Episode 563 - Fights are a Failure of Communication
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams talk about whether Learning Martial Arts History Beneficial to Training.
Fights are a Failure of Communication - Episode 563
Communication is what connects and binds us together, so whenever there's a breakdown in communication, a misunderstanding occurs that almost always leads to a fight not only in bars but especially in relationships. In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams talk about why Fights are a Failure of Communication and how can we all avoid to be in this kind of situations.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good morning. Well, maybe afternoon, evening, whatever. You're listening to it. Welcome everybody! This is a whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 563 and today, Andrew and I are talking about how fights are actually a failure of communication. What does that mean? We will, we're going to get into it and stick around but first, I am Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host for the show. Co-host for the show, I guess I should point out that Andrew is also part of the show and I'm realizing that in the video, I'm blocking him out and there we go now. Now, we've got him. So, if you want to see the video version of this episode, you can go to YouTube. You can find it over there. You can find all the episodes that we do on YouTube. At least look at martialartsradio.com. They're all over the place but if you want to see everything that we're doing beyond all the projects, the products that we make, everything that we're doing to support you, the traditional martial artist, go to whistlekick.com to find a bunch of stuff over there. If you find something like in the store, use code PODCAST 15 and get 15% off. Let us know. Hey, that was a podcast listener to make that purchase and help us justify the money and the time that we put into the show. All right. What else is in my list? We've got paper. This is the downside of the video; you see me do all this stuff. We bring you 2 episodes a week and if you like, if you think they're worthwhile, if they're worth your time, if you're watching or listening, you probably are, you've got some ways you can support us. Like I said, you could buy some at the store. You could also share an episode to somebody, you could follow us on social media, share that stuff around, you can buy a book, you can leave a review or you could help out with the Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick and guess what? If you support us on Patreon, we're going to give you more stuff. Just like today, I uploaded another chapter of the book I'm working on for the people at a certain tier of like. There's a bunch of stuff going on. We're just throwing more and more to Patreon. I've got other things that are going to put up this week because hey, if you're going to contribute, we're going to give you back even more. It's all about value exchange and I was talking about the episode. Suit the subject here and I don't remember where it came from but it was something I said or wrote or thought about it up. So weird where did the impetus for this arise.
Andrew Adams:
I'm not sure you would send me some. Just some thoughts on communication and you know that I think the court was a fight occurs when communication breaks down and that was it. I mean just that was kind of the lead in like “all that's an interesting thing to think about and talk about”.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, and I think it's true. I think it's true in almost every case and actually you viewers or listeners, whatever you are. Andrew and I are talking about whether or not it should be all fights are the result of a failure communication or is it just most. I don't think I can make a case for all but instead of being absolutist about this, will be a little more, will be a little softer about it and say that in general if ever I breakdown in communication. Now, when I sent you that, I think you would have said “I really like that. What was it about?". The gist of the idea that you thought would make a good episode.
Andrew Adams:
Well as you know, Jeremy, my wife likes to say that I'm a fan of OCC which is the Open Clear Communication. And so, thinking about why do fights occur? and could they be resolved if there had been a discussion ahead of time or work resolving some sort of issue, could that be done through communication? And I would make the argument that in most cases you probably tell.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know what I think about the quintessential examples of fights? You know when fights occur it's somebody's upset at somebody else.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Most of the time when somebody's upset it's because there was a communication breakdown. Most people aren't bad people, most people are trying to be good, they're trying to do the right thing. And usually, when someone takes a negative action, you know some kind of destructive action directed towards someone else, it's because they feel like that person is wrong. Right? I don't hear too many stories where people say you know I just decided to be a jerk. You know, they felt entitled for some reason or they felt like they were reciprocating on something. There's something that happens where they say you know this is the next logical step. So, the fight becomes the logical step after a series of communication breakdowns.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think this occurs in literal fights. You know, I punch you, you punch me. Hopefully, you try to punch me, I block it and then I punch you. Never done that, that's how a fight goes. I don’t mean it personally and I just mean in general. But you know we use the word fight to describe an argument as well. And I had the same back when I had my last company. We have the IT company, that all problems are the result of a communication breakdown. When I thought about every time something went wrong with the client, it was because there was some communication failure. They wanted something that we didn't deliver because we missed. Right? They thought they were being clear. Nobody ever says, I want you to do this and intentionally says it in a big way. Right. They think they have open and clear communication. But then what you receive is different from what they said. What you hear or what you interpret is different in what they said. And so, we wait to deliver something, maybe we resolve the problem or make a change to their website or computer. Whatever it was and this was what I asked for. Yes, it is and now there's an argument. Exactly. And this is where I spent a tremendous amount of time, running that organization focused on communication. For those of you saying, you're really off and weird. Don't worry. It's going to come back; we're going to pull it back. We had a lot of forms. We had this joke in the office that every form, there was the result of a problem that arose and customers would just get so confused. You know why you have to fill out all this paperwork to do this thing, to trade in my computer, whatever it was. Well, because there was a problem prior. You could buy a car. How many pieces of paper you fill when you buy a house, how many pieces of paper you fill up. Every single one of those used to enforce clear communication so you have no choice but to communicate clearly. Now, if you don't read it and you don't know what it says, that's a whole different issue but at least all sides are agreeing on what's happening. There is paperwork that's involved. Have you ever been in a situation where professional communication went awry and people got mad?
