Episode 756 - Maddie Madison
Maddie Madison is a 73-year-old Martial Arts practitioner from Colorado that still actively trains via Zoom.
I’ve always prided myself that if you want to play the piano, you can play the piano. That came from the only President I’m interested in, John F. Kennedy. President Kennedy encourages that thinking; that you can do ANYTHING… That has served me very well in my life.
Maddie Madison - Episode 756
If you’ve lived through the 60s, Martial Arts schools were not as present as they are today. In the absence of schools at that time, Maddie Madison was able to find Martial Arts through books before finding a Karate school.
In this episode, Maddie Madison shares her journey not only to the Martial Arts but also to her sobriety. Listen to learn more!
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How are you? And thanks for being here. This is whistlekick martial arts radio, Episode 756 with my guest today, Maddie Madison. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host for the show the founder of whistlekick, where everything we do is to support traditional martial artists. And the traditional martial arts. Want to know what that means? Go to whistlekick.com. If it's your first time or you haven't been there in a while, you should probably check it out because we're constantly adding things. After all, we're constantly looking for new ways to support. One of the things we've got there at our store, we sell an ever-changing selection of apparel and training programs. And what else is over their events, so much good stuff, use the code PODCAST15 to get 15% off just about anything that we sell.
Now, the website for this show is actually different from whistlekickmartialartsradio.com to episodes every week, with the goal of connecting, educating, and entertaining traditional martial artists everywhere. If you want to help the show and help the martial arts community by extension, well, you can do a bunch of stuff, you could grab a book, you could tell a friend about us, leave a review somewhere, or maybe join the Patreon. If you think new shows are worth 63 cents, you can join Patreon for $5 a month. And we're also going to give you bonus episodes and you can participate in live hangouts, there's so much other stuff going on over there, that $5. That's a bargain, please consider it but if you want the full list, if you want to go deeper than that, maybe you're already a Patreon contributor. And if you are, thank you so much for doing so. We've got the whistlekick.com family page, you got to type it in, it's not linked.
And we do that because we figure if you're willing to take that little hurdle, you deserve the stuff on the other side. Thank you to those of you who check that out. We change it weekly. I had a great conversation with Maddie. We talked about these two sorts of distinct times in her life when martial arts played a role and how the second time was very intentional. Not going to give anything away. There's some power in these stories here. I hope you enjoy them. Hey, Maddy, Welcome to whistlekick martial arts Radio.
Maddie Madison:
Thank you, I'm really happy to be here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm happy to have you here. We were just talking, you know what you're in for you've listened to the show. And that makes my job so much easier. I don't have to, I don't have to convince you that we're on the same side.
Maddie Madison:
I appreciate that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't know if you listen to other podcasts. But sometimes they're not on the same side.
Maddie Madison:
I actually listened to a lot of your podcasts, it's usually either we're taking a bath, or right before I'm going to sleep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There you go. We people listen to this show in so many different ways. And for so many different reasons. And that's honestly one of my favorite things. It's not one thing to one group of people. It's a bunch of different things to a bunch of groups of people. And I think that's cool. As with any episode, we're going to wander, we're going to talk about different things over periods. You know, where do I like to start? I like to start at the beginning most of the time. So what's the beginning of your martial arts journey look like?
Maddie Madison:
Wow, guys, gosh, it goes back to the mid to early 60s. I hate to age myself, that's what it is. And I just have always had an interest. I didn't bleed crusade. It didn't drive me because I was being bullied and I wanted self-defense. I just thought, wow, this is pretty cool. I bought several books, which were very rare back then. And I didn't get a chance to take my first class in 1967. I looked at my old membership cart on February 67.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You still have it.
Maddie Madison:
I still have it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, that's cool.
