Episode 682 - Mr. Andy Allen
Mr. Andy Allen is a Martial Arts practitioner and instructor at the Nova Karate Jutsu in Bedford, Canada.
When I was 25, I was decent with what I was doing but I didn’t know what else was out there. So, if I could go back and talk to my young self I’d say look, here’s what you can do with Karate. Here’s a whole world of grappling arts that you’re missing out on. Keep doing what you’re doing but supplement that…
Mr. Andy Allen - Episode 682
Mr. Andy Allen, a high school teacher, did weightlifting as a young man influenced mainly by his father who’s a champion weightlifter in Canada. Eventually, the lack of gym and access to weightlifting in college, Mr. Andy Allen found Karate. Through the years, Mr. Andy Allen competed in a lot of tournaments in and out of Canada. Presently, he teaches martial arts in local schools and is the instructor at the Nova Karate Jutsu in Bedford, Canada.
In this episode, Mr. Andy Allen talks about how he started his journey into martial arts, what his regrets are, and teaching practical application of Martial Arts. Listen and join the conversation!
Show Notes
You may check out Mr. Andy Allen’s school at NovaKarate.ca or follow him on Instagram at @appliedshotokan
Subscribe on Mr. Andy Allen’s YouTube Channel here
In this episode, we mentioned how Iain Abernathy inspired Mr. Allen in creating his YouTube Channel
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hello, and welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Episode 680. With today's guest, Andy Allen, I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host for the show founder here at whistlekick where everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. If you want to know more about what we're doing, go to whistlekick.com that's our online home. And one of the things you'll find there is our store. And if you find something in the store that you liked, make sure you use the code PODCAST15, get yourself 15% off. And let us know that this show has an impact on you. If you're willing to part with a few bucks, it says something about what we're doing as its own website, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. We're bringing you two episodes each and every week. And the goal of the show and really whistlekick overall, is to connect, educate and entertain traditional martial artists throughout the world. If you want to show your appreciation for what we do, you can do a number of things you could make a purchase, like I mentioned before, you could share this or an episode with maybe somebody you trained with. Or you could join our Patreon. If you think the new shows are worth 63 cents apiece, you could support us at five bucks a month. And actually you can go as low as $2 A month patreon.com/whistlekick, and you're gonna get access to exclusive content in certain tiers. You get merch, like shirts, and whatever. It's just, it's a pretty valuable program. And I'm making that statement based on the fact people rarely leave. So go check it out.
And actually, if you want the full list of all the things you can do to support whistlekick and our mission, as well as a constantly shifting mix of just, we'll just categorize it as fun stuff. Whistlekick.com/family. If you're someone who spends time on YouTube, looking at martial arts videos, or if you're someone who enjoys the practical application of martial arts, there's a good chance that you know, today's guest, Andy Allen's carved out a name for himself in this practical world. And I had the pleasure today to get to talk to him. He's a great guy, and we talk about not only how he started and things that you might expect, but what prompted a fairly sizable shift and the direction of his martial arts practice. Instead of me, spoiling it or trying to summarize it. I'd rather let you hear the words from the man himself. So, here's my conversation with Mr. Andy Allen.
Andy Allen:
Hey, Andy, how are you? Hey, Jeremy, how are you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm doing well. Thank you. So, what's going on?
Andy Allen:
Living the dream? Yeah, I can relate. Yeah. Well, I'm a high school teacher. And we're doing it online for at least this week. And the rationale was to give schools a chance to, for maintenance people, a chance to put [00:03:26-00:03:27] in all the schools. That should be there waiting two years and to do that, but here we are.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No comments.
Andy Allen:
And no comments. Okay. You're in Vermont, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I am. I am. You're up north, aren't you? Where are you? Which province?
Andy Allen:
Nova Scotia.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. That's north. north to east.
Andy Allen:
Yeah. Well, it's across the Gulf from Maine. Yeah. Not that far as the crow flies. I don't know if I've ever been to Vermont. They went a long time ago when I was a teenager. For a weightlifting competition of all things. Oh, interesting. I used to do that. In my youth. My father was Canadian champion, back in the 60s. And he kind of tricked me into joining us. It was interesting that he was pressured to do things but he just brought home a barbell one time in the basement with some weights and just left it there. And of course, I was probably around 11 or 12 this time. I look to see what's going on. And I had seen pictures of him weightlifting and he was at the time coaching a guy who eventually won a medal at the Pan American Games. And that's why go watch them work out. And so I was just doing what I thought I was supposed to do and making it a message of course. Didn't say anything. Let me do my thing trying to impress my friends. And then eventually he started showing me some things and let me kind of chew on that for a while. Yeah. Just after a while I did start trading nice. I never was any good at it because my body is too long and all lean legs, which is great for kicking.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, not good when you're moving that weight overhead though.
Andy Allen:
No. So, we have an American equivalent. We have this thing for us. Amateur Sport Canada games. So, I think the age is up to 21. And basically each province where you go States sends a team off in different sports and each province will take a turn host every four years. It's like a mini Olympics nothing. So, I came second last at the games. I went to the Canada Junior cup in, let's say somewhere in the 80s. And I think I came second last there as well. So my sensational technique was very well coached. But absolutely no raw strength.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've got a bit of experience with weightlifting, you know, when most people use the term weightlifting, they're not talking about weightlifting. So, as you were talking, I had to shift parts of my brain as to what it was you were talking about. I find a lot of synergy with martial arts, because it's such a technical movement, and there's so much detail in there. But it takes a special kind of person to succeed in that sport.