Andrew Adams:
I think anybody who's worked any time in the workplace would be able to agree. Yes, absolutely. That happens all the time and 9 times out of 10, if you could just take a step back and figure out what the actual issue was. What is it you don't understand like if a boss came to me or a supervisor came to me and said they want to get this done but I don't truly understand it but I say okay great and then I go away not fully understanding what they actually wanted then I do the job and I do it incorrectly because I didn't understand exactly what they wanted? There was definitely a communication problem there and that is now going to cause friction because my supervisor's going to say that's not what I wanted but I wasn't able to stand up and say “I don't understand, can you communicate to me better exactly what you need?”
Jeremy Lesniak:
This is why people underestimate the importance of communication. And it's something that when I think about what goes on in the martial arts schools, I've been part of. Communication is not something that's ever been a priority. And it was not explicitly. I've never heard an instructor say “you know what if you're looking to coexist well with people and avoid fights, you want to make sure you have clear communication. you want to make sure that you're being understandable as to what you said.” Because look at the scene of that, why did we develop language? Because we needed to express ideas and the better you are expressing ideas the better everything else goes in your life.
You know if you look at the people at the top of whatever industry, they may not be the absolute best at communicating, not bad at all. There's a certain standard you have to reach in terms of communication in order to keep things moving on track. When you speak, when I speak. Yeah, we actually just have something on Friday. Where I said you know let's make sure that moving forward, we do this for better communication. So, when we record these episodes, they're better, right? Even though you know, we're friends, we've had plenty of time communicating and yet we're still looking at how to improve that communication because it's the root of everything that we're doing.
Andrew Adams:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, what I think about fights that have gone wrong or did exist because the fight is at least the premise of this episode, if fight is communication gone wrong. I think about the different circumstances under which there is a fight. You know somebody bumps into somebody in a bar, right? That's about as cliche as we get in our martial arts world and in talking about scenarios. You know we talk about bar fights a lot because they are probably the best example of something going 0 to 60. You know what’s happening, right? Out of nowhere because alcohol is involved and yet I know about you. I've managed to avoid every bar fight that's ever started to pop up around me and it's been with communication.
Andrew Adams:
Yep, I mean I can say with pride that I've never really been in a fight and I generally take pride in that like there are some martial arts instructors that I have heard of I don't know them personally, but they're like “Well, I've been in tons of fights and I always win and that's why I'm really good instructor because you know my martial arts is really good.”. It's like well, I think you lost. The minute you get into a fight, it's a bad thing. I mean I was in fights when I was... I was in some fights and scuffles when I was in high school but you know prior, really prior, to me being in martial arts. You know since seriously training. I've never really been in a fight and I think that's what should.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think that’s the victory, you know I've had people ask me, you know “can you teach me to fight or teach me how to protect myself?” And I said you know I can. I'm not the best at it when I can teach you very well how to not get into a fight. Because that's something that I can say. I've managed to do it now. Let's remember I'm short, I'm nerdy. Didn’t have a lot of friends growing up and got picked on constantly. And I can remember. I mean if I sat down and really thought about it, I could probably come up with dozens of situations that I managed to get myself out of. Talk myself out of, to walk away from. And I never let anyone get out. Never let them get away with it and it's something I'm really proud of. It is something I think I wrote down in the notes that I sent you. I think that the only way to win a fight is to avoid it because if you and I, if we have some communication breakdown and it turns physical, only one of us can win.
Andrew Adams:
Well and you could make the argument that no one wins because let's say we do get into a fight and I'm not going to say who's going to win. One of us knocks you out. None of us, one of us knocks the other one out. Well, the one that got knocked out could theoretically press charges. And maybe they got hurt really bad and they pressed charges and that person, the other person ends up spending some time in jail, did you really win? That would make the argument, no, you didn't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know just to go down that road a moment. People like to make a big deal about loss. Well, you know that the law would be on your side sure but you can sue someone without cause. I could sue you right now for anything. The judge will probably dismiss it if it doesn't have grounds. But if I hire some lawyers, you're probably going to need to hire a lawyer and now we're both out money. So, nobody loses their right. It almost doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it almost doesn't matter. What the root causes, right. It's something that happens and we're not on the same page and we've resorted to physical violence because that's all that's left.