Maddie Madison:
And of course, it was a [0:04:27-0:04:28]. And the Sensei was fresh from the instructors' training in Japan. And I know a lot of people nowadays don't like to hear about wow, it was so different and you know, it was tougher, blah, blah, blah many years ago. And all I'll say is it was different. At least what I was exposed to [0:04:58-0:04:59]. I am still training. So now, I have taken five styles since then. I've had some somewhat of a look at it. Yeah, I've trained in Montana and Pennsylvania and down in Florida. So I have had a look at different styles and what they offer and they're all great. Of course, they're, I mean, I think they are there.
Jeremy Lesniak:
They all exist for a reason.
Maddie Madison:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's where I go. I want to go back though, to the early 60s. And as you said, there weren't a lot of martial arts, there weren't even a lot of books. So I'm curious, how did you get exposed to martial arts in such a way that you were so strongly interested? Did you want to go buy books?
Maddie Madison:
And just, I can't really answer the next one. I don't know. I mean, I was just aware of it. And I just was super intrigued about it. And I think I can remember the first book I bought, I believe and I'm gonna really put you to his name, Mas Oma?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Maddie Madison:
And of course, good guy. He's dropping a bull, just like, who doesn't want to drop a bull? I believe that was the first one. And then yeah, I don't remember afterward. But I'm sure I've got about 20 books here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Maddie Madison:
I still like to read stories, autobiographies, and whatnot. One of the quote famous people that I was able to train with for two years was Sensei Jim Harrison up in Montana. He was the only non-traditional Japanese even though he claimed that we were doing an open style. We didn't concentrate much on forms there. Harrison was all about fighting. But Jim was a pretty neat guy. I was sad to find out a few years ago that he had passed away. Every once in a while, I do look at the Super Senseis, that was quite an experience with him.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How much do you remember about that time, February of 67 in your first classes?
Maddie Madison:
I remember. Wow. Like some of the exercises we did, you would trade punches with people in the [0:07:45-0:07:46] and you get a [0:07:47-0:07:48], I'd be a really good neighbor, good slaps. I remember doing squats when another student was on your back on your shoulders and doing squats. Do you know that kind of stuff? Very, very disciplined, of course. And I don't think my sensei did. His name was Jim Ambrose from the Valley karate club in Pennsylvania. And last night look, he's still alive and well. But it was quite different and this is before what I referred to as the Big Shotokan splits. When a split, they split gasses. So different splits now should have just amazed me. But this is the old JKA and again. I believe history serves me well. Japan sent several different structures to different people, one filter states and the only other one, I think of Pennsylvania, he was down there it was down in Philadelphia. But it was fun. I won't say brutal, brutal.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But it was tough.
Maddie Madison:
It was if they didn't know them, you'd have a lot more dropped out.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've talked to people who've talked about that time. You know, I wasn't around then. But I came up in the early 80s. And there were still some shadows of that time. And what I've heard people say about the 60s specifically is a lot of instructors prided themselves on a high dropout rate of putting together classes so brutal that people couldn't handle it. So you'd have these schools with eight students.
Maddie Madison:
We think we averaged Canada 15 at all times. There's a dropout rate but also because it was new shortly. He was new to that area. We have a lot of people coming in and of course, martial arts in general still has a pretty high dropout rate, I think, I ended up off a few years ago, it was actually an honor. I can remember after class one time I sent this just as the lateral path has taken eight, nine years of this guy, one day after class, and he was Japanese. And I say that because he was short on work. And at the press, he just looked over at me says you'd like kids. That's an unusual question. Of course, I like kids. And I think the next question or the next thing I was Northwest was at the school. I ended up working for him for four years. Three different schools three times a week
Jeremy Lesniak:
Teaching kids classes
Maddie Madison:
Teaching kids classes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And he didn't ask you if you wanted to do it, he just had to be there.