Andy Allen:
Yeah, and it is very technical, like the Olympic style way that I'm talking about, not with a turtle known as a powerlifter, so powerlifters would do bench press squats. And also the advantage deadlift, deadlift, we would do snatch and clean jab is much more of a dynamic explosive kind of. Absolutely. deadlift, you just need guerrilla strength. There's [00:07:22-00:07:24], but the Olympic lifting is very, very technical and that's the only way I was even remotely competitive at the provincial level was because I had great technique and great hip and ankle flexibility and pulled the bar up as high as I could, which wasn't very high. That drop underneath it with my butt two inches from the floor. But yeah, I just like my legs are too long. No leverage there. But no, I did it for quite a while. It's fun. And then I quit when I went. I was going off to university, and there was no place to train in the city. And that's when I discovered karate in my first year at Dalhousie University, Halifax, Nova Scotia.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Interesting. You may be the first person we've had on the show who has that story, you know, plenty, plenty of sports, you know, if we consider weightlifting sport, in that general sense. Not an uncommon story. But I've got I mean, we probably have dozens of people who have gone the other direction, you know, started martial arts and found some synergy with weightlifting, especially the power generation aspect and pulling that back to improve their game, so to speak.
Andy Allen:
Yeah, I have a place in my backyard like two, three years ago, two years ago, I built this shed, I called it a shed. It's a good size, though, and I made it really pretty. I call it the karate cabin. Now. It's 16 by 20. It was originally supposed to be a storage shed for the lawn tractor and snowblower, that kind of stuff, right? But then COVID 2020 hit and I'm home. I have a credit course I teach in high school. In martial arts, I needed a place to teach from and so I turned the shed into a dojo. Maybe it wasn't insulated at times. It is a bit chilly to dress warmly. But it's now insulated. I just have mats out there that have a quarter inch rubber mat down and then 40 mess on top of it. So it's actually pretty nice. I just need to put something on the walls to cover up the insulation, but I go there with some weights when there is some dumbbell or barbell. So I have a bag out there and we'll keep that around for a while. lift some weights. So, just you know, as we get older, it's kind of like your muscle mass starts to deteriorate. So, I'm trying to prevent the inevitable.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. So, you know, you go to university, and you're not weightlifting because there's no gym, but I'm sure martial arts wasn't the only thing, karate wasn't the only thing available to you . What made you choose that?
Andy Allen:
Well, truthfully, just by fluke, so the big sports complex on campus, yes, the [00:10:06-00:10:08] was the, like the gym area at the time on campus. And so, I did my phys ed degree. And we did a lot of courses in the sports facility. And there's just a flier posted, because pre internet days, no websites and beginner credit classes. So, I saw the sign and my buddy who was in my class with me, he was playing some hockey, so we decided to go. Both went to first class like that. And he never went back again. He's just too busy with hockey. But I went back and just kind of immersed myself in it as much as I could. That was in January 1990, 32 years ago this month.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You remember why you liked it?
Andy Allen:
I don't know. It's funny, because in high school, I had this friend, and he was doing… shotokan karate that I was taking. And back in high school, my friend was taking a shotokan. And I would make fun of them, of course right. And then there was two years later, to the same stuff within the same organization. He was training. But I don't know, it was something totally different. I mean, I guess I like a lot of guys, I grew up watching some Bruce Lee stuff and Jackie Chan and Bloodsport, that kind of stuff. And I really just joined on a whim. But once I got in there I really found it interesting. So I didn't master everything, of course. But the instructors say you're doing really well to keep it up. So that was motivating. And it's just something I had never had any experience before. It was just fun to learn something new. And the learning at the time seemed endless. Like you think you got one thing figured out, or something else to learn. And of course, even now, at 31/32 years into training. I still haven't figured it all out. Not even close. never will. If I could describe myself right now, an aging martial artist with regrets.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, the aging part's obvious, because none of us are getting any younger. So, Mitch Hedberg jokes there. But the regrets tell me what you mean by that.
Andy Allen:
So, I did enjoy shorthand for a long, long time. And I learned a lot. I competed quite a bit at the provincial level at the national level even as a senior went to the worlds in 2016. But there's this culture, right. And I don't mean to be critical of any of my instructors, but just in general, in some of the big organizations like the one I belong to, there's this culture where you stay home, right? You stay within the walls of the organization, and you're not really encouraged to branch out and explore things. And so my understanding of martial arts or of karate, at least, was 3k Karate, and I know some people might not understand that term 3k so that stands for kata, kumite, kihon on Coumadin. So you're keen on your inner basic movements, kicks, punches, blocks, that sort of thing. And Kata of course, your forms are poomsae.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Poomsae….
Andy Allen:
Patterns, whatever, and your veins are firing. And mean there's many different kinds of fire and even in sort of candy, get your stuff sparring or semi free and you're freestyling. The regret part is regarding me not branching out and exploring other types of martial arts. Because this skill set that you learn in Shotokan is very, very narrow. I learned how to hit someone or at least score points from someone from half a mile away. Right as long range tournament style fighting, and like my sense they weren't big on tournaments these have a couple years. But when I was about 30, I wanted to get better and I sought out this local guy. His name's Mitch German. I can never remember the style of karate he took, he did it, she drew, he drew it's one or the other. But he was a world champion in his own right. really incredibly skilled guy. So he taught me footwork. And so he gave me another learning curve, if you will in the competitive part of karate. But in terms of close infighting, I knew absolutely nothing. I knew nothing about grappling. I just knew how to punch in.
Get from mid to long range but because of this culture where you don't suppose you go on exploring other martial arts. I just took that as the way it was nice stayed put, I stayed home if you will, just with a shotokan. And yes, that's my regret because so I've been kind of dabbling in jujitsu, off and on for the past three and a half years. A little bit of judo discovered that at the time when I was 45, it was way too old to get slammed to the earth. Yes, definitely a man's game. I had some good teachers, and they were a lot of fun. And I learned a lot in the short time that I was there. But I just had to tell [00:15:51-00:15:52] Golding was one of the senseis. And look, I I love the class, I love it. It's great vibe. I just can't do it. The throwing parts are fun, but I get out of my truck when I get home. I can't move. I can't walk upright anymore. So, I had to give it up. So it is to be an older person. At the time 45, who had been trained that same for 20 years, that's a different thing than someone learning that hurt at 45. Because eating you know, you make fewer mistakes, you just don't get thrown around as much if you're a black belt. Yeah, so yeah, I really wish I had branched out a long time ago.
