Episode 1145 - Why Black Belt Doesn’t Mean What People Think It Means
Jeremy and Andrew discuss why a black belt doesn’t mean what people think it means, both by people in the martial arts world and by those outside of it.
Why Black Belt Doesn’t Mean What People Think It Means - Episode 1145
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Jeremy and Andrew delve into the misconceptions surrounding the black belt in martial arts. They discuss how the public perception often equates black belt with mastery, leading to divisive opinions within the martial arts community. The hosts emphasize that black belt should be viewed as a beginning of a deeper journey in martial arts rather than an endpoint. They explore the influence of popular culture, the subjectivity of rank, and the psychological impact of rank on students, advocating for a shift in how black belts are perceived and discussed.
TAKEAWAYS
Black belt is often misunderstood as a symbol of mastery.
The public perception of black belts is influenced by popular culture.
Different martial arts schools have varying definitions of black belts.
Black belt should be seen as a beginning, not an end.
Subjectivity plays a significant role in rank evaluations.
The psychological impact of rank can affect student retention.
Cobra Kai and similar shows contribute to misconceptions about martial arts.
Martial arts training is about personal growth and education.
We need to change the narrative around black belts in the community.
Rank should not be treated as proof of skill outside one's school.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
03:03 Understanding the Misconceptions of Black Belts
05:57 The Role of Popular Culture in Martial Arts Perception
08:55 The Subjectivity of Martial Arts Ranks
11:52 Black Belt as a Beginning, Not an End
15:01 The Importance of Context in Martial Arts Training
17:55 The Psychological Impact of Rank on Students
21:01 Changing the Narrative Around Black Belts
23:57 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy (00:14.092)
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. My name's Jeremy Lesniak, and I'm here with my great friend Andrew Adams. That's you. And and I am glad you're here. How are you?
Andrew Adams (00:26.248)
Me.
Andrew Adams (00:30.234)
I'm great. I'm not digging this heat wave that we currently are having, but that's it's it's not gonna be here forever, so that's okay.
Jeremy (00:34.432)
my god.
Jeremy (00:40.32)
If I was less tired as a result of the heat, I don't do well in the heat. I would find a way to make a joke that brought together, you know, the the the Reese's that your peanut butters in my chocolate, chocolate in my peanut butter. something about Florida's weather is in my New England. And I don't like it. Because yeah, and it's just it's just gross. It's gross out there. And
Andrew Adams (00:55.589)
yeah, yep.
Andrew Adams (01:00.724)
Yeah.
Jeremy (01:09.844)
That has absolutely nothing to what to do with what we're going to talk about today. What we're going to talk about today is this idea that black belt doesn't mean what people seem to think it means. It is a long-standing argument on the internet. And our goal today is to talk about it. We're and get you to think, right? As always on Martial Arts Radio, we don't tell you what to think. Our goal is to get you to think. And if you listen
or watch, hopefully you watch our episodes, with an open mind and you consider what we are saying and you do not actually change your opinion, that is perfectly acceptable. What we don't like, and I don't think there are too many of you out there like this.
Hate watching and just saying, these guys these guys without hair are stupid.
Andrew Adams (02:02.217)
All all their brains have come out 'cause they don't have hair holding it in.
Jeremy (02:04.664)
Right. there yeah, yeah. There's no there's no hair holding their intelligence and it leaked out. And how how can they how can they think this? Right. So if you're new to the show, that's kind of a silly intro. And sometimes we are silly. Sometimes we have fun. We do try to have fun. Our slogan ears connect, educate, and entertain. If you're not enjoying the episode, you're probably not going to stick around. Just like if you don't enjoy your training, you're probably not going to continue training.
Why do we do all of this? Because we believe martial arts makes people better. And specifically, traditional martial arts training, even for six months, brings out a better side of all of us. And that is our goal at Whistlekick and here at Martial Arts Radio. This is just one of the many ways that we have to get you engaged as a martial artist. We also do events, we do a whole bunch of stuff, and you can learn more at whistlekick.com. And if you want to support the show, because we bring you two episodes a week, and it's all for free.