Andrew Adams:
Yep. And then it leads greatly... It leads into a great discussion which maybe will be for another episode but in my opinion one of the most under taught skills in the dojo or doe Jiang or any school on how to avoid a fight, is how to deescalate the situation. Which is not done with your fists. You know, deescalating is completely done with body language and with your voice and learning how to do that. We talked a second ago about bar fights, right? That's I don't, I'm not going to go so far as to say most fights happen in bars but it just. [00:13:55-00:13:57] The fact that alcohol is involved that slows people's reaction times and they're quicker to make judgments and you know, and if you can learn how to use body language to deescalate the situation and show that you're not threatening, maybe your hands are open and in front of you. You know, not asking... You know not asking simple yes, no questions like hey, you know if someone's coming at you ask them questions like open ended questions like what can I do to resolve this? Like you know what? What's the problem? You know what we figure out with the open hands, palm up like Hey I'm really sorry. You know, things like that are rarely taught in martial arts schools and that sort of thing that can help you get out of sticky situations.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think it's important to point out one of the things that is critical in any kind of de-escalation is having enough confidence and intact ego, humility. Right? If you bump into me, you know at a bar, you know I spilled my drink and now there's beer down the front of my shirts. I can look at that in 2 ways: oh men, I lost some beer or this man has assaulted me caused me to lose a certain value in something that I've paid for. And he needs to provide restitution and if he's not willing to do that then I'm going to take a pound of flesh. Right? Like that's really… Those are the 2 sides of that. Now, if my ego is intact, if I'm willing to say, you know what, this happens, this person did not single me out. And say you know I'm going to go bump into you which wasn't involved but that was literally one of the things that could have become a fight that I just let go. I was in high school and I just chalked it up to it being an accident. It was not intentional because communication is more than words. Communication is physical. Body language, right? The body language, physical communication, your communication in that scenario was not, I am going to intentionally grasp on Jeremy and bump him and make his life sad by spilling some of his drink. That wasn't the intent. And so, reading that, understanding that communication, the intent behind it becomes critical. So, do we have anything to pile onto this problem before we start talking about the solutions?
Andrew Adams:
No, I mean I think it's just a matter of thinking scenarios. Where, what happened? Let's see, I'm at a restaurant or bar with my wife and if the phone rings and I need to take the call and I go outside, I'm on the phone and Joe Schmo walks in, sees a very attractive woman, sitting at the bar all alone. They walk up and start hitting on her because they don't necessarily know that she's married and her husbands out back there. I mean you make the argument that she would theoretically be wearing a ring but let's say, my girlfriend, right? So, then I walk in the bar, done with my phone call, see this guy hitting on my wife, well, I'm going to beat him up. Well, the communication would be the gentlemen like, I didn't know what I meant. I'm sorry like if there had been some communication, you could work that out.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Or what if you didn't know. What if you knew because unfortunately, not everyone is faithful? You could take it as a compliment. Yeah, if your ego is intact and you have a strong relationship then that person hitting on your partner or spouse, you know the person you're interested in or on a date with. It is a compliment to your taste.
Andrew Adams:
Yep, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's how I've always taken it, maybe not always. That's how I try to take it, if I find out when she gets hit on, one of 2 things happen. She gives that person attention that is inappropriate for the fact that we're out there together and I know Hey I'm done spending time with her or…
Andrew Adams:
And then there’s need to be a communication between the 2 of you or…
Jeremy Lesniak:
She... you know, pushes the guy off and says Hey, I'm good and I have that much more trust in her which is important in communication. That is related and I don't need to worry about it. So, how do we put it within the martial arts context? Because we've been kind of loose with what we're defining as martial arts. As we've been talking about communication today within that realm. You know let's say within a school, how do we teach communication? Such that we can reduce the chances of getting into a fight.
Andrew Adams:
That's a very good question. Because it's a very difficult thing to teach. In a classroom setting, you know how to avoid a fight, you know which is ultimately I think that’s how you win. Right? I mean cortical wind is to not get in the fight. Also, you know teaching that, you know there are some ways to help avoid it. I think confidence makes it a little easier. You know, having the self-confidence to recognize where things are at and where you are at. I think it can help quite a bit. And I think just being in martial arts helps that to a certain degree. For sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think that we're talking about communication in 2 ways. We're talking about de-escalation where you used earlier and we've done an episode on that. How to avoid fights or something like that. It goes way back. It includes you know; I think you can, I give you my, I think we reference this in a recent episode. I think it's like a 5-stage de-escalation protocol that you know, being humble, being funny, being gross, being crazy, you know. I forget the fifth one maybe it was only four I don't know. Those tragedies are out there. I'm not the first one to develop those plenty of people know those, you know, the idea of, you know, just off the right off the cuff. You know, somebody wants to fight, you know just start picking your nose. It's gross and weird and it's probably going to make people go. I'm out, this is not what I signed up for. There's also the verbal side. And there I think the best way is to run people through somewhere else. People are always good at developing their own strategies. That's why they come to martial arts. If they were, you could say, all right, you've got 2 hands and 2 feet and elbows and knees and a forehead and go figure out how did you cry. Well, that's not how it works. Learn martial arts, they mimic what we show them. So, the same could apply to communication as it relates to de-escalation and avoiding fights running through scenarios. Getting people to act out. If I would be guaranteed for most people. If we get a scenario going and we have a mark set up. This could be a very reasonable scenario: you can run an adult class. You know, pretend we're at the bar. You know, line up some chairs and I walk up to you. And I started speaking to you aggressively and I showed you. It doesn't matter how good of friends we are, how much time we've had training. There's going to be some element of you, it's going to come up, you're going to have some adrenaline come up because there's a primal aspect to the tone of my voice and the physical touch. It's going to make you on some level. One to respond, now, if it's minor, you don't respond. But to start putting those out and realize hey, we can model this behavior. We can demonstrate examples. We give people tools. I think it's incredibly valuable in something that should be happening more.