And something now back in the early 90s, in Halifax, Taekwondo was getting big because it was shortly after the Seoul Olympics, I had no interest in that. Especially the Olympic style, just not something that was interested in Kempo karate, but for some reason they were the “bad guys”. You were supposed to go there. I think if I wanted to do judo, that would have been acceptable because it was Japanese. Jiu jitsu wasn't a thing because the UFC didn't come around to what ‘93? I think.
Jeremy Lesniak:
UFC one, I think was 92. It was 92 or 93. But, you know, it still took a long time for BJJ to spread.
Andy Allen:
Yeah, especially in my part of Canada, you know, smaller than the biggest cities, not that big and felt like Toronto or Montreal, but probably appeared much earlier. So, there weren't a lot of options. Anybody, even in the karate world, there's certain people that you were not supposed to go to. I can remember this. One Japanese master who I think has been living in Canada for a while, but he's in a clinic. And we were told to not go there. And I didn't know what I said, of course. And you agree to what you're told to do not to. And but that was the thing. You just kind of stay within your little bubble. I felt the shotokan bubble. But likewise, it could be a taekwondo bubble of the capital bubble. But I just still do some jiu jitsu. I love it. But progress is slow. When you're injured all the time. Right? I just took some time off my ribs or got beat up actually from taking a knee in the ribs. But then in jiu jitsu, someone's 210 pounds and rolling on it just doesn't feel good. No, it's just a small, not big, 100 pounds, 170 pounds. So when you get someone who's got 40 pounds on you, and the generator on top of me all the time. It just just just hurts. But it's and you know, when you're rolling with a young guy who's 25. You can tell them hey, just be careful. My ribs and my left elbow and my big toe. You go down the list of all the things to avoid. And they “okay, good, good, good”, but they don't really get it. What it feels like to be 50 plus years old. I understand that.
If they get hurt, you know they're good to go in a week. If I get hurt. I'm off for quite a while. But you know it is what it is. I go as much as I can. On top of teaching a couple of times a week. But the cool thing is even in the jiu jitsu club I go to now there's the stuff that we do if they hate, that's this kata and like if you look at it figure four positions with your legs, with your foot hooks behind the other knee, knee of your other leg. We have kata, shotokan [00:19:56-00:19:57] that means crane at a rock or beast, Shinto, the Okinawan version, I think it's what it's called. And it's basically a stand on one leg with your hands. And this one hand tie one has low, but the foot position it's a finger for, and there's all kinds of application for that triangle choke. Heel hooks are endless. So, there's all kinds now, whether that's what was originally mentioned, the creative kata that made that who knows, but it's undeniable, I figured for some time. So, it's cool to see movements and positions in jiu jitsu. There's also probably… Isn't that taekwondo that you do?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've done a wide variety of things. Taekwondo was on the list.
Andy Allen:
Well, I think in any form based martial art, you have what's often called x block, your hands behind your hands on a pillow, but your wrists are crossed. And that can be interpreted as a finger with your hands, your arms, or double wrist lock is the submission wrestler recall, if you're doing a Kimura lock. But anyway, this position is in all kinds of Katas and you use it as a grip. Whether it be get a grip on a leg or get a grip on an arm or even some chokes, your hands are crossed that's in contact. And there's a song called gift wrap choke, a video shot released from a YouTube channel yet the gift wrap choke, you basically get your partner's arm wrapped around the neck and you pull it tight. And then you run your fist between their forearm and their neck, and move in a certain way. It hurts like hell, where you can choke them with any of your knees on their belly. It's exactly like gankaku: you're dropped to one knee and you cross your hands down in front of your waist, it's right from the car.
So it's cool to see the relationship between grappling arts and Kata because a lot of people when I was going through shotokan for so many years, there was something to do to make me look good. And all of your gradings are based for the most part on looking good. So you do your camp, kick, snare, punches in air, just so your kata has fast and snappy sharp movements, and stances, and so on with good posture, and you do your work. When you get up to black belt level, your gradients involve pre sparring, but there was never any mention of real, realistic applications of Kata, it was just it's something for movement, learn general body movements, without any understanding of the applications and the applications that I learned from Shotokan Masters, where I'll be perfectly honest throughout the rubbish, that's being nice, really. But you know, you hear someone start for four people surrounding you, and the person on your left, sent down blood position, they do a second punch.
And they conveniently don't penetrate to hit you in the ribs. So, you step forward and block them. And they step back as you take into the room to do your counter attack. So, you can do Kata movements, right? And just none of the applications I learned years ago are based on any kind of reality whatsoever. It's just silly. But when I started seeing some real bunkai, or like misuse that term, Oyo is the application of kata. The Japanese term bunkai is the analysis or breakdown. I'll just call it that. So in Abernethy and with his organization now, back in the early 2010 around 2013, I saw some of these work both and his hand go down. And that makes sense that funny movement is what he called the [00:24:02-00:24:04] version of it that makes sense in opening movement of [00:24:07-00:00:24:09] someone's grabbing, smashed around, smash them in the neck with your so called the inside block. You crank on the show that makes sense, that's real not the nonsense that I learned before so yeah regrets in not branching out to other martial arts regrets for not exploring practical karate so all I had to learn where there was a top tropical was point Friday night became pretty decent at it.
But point fighting, it isn't this, right? You're so in the fighting. I did, just score the rules that say no contact. But really there was some at least a national level when I was competing really. He slam your fist and the guy's got fairly hard because if he's any kind of athlete, he can take it, but you hit them in their muscles on purpose, they can slam it in and make kind of a foot in the solar plexus they doubled over, maybe get a warning to the point. So, you kind of play the game, right? Same with a kick, you don't kick him, a roundhouse kick in the ribs says you can shift that angle well in the stomach where they can take it, make it sound, get a point penalty. But you can't really kind of fake that to the head if you hit them already and hit the part of the hammer. Yeah, but there's all kinds of things with. I mean, what I learned that I would deem as valuable from [00: is the ability to manipulate distance, right to get in and get out, which is what I've seen Lyoto Machida do very successfully. Yeah, right. He got a casting and then boom, boom, and those paid three times and he's got.