Sign up for the newsletter. Why? Because that helps us make sure our numbers move in the right direction. We email you and say, hey, here's an episode. And you say, I want to listen to the audio. And you click that button in the email. Or you say, I want to watch the video. And you click that button in the email. We also sometimes have clips and other, you know, behind the scenes stuff in there. We're not going to spam you. It's a whole different list than any of the other lists we have for Whistlekick. So just join it. How do you join it? You go to whistlekickmartialarts radio.com and you sign up there.
It's super easy. It'll take you seconds. There are a bunch of you who've been signing up the last few weeks because I get reports and I see it and thank you. And that helps our show grow. And that's a good thing. All right. Intro done.
Andrew Adams (03:48.072)
Okay, done.
Jeremy (03:49.699)
Done. Okay. Andrew. Is there a subject in the world of traditional martial arts that is more discussed and potent and I even say divisive as what a black belt is and who should have it and and all that?
Andrew Adams (03:52.467)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (04:13.959)
No, I think it's probably the most divisive subject that we have.
Jeremy (04:18.08)
I I would agree. I I would agree. It doesn't take long on any martial arts social media to find people saying they don't deserve that rank. And quite frequently the material being put out is someone who does have a black belt and they're wearing it. And people chiming in saying, you don't you don't deserve that.
Andrew Adams (04:45.949)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jeremy (04:46.51)
Right. That's the noise that I make for for vague ignorance and and displeasure. Rah That's that's how people sound in my brain when they're doing that.
Andrew Adams (04:59.303)
Yeah, I it it pretty much every single video you see online, whether it's YouTube or on Facebook or TikTok, of someone performing something. whether it's a technique with a a student or a partner doing some sort of a drill, or whether it's someone performing forms, or whether it's someone doing braking. It doesn't matter. It w
Every single video out there, with rare exception in my opinion, will have some sort of person saying something to that effect.
Jeremy (05:36.211)
And I think that this primarily comes from this myth from either from from the general public and from lower-ranked martial artists, non-black belts. There's this myth that black belt means mastery. That when you are a black belt, you are a master and an expert, and some go so far as to say infallible.
Andrew Adams (05:57.353)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (06:02.717)
Yeah. Yeah. The and the other thing that I see a lot is that and this is more from the uneducated basic okay. Let me back that up. I don't mean you are not educated as a person. I meant the person that is not a martial artist. They're not educated in martial arts, right? And those people often think, if you have a black belt you can beat up anybody.
Jeremy (06:30.488)
And to be fair, some of that has come from popular culture, and as an industry, we have not w put in any effort to change the public's perception.
Andrew Adams (06:47.485)
Yeah, a absolutely. And you know, and in a lot of people's eyes, again, for non martial artists, black belt is the end. Once you get your black belt, you're done, and so you must know everything. That and again, I'm I'm talking about people who have never trained martial arts. That's just the the public perception of what it is.
Jeremy (07:04.205)
Right.
Right. And and the best example I can think from modern popular culture is the Cobra Kai TV series. And if you watch that show, you will see very quickly that even the lower to middle ranked students are actually quite skilled. You know, you you you see white belts doing things that are not white belt things. And it reinforces this idea that, if that
Andrew Adams (07:12.851)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (07:26.44)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (07:37.09)
That person there who is a white belt, who is so much beyond what I would do in my first few classes, that must mean that the black belt knows
so many layers beyond. And that's fine. And in in fact, I mean we've got some some tie I f I forget what episode it was that we had the the writer, what was his name? Yeah, John Hurwitz was on the show and and we had a great chat and you know he's not a martial arts expert. He has some martial arts training, but he's not, you know, out there
Andrew Adams (08:07.603)
John Hurwitz.
Jeremy (08:21.334)
And was not out there rep you know saying, I'm gonna write a show that represents high rank martial artists accurately. But yet what did so many schools do as a result? They used Karate Kid and Cobra Kai imagery in their marketing.
Andrew Adams (08:37.832)
Yeah. Yep.
Jeremy (08:39.33)
That is an implicit endorsement of the show, which means the public is seeing that and saying, well, it must be accurate.