Maddie Madison:
It turned out to be just one of the biggest joys. I mean, the first few months it was hard, because he wanted that, of course, his way.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Maddie Madison:
I don't always follow the rules. I'm a little more friendly and a little more lenient. I mean, I can remember if kids were to mess up, he'd make a duck walk around the gymnasium. I don't feel sorry for him. You don't have to do that. After three or four laps, because they'd be crying, right? But I had a ball doing that. And of course, all I taught was [0:11:48-0:11:50] 1000s and 1000s of times very, very few of them ever got passed because these were middle school kids who graduated to [0:12:03-0:12:04]. But I just had a ball doing that and I just looked forward to it. And there were three different schools up here. I live up in the mountains by House at 7000 feet. Our dojo was at 9000. And if anybody hasn't been exposed to altitude training that 9000 feet is.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, sure.
Maddie Madison:
That's challenging by itself also.
Jeremy Lesniak:
For sure.
Maddie Madison:
But I loved it then it went to after about a year, he would call me, oh, maybe every third time, when we were having our classes, he could call me early and say, Would you come in early? And he would have my work with the kids at the dojo. And that went after two years where I did the new kids, not the older kids there. I did the KIPP kids' classes at the dojo. And that went to when he would go by Sensei when he got to Japan or wherever, to his seminars which to me, it was an honor. Do you know that?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Maddie Madison:
Give me the kid's classes. So I enjoyed that. And I did that up until I had two heart attacks a few years ago. And how to stem, yadda. And my stamina was just almost down to zero. I would, I thought it was an attitude, but it wasn't, it's got heart disease, and that is what it is. But one day, I was working with one of the kids and this kid is obviously about 14 or so years old. And I would do a [0:13:56-0:13:57] and I do it took me time to gonna have to bail out, leave the mat. Just sit on the sidelines, click this up, and go back in. And after class, you just looked at me since I think you came back too soon. And that was right before, was about six months or so, before the COVID yet.
So then, I wasn't doing anything for I don't know about a year. So this room here in the background is a spare bedroom. And I decided once again, I got to do so especially in the wintertime out here in Colorado. I better do something. So I turned it into my little dojo, and I would practice my Katas. And then I learned about Zoom. Before that, I couldn't spell Zoom. I trained three days a week. I trained a group from Indiana University. They're mostly Shotokan people, which is fine. And I trained another time with a group from Southern Utah. And then I changed with another friend from Indiana. And we do basics, but basically, it is doing [0:15:22-0:15:23]. And I have learned so much I love Zoom.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I will say one of the best things to come out of the last few years is that everybody knows about Zoom. A lot of the barriers around distance training or online training or whatever you want to call it have if not broken down, completely fractured. And then from our very selfish standpoint, we don't have to tell people what Zoom is. Because if the audience in case you don't know, this is how we conduct almost all of our episodes over Zoom. So you knew what it was, we didn't have to explain to you what it was. It makes our job easier.
Maddie Madison:
I like training again, it's because they know me well enough now where they refer to it. The one guy I trade would I think you've hit the wall. Because my standard was s*cked. My heart is good. I mean, I want to do it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Maddie Madison:
You know if I do. Oh, she'll help me do Katas likes for instance Kushanku or Naihanchi after about 70 times then I start screwing up. And I mean, I forget moves that I know. And say, Well, I think you're hitting the wall. And of course, she's right. It took her a while to recognize that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is that getting better as time goes on?
Maddie Madison:
No, it'll never go.
Jeremy Lesniak
Oh, wow. Fascinating.
Maddie Madison:
When I found out I had heart problems. I had just gotten I've got two German Shepherds. And interestingly enough, one was named Wattle. And the other one is named Kai.
Jeremy Lesniak
Great names
Maddie Madison:
Great names. And one is an import actually, he has a password from Europe that hadn't shipped over. And the first year I had to go see my sister in Ohio, and her house, I looked it up its elevation is like 240 feet. And I remember thinking because I was what I call s*cking air around that time, and I kept thinking, oh, boy, go to Ohio. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna breathe, and we're gonna have all this energy. And I really believe that wasn't the case.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And it didn’t happen.