So, that's the kind of fun I did. That's like what I learned. But I was completely clueless within grabbing distance. And it is mostly from Kata, Bunkai that I got a pretty good base of that, doing drills that Abernathy had made. Patrick McCarthy and then I started making my own as well. Yeah, so I don't have a super colorful past, it's basically been shotokan, some jiu jitsu into judo and training with some practical karate guys. But it's a journey one way or another. Yeah, it certainly is, wherever we are, wherever we go. And there's a path in between and whether it's colorful or not, it is ours. Yeah, yeah. And you know, the path that we take, there's more than one path to the top mountain. And some paths might be more short and direct. Others are kind of windy, and you go up and down and sideways and so on. But, yeah, I guess the main thing is keep moving forward, keep learning.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So I gotta ask, because I wear a few different hats in my role here when I talk to guests, and one of them is trying to anticipate questions that the audience may have. And one of them that I'm curious about, you're speaking about, let's call you your martial arts origins. And as you said, regrets, is it possible you’re painting shotokan with a broad brush when maybe the responsibility lies with your instructors?
Andy Allen:
That's a great question. And I would say that the interactions I've had with people online some people have made comments to that effect, right? To say the least, my sensei taught us to throw my sensei. Then you find out who other sensei is also black belt in judo. So, I think we've also trained with many, many people. I was with the ice camp I left two years ago. I can talk more about that later. But we used to be part of the JKA but then of course, as happens in karate there are all kinds of politics and the left JKA but, whether I was with the JKA years ago, or just the JKA WF like we were the Americas branch of the JKA, basically. But I trained with a number of different people who love different Japanese masters and you know the, I gotta be honest, the approach was the same kind of thing. It's nice to see you do your basic forms, and thunderous key eyes I'll move in unison it's kind of cool feels good but not exactly the most practical training methodology your contact for the purpose of getting good kata and the Kumite the free sparring was useful the steps not so much.
But if you look at the curriculum that's in different shotokan organizations whether it be the [00:29:29-00:29:31] and you go along it's all three games cause I did some looking around one time cuz I was wondering is this just my experience or is this the show to the way it is around the world? And everything I could find it's with some different tweaks. Of course, the combinations are going to be different for your six [00:29:52-00:29:54]. Got to taekwondo for this organization, that organization, but it's all the same stuff. You're doing life handblock leg, you're doing two punches and shift back and etc, etc, etc. It's all the same kind of stuff that you're getting graded. So, I say it's up to the instructor to make it practical. So, I wouldn't say it was just the fault of my instructors per se, but I think that's the way shotokan is, but some people are willing to or have the ability to bring in other elements, and they've done some, some Aikido. So, they do some locking, they have done some Judo, they do some trolling, and they do some or some grant works, and it wasn't.
And I would say, that's very healthy, to be able to teach your students in a well rounded way is what I do now, if you have the background to do so. So I dance your question, I think, sort of kinda it is what it is, if you look at the grading syllabus, when a person may or may not experience is that those other elements of martial arts have different ranges of fighting or different tactics like throwing and locking that an individual structure may or may not include, based on their experience. That makes sense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I had a feeling that's where you would go. But I didn't want to answer for you. So, I figured I'd let you put into your words. You are passionate about these elements within martial arts that you were almost deprived of. That's my reaction to what you've said. Yes. So I always like to flip things. What do you think might have been different? You know, we have some alternate reality where you were exposed to practical application, you know, you would find Ian's work earlier or somewhere similar to Ian. And this sort of education was part of the curriculum you had early on, what would be different now today?
Andy Allen:
Well, if that was the case, I probably would still be training in my old organization. Because they, it was a long time because I was 19 years old when I started training. And I can remember doing this stuff in spring, the same kind of thing in taekwondo might look a bit different. But basically, the way we did it, someone, the defender, if you will, is standing, the attacker steps back in a down block position, they announce their time back and they move forward with another one to one or three attacks might be kicked, might be a punch, whatever. And you block it your counter attack, and I so in in Shotokan curricula [00:33:01-00:33:02] when I went through the color belt ranks, you would do that up until the high level and a brown belt and then for your first 10 You do what's called semi free sparring, which is just desperation from a fighting stance. And then you don't actually freespar for test purposes until you're going for your second day. So it wasn't long before I started to question even with my limited exposure to other martial arts. I just get asked, Is this practical? Is this? This makes sense.
But I didn't have the answer because it didn't have anything to compare it to. Because that's in my bubble. And you were supposed to branch out right? So, I think if early on, if there's no step start and say here here's in short and the first the first kata if you're doing some of the things that teach now we're stripping away half i smashed in the head, grabbed by the chin, bumping your throat or face the floor into a hammer for strike. That's the first four movements of the hands showdown. That's what it means or what can be. That would have made sense that would have made me stay in. Yes. Right.
I would have had all those questions because so and I'm going to tell you something. This wasn't that long ago. So, within the time I escaped, I might get myself in trouble. But with that, there is a technical committee for one particular geographical area within the organization. And they put together a document which I had to, I was privy to because, you know I was this is kind of later on how it's fairly high rank right. So, my sensei showed it to me. And it was basically a document moving towards a standardization of kata because I can do a particular kata, and someone else from the West Coast does differently. And so in a different organization, there's a different little flair to it, right? So the game was to standardize the movements and how they execute, which is fine, I have no issue with that. Because there's all kinds of versions out there. And within an organization, maybe you want some consistency. And the [00:35:29-00:35:30] was growing after the split. And we had adopted some other countries from different parts of the world. So it basically said that they were going to use the nakayama’s books, the best karate series, as a standard for how to do the techniques, except for these kinds of exceptions. And they said to you so in this kata, that we're going to do it this way, run this stuff and be done this way.
Oh, good, fine. But in, and this is when I was in the process of opening my current dojo, which was 2016. And I was trying to balance 3k Karate, on tactical karate, I was trying to teach real practical applications to kata, doing some throwing the groundwork, I was trying to teach things that would work, right. But I also had, I was still using the 3k testing syllabus to advance my students. And so, the time has come to test. And my sensei. I have a test in November, so I tell my students that we're kind of getting ready. All right, we're gonna work on one of the cases tonight, they'll do practical karate, the next night, we'll do another case, they'll do practical karate, and it was getting really hard to balance the two, they're two different animals. And I was having difficulty admitting to myself that these two approaches to karate were colliding, and they were not complementing each other. So, I was having some hang ups about opening my dojo to blend the two. So, back to this document, the, in the introductory section of the document acknowledged that there's all kinds of people and resources out there showing self-defense applications of, of course, can't ever have exactly a phrase, but it's talking about the Abernathy kind of stuff. And, but for the purposes of the ISKF, kata will be for development, body movement. That's what it said in that show.