Andrew Adams (08:49.341)
Yeah. Yeah. And for those that might want to listen to that episode, it was episode five one four. yeah, yeah, was that was a a good listen. I think you're absolutely right. You know, pe the the general public sees Cobra Kai and sees these these actors as white belts. And and you know, the other thing that I just as an aside was interesting that it was in Cobra Kai it was either white belt or black belt.
Jeremy (08:55.704)
Good talk, good guy. Good guy. I like John. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (09:18.941)
That was it.
Jeremy (09:21.099)
Mm, right.
Andrew Adams (09:22.289)
Interesting. But anyway, I I digress. I think the other thing that we need to keep in mind here is that people commenting that are martial artists, they see a video online and they're like, that's that you know, that person's on a black belt. Well, they're not a black belt in your school. You know, e every every school defines a black belt differently.
Jeremy (09:46.361)
Yeah. And in fact, I don't think that that is unfortunate. I don't think that is an accident. I think and and I I I haven't said this on the show for a while, but different schools defining their ranks, all of them, differently is consistent with them defining their curriculums differently, with having different approaches to training. And to me, this is
the notion of the free market within martial arts, which I absolutely love. Why? Because over time, if we keep the barriers down between schools and people are training with each other, we start to pick up, hey, you know, we do this, you do that. I feel like that thing works better. I'm gonna make an adjustment. That's the beauty of cross-trading and
Andrew Adams (10:19.783)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (10:36.371)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (10:42.796)
you know, like the events that we do, like Marshall Summit in November. It exposes people to other ideas and it allows them to say, let's make some change. So where a black belt is in a particular school shouldn't be standardized, because how can it be?
Andrew Adams (11:00.425)
Yeah, there's realistically, there's just no way for that to happen because curriculums are all going to be different. Even I mean, take me as a perfect example. I'm currently training. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. you know, I'm currently training in a Shor and Roo school, and my last school was also a Shor and Roo school, but
Jeremy (11:17.132)
You are a perfect example. You're welcome.
Andrew Adams (11:29.341)
They have different forms. They do things differently. So even within the same style, these two different schools are completely different. And so naturally their curriculum is going to be completely different. So how could you make a s standardized and air quotes if you're only listening, exam to make every black belt the same?
Jeremy (11:52.365)
It's it's not possible. And here is the proof. Take a look at an organization. Any organization, even with a unified curriculum and with strongly structured credentialing, you know, in order to open a school, you have to achieve this rank, etc. Even if we take that.
Jeremy (12:16.916)
Any promotions that occur at the different schools, there are people that don't hold the standard in other schools. Why? Because 98% of what we evaluate people on is subjective. And so I'm gonna have my own biases, you're gonna have your own biases. We can run a school with the same curriculum raised by the same instructor for the same amount of time and
Andrew Adams (12:33.863)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Jeremy (12:46.08)
Maybe I'm more of a a stance person and you're more of a kicking person. And so if I'm watching someone who's on the bubble of earning their next rank, you know, but their stances are really good, but their stances really aren't that good. And so I may push them one side or the other where you may not notice the stances in the same way. You're dialed in on the kicks.
Andrew Adams (12:53.043)
Yep, yep.
Andrew Adams (13:14.205)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's all gonna be different, right? All gonna be different.
Jeremy (13:20.46)
And I think this is why for a lot of people the the response to this, they don't deserve a black belt. That's not a black belt, blah, blah, blah. Right. That that's that's the more that's the more advanced, aggressive, angry, you know, it goes from rah rah rah to it's is this this response. Black belt is a beginning. Black belt is not an ending, it's a beginning. Black belt is the first step.
Black belt is when you've learned the basics, right? There are a lot of responses that people have that suggest that notion.
Andrew Adams (13:57.876)
Mm-hmm. And what kills me is that, again, martial artists who train understand that when you get to Black Belt, there's you've now like that's just a level and then you continue on, and that Black Belt for a lot of us is the beginning for learning the more advanced stuff. The non martial artists they see black belt as different, but Black Belt's commenting on other black belts saying
you know, that that's too basic. Well, he's just beginning. Maybe he got his black belt yesterday. Like we don't know. You know, he's still working on things and he is a black belt in his or her school.
