learns of their own effort. The effort is going in.
Andrew Adams (30:00.897)
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (30:10.993)
Some students put in more effort than others. That's OK. Everyone's not going to. Progress in the same way, I like to say we're all on the same path. We just our footsteps land in different places. Sometimes we're walking, sometimes running once in a while, we've got to take a step back so we can launch jump over a puddle. But there's still that that effort, that trackable effort, and one of the things I've been playing with and I haven't quite solved it yet.
And so I'll throw it out there because maybe there are schools out there that do something like this. I'm trying to find a way for self reporting on both hard and soft skills. How do you feel about this form? How do you feel about these techniques? How do you feel about your sparring? But also where's your stress level?
Jeremy Lesniak (31:04.893)
How are you sleeping? How do you feel about your body? Right? There are so many things. We talk about these. We tell students, these are the things we're going to do for you and with you. But I want to find a better way for people to understand their progress, because I really think when they get to those longer stretches, you know, like we're talking about here, quitting right before they get good, so to speak.
I think it'll help carry some of them through. Well, you know what? I'm still a brown belt. I'm still a red belt. I'm still a high purple belt. And I know I've got more time before I can really know this thing or have my time in or whatever it is before I can earn my next stripe or belt.
But I have been working hard and you know what?
those pants fit a little better or that person at work that drives me nuts has been driving me a little less nuts over the last six months. And if we can correlate those things, we'll keep people. So that's my request. If anybody out there has a system for that, please reach out to me, jeremyatwisalkick.com.
Andrew Adams (32:09.12)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:24.147)
Did we miss anything? we suitably?
Andrew Adams (32:26.06)
Nope, mean, I think that's good. People may have, if you have thoughts or opinions, not just on you're looking for that, anything, you, this episode resonates with you, let us know. You can reach me, andrew at whistlekick.com.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:40.435)
Yeah, this we post these episodes everywhere. The videos are on YouTube and Spotify. The audio is in every podcast player. And of course, the easiest way to find all of it is whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com. can go in, you'll get the transcript for the episode when we do guest interviews or have other cause to link things. It'll be linked right there. It's really the simplest way to get all the stuff because when we post up things, you know, like YouTube doesn't
They strip out some of it. You know, we can't put the transcript. There's a lot that we can't do on there. So keep that in mind. The transcript also lets you search control. What was that part they said? What was that thing? Yeah, so. All right. Closing it up, Andrew, is that what we're doing? OK.
Andrew Adams (33:30.03)
Let's do it.
Jeremy Lesniak (33:31.827)
To everybody out there, thank you for spending some time with us. We appreciate you. Please make sure you sign up for the newsletter. And if you love what we do, support us in any way that you see fit. You can join the Patreon where we give you more. There's behind the scenes. You want to know what episodes are coming up? It's the only place you're going to find it. So you can sign up there. Sign up at whistlekickmartialarchradio.com. We're constantly doing more stuff. So topics, guest suggestions, whatever. However we can help you as we...
endeavor to connect, educate, and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world, which means you.
Let us know. And that brings us to a close until next time. Train hard, smile and have a great day.
Andrew Adams (34:11.79)
Train hard, smile, and have a great day.