In other words, the Bunkai we see on YouTube are all good, but we ain't gonna do that, we're gonna just talk to make a pretty and move our bodies. And when I read that, I was really disappointed, because I knew that there was absolutely no hope for the organization to change away from its status quo. And, and I'm not just dumped on the ice gift, but I think, even JKA, the big ones, their mandate is self preservation, and they have to make sure that they continue to survive. And if you discourage your members from going elsewhere and exploring and growing, then they don't see that necessarily, and they're less likely to question and more likely to accept the status quo instead of growing. Yeah. So, that was a bit of a disappointment for me. And that gave me one more reason to leave my organization. So, and then my instructor by Sensei, he's vice president now. I think he was at the time as well. So, he had a voice, right. So. I would do these videos on my YouTube channel, I do a head crank, that kind of application or joint application or choke or whatever. And I would typically share my videos with them and he can, for the most part supported was trying to do and finding the practicality in karate. And or to go back to the old days, right?
[00:40:09-00:40:11] is roughly modern martial art. It's lost its roots, essentially, I'm trying to find the roots. So, my lawyer was both my lawyer… Sorry, my sensei, who was a lawyer, there's a point that he would tend to look at the world through the lens of legalities, right. And so he's cautious about putting yourself in a position where you're going to be at risk. So, I sent him one particular video, and it's Kata called [00:40:46-00:40:47]. And basically, it was a snap of the neck. Again, a restroom I kind of have colored tights and a sharp pull down the back of the neck, this is more of a chop like a rich hand strike, chop the back of the neck, you step it down, and then I would do what's called a bicep bump. So you punch the side, the head with a kind of bent over and you hit them with your bicep, you can't really practice his hairs too much he gets a concussion, then you wrap your arm around the neck and choke them out. And so he goes, that's it, but he was a little bit worried about me putting myself in a position where somebody might want to sue me, I guess. But my response is, well, like if someone wants to learn how to choke, not gonna look at the karate guy. They're gonna look at one of the 10,000 YouTube videos out there, right on how to get a teacher, it's so ubiquitous. You're not gonna go, it's gonna single out my video and say, you know, I try getting joking, I hurt someone. Let's do Andy Allen. So, but you know, he's just trying to protect me.
So, I understand that. But that was another reason why I considered maybe it's time for me to move on. So, in January 2020, right before COVID, I had already been writing my curriculum and had been talking to Ian Abernathy, about joining the World Combat Association, the WCA. And I had to write my own curriculum under certain very broad guidelines. Basically, you have to have a bunch of things that you're covering. And so at this point, I had finished my curriculum. I had been approved of the WCA. I told my sensei, and he said, you know, I know you're gonna leave. 'I was worried about what he's gonna think, right? He's gonna be disappointed, basically. Yeah, it's just gonna be a matter of time. Before you get up and leave. He said, but you always have a home here. Anytime we come back by train. You're more than welcome to and I would teach the class for right. Once I started my own club, I would show up less often, but I'd show up so you want to teach tonight, okay.
But the students there were typically an older crowd and you know, they're into karate just for fitness. And because the dynamics of the club changed drastically from what I started in 1990 there was a university club. And you'd have a lot of university students and we do some slow sparring and stuff. But over the years, it became very different to get a lot of 50/60 year olds who had just been trained for a year or two or a few months and it just became kata and so I'm trying to do these things these people and he's he's worried right because and some of the older ones didn't they just stepped out to note my next two bad backs because they're not in it to learn how to fight but the thing that would show people my sensei like them and the my fellow students like them because it gave meaning to conduct my own ideas or things I had learned from Ian or other people McCarthy. So, yeah, so I left in January 2020 But then you know, ready to go full steam ahead and then COVID hits everything since then.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's talk about YouTube. Let's talk about where we're the desire to not only explore this but share this side of the martial arts originated for you.
Andy Allen:
You know, again, I didn't have any kind of grandiose ambitions but I think I just checked today. Now it's pretty modest. The number of subs I have, it's close to 4000 not making any real money off it, but it's fun to do. But I started off just as a you know, a little pet project and I started out when I was opening my dojo. And just as you know, to have a bank of resources if nothing else for the students, say I started off, just kind of tweaking some events drills and I had trained with him down in New Jersey for the first time in 2016. And I said, ``Hey, I want to do some videos and think if I do some of yours to give you credit, is that okay?” Yeah, yeah, absolutely. He is an awesome guy. So, yes, I, my first few were based on his work for the most part, and some of them still are. And then as I learned more, I became more creative. But yeah, it just started off with, you know, I'd have 30 subs. And I was so excited today, I got 100 subs. And then Ian shared one of my videos one time, and you can track your metrics through the YouTube studio. And you know, relatively speaking my views, exploded, subs. But yeah, I never really started it to make a name for myself, if I've even done that yet. I don't know. But it's just kind of a fun journey. I'm still going through it. And I guess to some extent, it's a way to kind of help keep me motivated to keep going as I have new ideas. I sit down, I edit some footage, I put it out there. It's for me, it's a way to track my learning to track my progress to track my journey. And I think it's just a good idea to share that with people. And a lot of people find it helpful. And like to see a shotokan person doing something practical. Of course, I have my haters out there too. They're very quick. Some of them say that's not short again, and eventually had to start saying yeah, you're right. It's applying short again. Yeah, so but yeah, if the way I see it is if there's one video I want to film someday, it's basically it's a movie technique. You catch a round kick, you lift their leg up, pull the head dance. It's right from Kata.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I know exactly what you're talking about.