Jeremy (14:40.206)
Right. We've done a few other episodes over the years that the audience might want to check out. we're not done yet, but just I'll throw these in here. Episode sixty-one was on martial arts belts and rank. Six fifty-seven was on how rank systems aren't equivalent, and four hundred twenty-three, when do you deserve a black?
Andrew Adams (14:52.915)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (15:01.395)
Mm, yeah.
Jeremy (15:05.452)
This this idea that a black that black belt is a is a beginning. I would say a beginning, not the beginning. Because you you said something that I I think sometimes people will will draw too far too fine a boundary on it. I take issue with that. Black belt is the beginning.
Andrew Adams (15:12.467)
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (15:22.589)
Mm, mm.
Jeremy (15:24.467)
it's always a beginning. Well, black belt is is when you're ready to move on to the next things. Well i is it that every rank?
Andrew Adams (15:25.768)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (15:31.079)
Yeah. Fair. Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy (15:32.834)
Right. This
We have done such a disservice by looking at rank as anything other than a demarcation of education. That's all it is. It draws lines in the sand to help you understand your movement as a martial artist. I and this is this for a long time was always my go to.
Andrew Adams (15:50.557)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (16:06.894)
I would and and people have pushed back a little bit.
If you and I are comparing our educational history and you know, both of us earned bachelor's degree, four year degree from a university in the US, you know, I I went to, you know, University of Vermont and you went to University of New Hampshire.
Jeremy (16:30.632)
Nobody listening to that on the side is gonna follow up with, well, you know, UNH is a better school, so you know, the Jeremy's degree doesn't matter. Maybe some people make that argument if I went to University of Vermont and you went to Harvard. There's a reason people will pay more money and work harder to get into Harvard versus UVM.
But for the most part, no one's telling me my degree is irrelevant because it's not to the same standards as your degree.
Andrew Adams (17:03.793)
Mm-hmm. But they're definitely different. Like even if we study the same you know, get get a degree in the same thing, your education is going to be different from mine at UNH.
Jeremy (17:16.654)
Right. And w let's let's take two schools that are, you know, not Harvard and community college of over there. Right schools that you know are generally seen as in the same wide ballpark, right? So we're not talking about
Andrew Adams (17:26.185)
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy (17:40.535)
a school that prides itself on, you know, we we we we we we give black belts in, you know, t fifteen years and comparing it to a school that says, hey, you know, if if you come to every class, you could earn a black belt in a year. Let's not do those outliers, because very few schools fall into those buckets. If we have two different schools, you know, maybe your Shore and Rue School now and you know, the Shotokan school that I I trained at years ago.
Andrew Adams (17:55.706)
And
Jeremy (18:12.63)
We're not looking side by side and saying
Jeremy (18:18.412)
This is and this isn't on a broad scale. It is only when we compare a very specific thing. It is, I'll do a form and you can do a forum. Let's spar, let's do our basics. People take this one very specific thing that they've watched and they've applied that to the entirety of that person's skill, curriculum, training.
Goals, etc. And that is not only inappropriate, it is irresponsible and ignores the absolute best parts of traditional martial arts.
Andrew Adams (18:49.747)
Is it?
Andrew Adams (19:00.051)
Mm, that's a really good point. Yeah. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I I would concur.
Jeremy (19:07.382)
Yeah. Because there's individualization and there should be. Right? So we take a look at your school and my school, and if we go back to the the instructor examples, right? You're even if we're in the same association, you're focused on kicks, I'm focused on stances, right? If we take those if I'm focused on stances and you're watching me do something that
Andrew Adams (19:29.672)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jeremy (19:37.806)
well here's one I see. I'm doing it shot a con, so I'll use the term, I'm doing a kata with a really deep stances. And because of that, my kicks aren't great. Because if I'm in a really low stance, it's a little harder to kick high.
You're watching it, you're watching it for kicks, and you're going, Man, I would have expected more of Jeremy because he's this rank.