Andrew Adams:
Absolutely and you'll never hit every single reason why a fight may occur but getting the mind, the gears turning and running through a handful of scenarios and just thinking about what you might be able to do. You know, I mean one of the things we talked about, we wrote down in our notes as well, was you know it's a joke of how to avoid a fight, would be to show a move like showing some sort of movement and walking away. You know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yes. Here's my best move. I'm going to turn it; I'm going to walk away. Exactly it's important for those of you who own schools who are seen as positive role models in aspects of the community, etc. I want you to recognize that the messaging on this in the media is actually shifting the other way. We're seeing more and more media attention given to celebrities attempting to handle their differences via violence. And the best example I can give to show you how this is starting to go wrong is just a couple weeks ago. And you know we don't, you usually date these episodes. We're recording it on 12/8/2020. There was an exhibition match between Mike Tyson and Roy Jones but in the undercard, there was a YouTube celebrity and a retired NBA player who went at it. Okay and why did the old really do this because it made both of the money okay. But you know what came out of that YouTube? Celebrity Logan Paul now has a fight scheduled with Floyd Mayweather because he was talking some smack. Now, we are good. Alternately this comes down to they're both going to make some money. Great. What is this messaging that is being put forth in the media? The challenge was issued. Egotistical position was put forward that was honored by the media. It was seen as worthwhile enough that it became a big news story and then Floyd Mayweather accepted the fight. Snoop Dogg is starting his own boxing promotion. We're going to see more and more of this because Joe Blow does bring in the views. Celebrities do. So, what? Yep, a lot of us are going to start seeing especially, children. Is the way you settle differences with fighting. The UFC, unfortunately has been leading into this. And because those are real fights and not to take anything away from professional wrestling but most of us know that the story lies the physicality is amazing. Story lines are fabricated most of the time. There are some elements of truth that sometimes string through that the writers will lean into I know a little bit about that industry. But if you're not careful. If we are not careful, we're going to see more and more fighting on television online. And we're going to see validating the exact opposite of what we're talking about here today. And if you are in a position to push back against that by teaching de-escalation, by teaching these strategies. These techniques discussed the importance of communication. Your position helps.
Andrew Adams:
Yep, and I think a lot of it stems from a willingness to… they are not willingness. I want to seem tough, right. I'm a tough man but you know what, the willingness to not seem tough that gets away easier with age. It absolutely does.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think we have something in the notes there. Yeah, and I just want to kind of tie this up. We talk about the only way you would fight is to avoid it. And if you resist that idea, what do you think about something if you hear about someone that's been in a bunch of fights? Do you not automatically think that there's something wrong with that person? I think we all do. If you are constantly getting into fights for frequently getting into fights, there are some aspects of that person's personality that we tend to think there's something missing. What is it about them that they commit this to happen? So, there's proof.
Andrew Adams:
No, I think that's great.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, that's where we are with that. If you want more on this, if you want to give some feedback, we'd love to hear and email me at jeremy@whistlekick.com. If you want to check out the episode at whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. We've got transcripts, we got links. I already put a date on this. So, all see this again. Yes, we've had some problems with the website. Yes, we're working through them. In fact, we took a big step forward just before we recorded. Talking with Andrew about it. We should be good to go. In fact, maybe by the time you check out this episode. But If you're watching or listening to this, that website should be fixed. Knock on wood. I got some. My desk is compressed of wood and will knock on that. Andrew [00:27:54-00:27:55]. If you want to help support the show and our mission here in whistlekick is to connect, educate, entertain traditional martial arts throughout the world. You can make a purchase, you could share an episode, you can support the patriarch by a book, leave a review. We got a ton of ways; you can do that. Our social media at whistlekick. And I think that's it for today. So, Andrew, let's send them out togeth