Andy Allen:
Yeah. So yes. It's that one legged stance I'm talking about with your, with your foot behind your, your knee. Yeah, so if I, whether it's from you know, from Muay Thai or from jiu jitsu, or whatever, if I can show that it's in kata. Or at least it's his karate and some people will say, that's not karate. Well, nothing crazy. You know, it is the karate I know. Yeah, so the theme, the YouTube channels, it's kind of fun. I am a bit of a geek. I just enjoy the process of sitting down and editing footage. I don't know why I like that. He's like tracking the YouTube metrics. I like the graph going up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And up into the right.
Andy Allen:
Yeah, as long as it's not down into the right. Yeah, that happens as soon as you get inactive you see things that plummet but yeah, so during cool 2020 Especially if I do in all my classes there is a high school class I teach I was filmed the workouts and just because everyone around the world is all locked down. So I may as well share some of the stuff. And so I would just hit a 15 minute workout or a 30 minute karate workout and I just put up on YouTube and people message me from Germany and from the States and from the UK and say this is fantastic. Nothing to do this weekend. Now get myself a workout. So whether it be a workout or something simple, it could be something like a pad drill, I get comments people seem to be liking it. So just keep doing it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's keeping you motivated.
And let me put some subtext on that question. Teaching is hard work. Stepping into the internet and creating content that you know, a portion of the viewership will find fault with and has no problem terreni down four, it can be tiring, exhausting, depressing, even. And you're choosing to do these things.
Andy Allen:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why?
Andy Allen:
I've been there some days and I asked myself, why the hell do I even bother online? Because with the trolls, they come out in droves. Right. And yeah, I'll admit I enjoy much way more positive feedback than trolling. But we also have to be cognizant of who's watching our stuff, right? So, it's mostly karate people who watch my stuff. Or taekwondo people or whatever. It's not the jiu jitsu crowd. And they're brutally honest. So yeah, there's all kinds of reasons not to do it. But I guess, for one, that positive comment that you'll get from someone that keeps me going, the drive to want to study and learn more, that keeps me going. And I want to be able to do as much as I can while I can. And as we were discussing earlier, getting those is no fun, and I high kicks, they're just too much work and too much pain. Now. I do low kicks. Grap’s fun, but I have to play carefully. And I can still train in jiu jitsu and play in the dojo, and still learn and experiment and tweak. And, I guess, to [00:50:55-00:55:56]. But you know, everyone's body has a shelf life. And it just gets harder and harder to train martial arts in a practical way, before your body wears out. And so I'm trying to get as much done as I can before.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You use the word play. And that's been a little bit of a recurring art on this show, the selection of the verb with which you apply your martial arts, are you training? Are you practicing? Are you whatever… I like word playing. It sounds a bit disparaging at times, but I didn't hear any of that in, in the way you said it is that the word you choose?
Andy Allen:
I think the word I’ll choose, when I was 25, I probably wouldn't use the word play when I was doing my sparring. When I was 25, it was more about when, right, whether we're just in the dojo sparring with some… I've been trained with for years, I want to make sure I get more punches and kicks in on him than he does me. Because I'm a competitive person by nature. Yes. But now for me to do the “karate sparring”, punch kick stuff. My explosiveness is gone, I just need her toes, her hips are just like, can't go hard like I used to. Even if I take the time to warm up, I'm not going to be able to walk properly the next day. So, it's more about playing than winning. And so I much rather just spar, light, half speed, three quarters be whatever that means. And take some kicks and give some kicks and just play and not worry about who's winning, but just enjoy it. And I think the word play can be just having fun. But we learned by planning, whether we're children or whether adults and playing can also mean experimenting. So, when you're going, whether it be grappling style, or punch kick constraint or groundwork, whatever, if you approach it with a playful attitude.
So, you both agreed not to go 100%. You can try things that you know you probably wouldn't be able to pull off if you're going 100% and being competitive with each other. Right? So there's certain things again, when I was competing, to do a head get around, roundhouse kick, I can count on one hand, I think I scored with that. In all the years I competed, just because when you compete at national, lower and international level, I guess I just wasn't quite fast enough to get pulled off on the guys who were good, right? So, if someone's better than me, I'm going to stick to my bread and butter, the stuff I know, I have the best chance of winning with and but you know, when you're in competition, you're not trying to learn how to win. But I would bring that attitude, I suppose for lack of a better word, into the dojo. So, me and my buddy are fine. And I still want to get the better of him, can still get you, still have that competitive thing, and don't want to try something I'm working on against someone who's as good as me. In case it doesn't work, and that makes absolutely no sense. But when I was young, I was just too damn competitive. And as to worry about not being the best. Which is silly when I say that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, but I think, a fairly universal experience that not all of us grow past.
Andy Allen:
Yeah, well, that's the Asian martial arts part, right. So, veins and tendonitis and stuff, it's that it's the majority, hopefully, yeah. And doesn't always come through with some slower learning than others. So if I'm sparring with most of my students, I have our teams. And if I have one guy, he's only yellow belt, he's been training for about a year. And he's, if he could train more, he'd be really, really good. Based, flexible, he's pretty quick. So on his feet, that's the karate star. And he's pretty good. So when we're playing, I dial it down even. From what I'm able to do now, I have the dog doll, otherwise it just gets overwhelmed, of course. But I'll double down to the point where he's probably not going to get any punches or kicks in, but he's able to try and able to almost get there. Right? So for me it has to be enjoyable and beneficial for him or for him to learn. If I crank it up to 100%, you know, I'm going to kick him in the leg and I'm going to kick you in the head, once my pitch gets warmed up. And with us, it's no fun for him. So it's play, and I don't, if he gets a punch in, I don't worry about it too much. Whereas years ago, I would be very cautious about letting myself get open and just be competitive, maybe not going 100%. But being reserved, and what I'm going to do in terms of techniques and strategies that things are going to be best.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, you're not alone in what you're presenting. And we've heard that on the show a number of times from a number of folks. And it's that analogy, the mountain you used earlier. Like there's so many different ways to get there. But not only are we all headed in roughly the same direction, whether we realize it or not. But I think and you added a piece to this analogy for me today, that I hadn't considered the idea of some paths being more meandering than others means there's going to be some overlap. Yeah, I'm gonna cross paths with other people at certain times. And my hope is that as time passes, we'll collectively get better at realizing that we're on the same map. We're headed for more or less the same goals. You know, we're just trying to get better at whatever the parts are that resonate for us.