Andrew Adams (20:04.211)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (20:08.477)
Yeah, I he's a superfoot black belt, so I would expect much better kick.
Jeremy (20:11.148)
Right. Right. Th there is significant damage when we treat the rank as proof of anything outside the school.
Andrew Adams (20:13.745)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (20:25.799)
Yeah, and the problem is not rank, the problem is what people imagine rank means.
Jeremy (20:33.498)
We we have said many, many times on this show, we will continue to say it. If you, as a martial arts instructor or school owner, treat black belt as a different rank, if it is in a different class, I don't mean like, black belts are at seven o'clock. No, I mean it is a different category. You are doing your students a disservice because it sets them up.
Because remember they don't they're not black belts, so they don't know. So you treat them differently. So they have these expectations and you're not in their head. So you don't know
what's going on. And you can talk to them all you want, but martial arts is is really difficult to understand until you've developed the skill, until you have that understanding. It's a it's really is based on faith. They show up believing that you will help them get better. But when we have black belts categorically different, it reinforces all of these problems that we're talking about. And it needs to come from within the industry. We need to stop
Acting like Black Belt is a magic anything.
Andrew Adams (21:51.56)
Yeah.
Jeremy (21:51.636)
It's just another belt.
Andrew Adams (21:54.192)
Exactly. And and goes back to what we mentioned earlier, that black belt is not an ending, you know, and and when you
When you treat it as an ending as well, that's where people start to that's one of the reasons that I I think that we lose so many martial artists once they get black belt.
Jeremy (22:17.24)
We we have this reductionist attitude towards most things in Western culture at this point. We want things to be clearly defined, we want check boxes. And since the majority of Western culture, both in and out of martial arts, identifies black belt as th they're all pretty much equivalent, right? A black belt is a black belt, a first degree black belt, and a fifth degree black belt.
Most of the public doesn't know what that means, they don't care.
The question I I I get asked.
What is your rank? Or are you a black belt? If someone asks me what degree or what don or how many stripes or whatever, now I know that they know something. But that is a rare question. I assume you get the same thing.
Andrew Adams (22:57.225)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (23:04.539)
Exactly.
absolutely. Actually this happened actually just a few months ago. I was talking with someone and and mentioned that I trained martial arts and she said, do you have do you have a black belt? And I was like, Yeah, I actually have have a couple of black belts. She said, what what what what rank you know, she said, what styles? And that's like, Well, that's another question that, you know, most people don't understand that there's lots of different styles to to martial arts.
And then I mentioned and she said, well, you know, what what level black belt? So she knew something.
Jeremy (23:44.428)
And so that that's that's an educated person, right? That person has understanding of some of the the nuance of what we do. But when we draw that line
It just makes people quit sooner. When you when you show when you tell them this is the standard, when you put on your wall, we are a black belt school, when you put in your school's name, black belt school, black belt academy, black belt whatever, I'm not saying you can't, but I am saying you shouldn't, because you are psychologically conditioning your students that once they have reached that standard, there's less to do.
Andrew Adams (24:25.085)
Yeah. Yeah, I I know I've talked about this in other episodes. It's one of the reasons why with my students at the karate club at King State, I don't I don't use the word black belt. I use the word shoun because we're Okinawan Japanese style, so Shodan i w is the appropriate term for a first degree black belt. And it leads to the question of Shodan, what does that mean? And that
leads to a discussion on well it's the first level and there's also ni don, which is the second level, which they understand from count learning to count in Japanese, that ni means two, then they learn sandon. So they right away are conditioned that black belt is not the end. They don't get a black belt, they get a shodon.
Jeremy (25:12.91)
So it's it's it's a more detailed explanation which prevents grouping all black belts together. Black belts over here becomes all right, shodons and nidons and sondons come over here. Makes sense.
Andrew Adams (25:27.761)
Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. It's I mean it's not an issue for our school because you know, Russ and I are the only the only black belt center there. But but it it I think it's a good thing to keep in mind if you have a school with lots of students that you know, just getting rid of the word black belt and using the word showdown or whatever term is appropriate for your school, it just helps to give a little bit of explanation as to black belt is not the end.