Andy Allen:
Yeah. Well, I mean, my jiu jitsu club has a very large personality, a blue belt. His name's Eric, and he's just full of life. And it's a lot of fun playing with him, because I know he dials it way down for me, right. I'm just still a white belt. And he's been trained a lot more in the grappling arts than I am. He did some judo. And I don't know how long he's been doing Judo or Jiu Jitsu, probably for years, I'm guessing. But he does it down. And that's the play, but he makes it sure. Nope, not getting that show up. Nope, not getting that sweet. He'll stop it. So let's say we're working on Omoplata. It's like a shoulder lock using your legs. He'll kind of get in a position, I'll recognize it. And they'll go for it. He'll take it away. But it's a really great way to learn for me. And it's for me as an instructor, too. It's a good takeaway. So, he's given me opportunities, opportunities to practice what we had done that class from previous classes to recognize it, or to flow from one position to another position, while at the same time making sure I had to work for it and taking away the opportunity at the last possible second. It's a really, really fun way to roll. Is that that playful approach? And then when he wants to turn it on, then I'm done.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, there is. There is nothing better. You know, you're kind of talking about it from both sides now. Yeah. There's nothing better or I think there's nothing more enjoyable than training with someone when you can suspend your ego regardless of the delta between skill levels. Yeah. If I'm working with someone who is much less experienced than I do, I can have a lot of fun because of what you just described with this blue belt, putting them in positions and trying to help them see what's going on. If I'm working with someone who has a great deal of skill more than I do, I can't help but learn in that environment. And if I'm working with someone of similar skill, well, we're both constantly challenging each other and benefiting from the use of the other's body. And, you know, all three scenarios I think are phenomenal.
Andy Allen:
Yeah. But, you know, martial arts should be about learning, right? Whether your instructor, and as an aside, it's important to admit that we had things left to learn. Or whether you're a beginner, there's a learning path. And that's always our goal. And instructors have been around for a long time. I mean, I wish I knew now, when I was 25, I wish I knew, sure. I don't have the speed and explosiveness and the strength that I used to obviously, but I just know a whole lot more about my mouth, my bucket of knowledge is exponentially larger, just without all the benefits youth has brought to the picture.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But then, that brings the old saying youth is wasted. In the young, if you'd had all that knowledge, would you have explored all of it? Or would you as I expect, I did. Only use those things that, you know, made me feel good about myself?
Andy Allen:
Yeah, if I was 25 now, and I could look into my future, about what I was going to be missing. I think I would definitely have chosen to not quit sugar cane but to branch out, explore. And you know, there's nothing wrong with having a kind of I think if I don't know, if he can stay in martial arts for a year, then quit that and go another one and do another one. I suppose there are some benefits to that. But perhaps it's best to be kind and supplement that with some other experiences.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I think in most cases, that's true. Yeah. So, let's expand on the hypothetical of you talking to your past self or in the past talking in your future self, if there is someone who is in their 20s, or their late teens listening and, you know, they're probably not even fully aware of how much ego drives what they do. Right? If you would ask me at 25 how much ego I had, I would have said, Oh, very little. But in contrast to now, I was immensely ego driven. Yeah, I think. What would you tell those folks?
Andy Allen:
Well, it's sometimes hard to talk to young people because they know everything right. But I think young people. We don't know what we don't know. One of my favorite sayings, right? So when I was 25. You know, I was decent, but what I was doing, but I didn't know what the heck else was out there. So, if I could go back and talk to my young self, I say, look, here's what you can do with karate. Here's a whole world of the grappling arts that you're missing out on. Keep doing what you're doing but supplement that. Understand that your skill set you're developing is what it is, is very, very narrow. Where's your learning how to strike from mid to long range? Try some groundwork because you know, even my 51 year old self, I'd say, you know, for what I have for ground fighting abilities. That's this tree on the ground school, and I picked my 25 years as any day, because you didn't know anything. He's absolutely clueless. Not to say I'm an accomplished fighter racer. It's imagination. But you can be the best puncher/kicker in the world. But if you've never grappled on the ground, and you just have no idea what to do, you just don't. So it'd be fun to go show myself what I was missing. And say if you want to be a well rounded martial artist, go explore judo club, down the other end of the city, go join them. Learn how to throw, you learn how to find the ground. And that will make you more of a complete martial artist.
The problem with that is if, let's say your goal as a young person is to be a good competitor in karate or in taekwondo, you need to if you want to compete at the national or international level, you have to invest a lot of time. And you can't be dabbling in three different martial arts, you have to devote yourself to one. And in the end, the thought is WKF the world. Karate Federation is when at the Olympics, you get competitors there, they're either only doing kata or kumite sparring, and not doing kata. They're doing kata for the sake of making a dance and not doing it because they don't have time if they want to compete at that level. So, I would tell myself, there's more to merge certs and then competition. Go learn something else, learn a different skill set. And maybe you like it enough to make that your main wrestler. Yeah, and also for the young people out there. I was actually talking to one of the guys that you just got. He's 21 years old. I have an old son and he's complaining about his shoulder that don't tell your shoulder. Like make you a list. But yeah, that night I was. I just said let's just go superlight because some kind of banged up. He was really good about it. But I said, take care of your body, Buddhists and physio, osteopath, because that comes back to haunt you believe me? And says, yeah, I really should.