Jeremy (25:56.387)
Now, I I don't think either of us are naive enough to believe that we're going to overnight, maybe ever, change the way that the public sees ranking within martial arts. But that doesn't mean that you, the audience, can't disengage from these ridiculous arguments. Because there are
Andrew Adams (26:07.464)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (26:20.46)
I I ha I have this I have this worldview that if I Andrew, if I came up to you on the street, if you'd never met me before and I said, What color is the sky? And you said
And I said, You are an idiot. The sky is green. What are you likely to respond with?
Andrew Adams (26:40.551)
Okay.
Jeremy (26:42.082)
And you're pr yeah, you're okay and you're gonna walk away. But if I come up to you and I say, You are a terrible martial artist and you do not deserve your rank
Jeremy (26:55.316)
Most of us have at least some little bit of anxiety.
And we're afraid that that person is right. So we have to defend ourselves. And what I want you to do, audience, if you truly believe that you deserve the rank that you have, and I hope you do, because 95 99% of you do. There are times when someone in their own school
Andrew Adams (27:05.193)
Hm.
Yeah. Yep.
Jeremy (27:29.28)
ends up with rank, you know, high or low, that by that school's own systems are are, you know, they're out of place. This isn't my judgment, this is your rank, your school, your context. If you believe, if you know that you deserve to be where you are, treat these comments as the sky is green. Because that is what they are. It does not matter. Instead of spending the time trying to defend
Andrew Adams (27:54.505)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (27:58.263)
your rank and your skill to someone else who doesn't care. They just want to complain. They're just being a troll and you're feeding them. It does not make the world better. It makes your life worse. Go spend the time doing just about anything else. And if you need something specific, the next time you find yourself arguing with people about martial arts rank on the internet, I want you to take whatever device you're on and I want you to go up to the search bar.
Andrew Adams (28:16.624)
Amen.
Jeremy (28:27.244)
And I want you to type in cute, your choice, puppy or kitty, or seal videos. Go look at cute animal videos, take a breath, it's not that serious, and they are wrong. You deserve to be where you are.
Andrew Adams (28:33.789)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (28:46.248)
Amen.
Yeah, that was good.
Jeremy (28:49.366)
All right. Yeah, man. Thanks. I always appreciate when we get to have these discussions because I know that even though you and I are are aligned on
ninety nine percent of l let's say the big thoughts, sometimes we get there in different ways. And just being able to talk it out helps me understand my own thoughts. Right. This is the process that this is what I love about podcasts, because I I I watch and listen to podcasts that are not martial arts related. And just hearing two people go back and forth helps me understand what I think.
And I hope that that is the case for the audience.
Andrew Adams (29:28.989)
Yeah, it helped Yeah, yeah. And me too. It helps helps put it all together in a nice, concise thought.
Jeremy (29:36.536)
Yeah. Awesome. Well, to all of you out there, thanks for hanging around. Thanks for spending some time with us. If you like what we do, well, sign up for the newsletter. That's number one. Whistlekickmartialarts radio.com. Sign up for the newsletter. While you're over there, we do transcripts and links and all kinds of good stuff for all the episodes. So if you said, Hey, you know, what other episodes can I check out? Well, there are eleven hundred and something of them. You know, to go back to episode sixty-one, that was our second year.
We are in our eleventh. We have started our eleventh year. It's kinda wild.
Actually wait, 61. No, that was year one. That was year one. That was ten years ago, almost ten years ago. And a lot has changed and most of it hasn't. We're just better at doing what we do.
Andrew Adams (30:29.853)
Or at least we hope so.
Jeremy (30:31.51)
We hope so. If you have a topic or a guest suggestion, let us know. Andrew at Jeremy at whistlekick.com. Whistlekick.com for our products, our events, all the other good stuff. And again, episode 61, martial arts belts in rank 657. Rank systems aren't equivalent and 423. When do you deserve a black belt? Thanks for spending some time with us today, and until next time, train hard.
Andrew Adams (30:57.693)
Smile.
Jeremy (30:59.128)
Have a great day.