Don't just tell yourself like, go get some treatment and get healed. Because jiu jitsu is really hard on the body, people are cranked on your shoulders and everything all the time. And if you don't take care of that when you're young, it's gonna be debilitating when you're old. Now, the young guy was talking two years ago. He was at a different jiu jitsu gym. And he's talking to me about karate. And I said, yeah, go try all of it. Go try some judo, try some karate, try some. Whatever, raise your hands. Like don't just take one thing. You're young, you're single, you have no kids, I have no idea how much life is gonna change when you're like, hey, this guy was really young. I think he's still in school. Do things when you have the time. And when you have the energy, and life doesn't get you bogged down. Just go explore the world of martial arts. It's a fun journey. But don't don't wait for your old man to do it. I sound like I'm some cranky old. Get off my lawn.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There is an element of that there. But I bought it. It's the surface that is that. And, you know, maybe it's because I'm not that far off from you and age that I can relate. I can understand. You know, I think any of us who find things that we're really passionate about, there's an instinctive nature to want to rewind time and get to where we are faster because that gives us more time to do the things we love so much. And that's I think that's just human nature to want that. So, I get it. Yeah, how can people find you?
Andy Allen:
YouTube @appliedshotokan. A funny thing, I get called it a couple of times for the way I pronounce sort of the number of people who've gone out of their way to spell it phonetically. And it should be shotokan. I don't know why people feel the need to correct me on my dialect, but it is what it is. So, I applied shotokan. YouTube, on Instagram, same thing @appliedshotokan, not ‘shotoken”. And my blog site is kind of having some technical issues, but it's appliedshotokan.ca for Canada.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know what, anybody who gets bent out of shape, about the way a thing is pronounced? Or my favorite one is anything involving the English spelling of words that really are not English words. Right? You know, right. Like if I wrote down the word, if I wrote the word gi as like gii, when the generally accepted English spelling as gi people would lose their mind. Yeah, yeah. Why? So, waste of energy. Shut up and train.
Andy Allen:
Yeah. This guy was calling me on my pronunciation. I think I replied. This is last year. That's the only thing I find wrong with my video must be doing something right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Or more than likely, that person doesn't have anywhere close to the level of knowledge to even work on the stuff that you're giving him. And instead of him investing the time to get better, he finds a reason to dismiss what you say, “Oh, if he can't even get the name right, this guy clearly doesn't know anything.”
Andy Allen:
Yeah, yeah, that was I did a countdown, the top five videos from my YouTube channel. And I posted. Oh, I've got a Facebook group called Applied Shotokan by Andy Allen.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You can pronounce it however you want. If you want to pronounce it. Applied Shotokan. I'm not gonna sweat was the thing. Top five videos, Facebook?
Andy Allen:
Yeah, there's one I filmed last summer. And it was entitled Is there too much emphasis on hip rotation and shotokan. And I swear some people didn't watch the video. And all I was trying to say is even as a black guy spends countless hours in a long front stance, heels flat on the floor, feet not moving, rotate, reverse punch speeds, that reverse punch, reset over and over and over network keys, like a jab, cross kind of thing. But rooted in this long stance. You just drill, drill, drill, rotate, or hips, more hips, more hips. But the whole point of the video was there are other ways to generate power. Impact, other than hip rotation, is important. But if you move your math forward, you can lean into it a little bit, you can throw your shoulder into a punch, etc, etc, etc. That's all that was the point of the video, there's more than just a rotation. And some people all they could get away with. What do you mean, you have to add rotation. And so one person started criticizing my technique. And he actually said something to the effect that she would take me seriously, if I can't even pronounce shorter con correctly. This made a difference that someone had shared my video on a different Facebook page with trolls.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, we've managed to dodge a lot of that because, you know, very rarely are we saying anything ourselves, you know, we will put out content from other people. And because we are what I call style agnostic in our philosophy as a brand, you know, we're not putting out content that says this is how you do this, or how you should do this, or anything. So, we've escaped quite a bit of it, which I am thankful for. But that doesn't mean we are without detractors. So I know what you're talking about. And it can be so frustrating because there is an inverse correlation between the amount of hate and the amount of skill.
Andy Allen:
Yeah, it's often the case. If you say, well, maybe you can show me a video, shoot a video for me, what do you think this means? No, of course. Yeah. But you know what, let's be honest, it does help the algorithm. Yeah, there's some very successful people out there and the entirety of their business model is taking people off. Yeah. And I can think of a certain celebrity boxer doing that right now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I made no implications about any, any individuals and what they might pursue day to day, but I think it's the case that you're talking about that guy's got more money than both of us put together.
Andy Allen:
Maybe he's not one. So yeah. Yeah. Meanwhile, I'm going to work tomorrow.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, I appreciate you coming on. Yeah. Thanks for sharing your story. And we always end with the guest's word. So what do you want to tell the people listening?
Andy Allen:
Martial arts is a wonderful journey. It's both broad and deep. There's so much to offer. Whether you have been doing something for 20 years or just have thought about starting up and finding a dojo, find a dojo, throw yourself in it. Go learn, go have fun, become a better person, improve your body, improve your mind, take in everything you can from as many people stay in one place.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think there's something to be said for looking back. And understanding where we came from why we did the things we did, because it tells us about who we are now and why we're doing what we're doing now. But I also think it's important to recognize that no matter what we did, then it was going to bring us to where we are now. And I think that we have a tendency as we age to look back, you know, and he was talking about this, I have these same inner dialogues. Well, if I had found this sooner if I had done this sooner if I met this person earlier, and maybe you'd be further than you are now, I certainly could be further on my path than I am now. But would I ever be satisfied with that? And that was what I left this conversation thinking about this idea that, I think if we're doing it, “right”, we're always going to want more. And there's a difference between being proud of the work that you've put in and the results that have come from it. And feeling satisfied in a way that you stop.
Hopefully, those of you listening or the former, not the latter. And I'm sure that Andy falls into that first bucket. For sure. Thanks for coming on the show. Had a good time. And hope to get to talk to you again. Listeners, head on over to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Check out the show notes, all the stuff and make sure you show Andy some love. Check out his YouTube page, the other stuff that he's got going if you're willing to support us here at whistlekick in the work that we're doing, you have a few options. You might consider buying one of our Amazon books telling others about the show or supporting us at patreon.com/whistlekick. Are you interested in having me come to your school? Put on a seminar? Let me know by emailing Jeremy@whistlekick.com. The code PODCAST15 sees a 15% off something in the store at whistlekick.com. If you have suggestions, guests, feedback, anything like that, let us know. And of course our social media is @whistlekick. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.