Maddie Madison:
And I was in her house one day, and my bedroom was upstairs and I just did a little flight of steps. We took like six or seven steps and there was a landing, the staircase changing away. And I stopped at the staircase, I was just there. To me, it was just normal, because it was simply their looks at me and she's about 10 years older than I am. She was almost 80 at the time, she looked at me, and she says, boy, she says you got to go see a doctor if there's something wrong with you. And your father died of a heart attack. I remember my response to [0:18:27-0:18:29] and being defensive.
And so when I came back to Colorado, I did, when the CIA saw my GP, what was going on? And they sent me to a cardiologist, and at first, they sent me to pulmonary specialists. Until they found out they did the angioplasty and angioplasty are interesting people who don't know if they actually stick the camera in your wrist and go all the way up into your heart. And they give you a protocol, which you're conscious of when you don't feel anything, you're kind of out there. And right in front of the table, you're in an operating room. There's a big eye, a 37-inch television screen and of course, I don't know I think that's more for them. But I mean, it shouldn't be there. So watch this. And I remember the cardiologist at first, he's pretty negative. He says why don't you know, you know, I can hear him talking, I don't think there's any blockage or anything here and then all of a sudden the camera and you can just hear us wow. And I had a complete blockage in one of my left angio.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No way.
Maddie Madison:
And so when we put the stamp and I again, the state probably thought wow, I'm gonna have the energy I'm gonna have this, and no. So it is what it is. I mean, I'm just glad that they caught that. And that I can still do things.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I would imagine, though, that if after doing let's say seven or eight forms, or whatever, certain sets of things if you know, there's a point where you're gonna have to stop, does that make you more thoughtful about what and how you train?
Maddie Madison:
I am pretty dense. Alright, well, I mean, that's just the way I consider myself a doer. So, I want to go. I want to be like you. I want to go with the class. And a lot of the people, gosh, I mean, I was definitely the oldest person in the class, but I never I don't think that. So it's to me, it's frustrating. It's still frustrating. I had a class last night, and knock on wood, it was an hour and a half. And I did pretty well, there was just three of us. And so I get to rest a lot, because it's like, well, you do yours. And then someone does, and we switch off doing Katas won't be [0:21:19-0:21:20], but that helps. And I still hit that wall. But hopefully, I'll be able to continue to do it. I have been to the cardiologist a couple of times in the last month, and they're thinking I had another blockage to do another one of those angioplasties actually, they were supposed to call me a couple of weeks ago. And for some reason, they spaced it out, and I'm so dumb, it's like, well, I'm not gonna call you and volunteer for it either. So, I've got a good attitude about it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It sounds it you're training because you love to train, and everything else is secondary.
Maddie Madison:
I want to leave this world healthy. I just do. I mean, again, I live in Colorado, I play disc golf, and I just had to, I bought an E-bike because I biked pretty much all my life. And I got to where I couldn't ride the bike. Everything up here is about the news. There's nothing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's what I'm thinking, the way you're talking about riding a bike, I'm thinking, I don't know that I'm riding a bike at 9000 feet or 7000 feet
Maddie Madison:
There's nothing flat round. And so when I rode my bike ride with my regular bike, I would always have to climb up to the top of the hill, and I have to walk the bike. There used to be this one area before I hit the hill that was about 200 yards and there was a telephone pole, I'd always I'd be riding my bike, why I want to make it to that telephone pole, or if I want to make it just 10 feet pass it. But always I don't think I've ever made it to the top of the hill. And I actually had a neighbor make fun of me one time. Well, geez, my wife could do that. Well, good for her. But anyways, I ended up buying an e-bike. Well, that just opened up. I mean that kind of opened up a door that just brought me so much joy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, that's great.
Maddie Madison:
I did 1000 miles a year on that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow.
Maddie Madison:
Through the four years, I had it. But in the last two years, I had broken my ribs twice. And that's, I think because I got a head injury and it's just the balance thing. Last time I broke frenum right at the end of my driveway, I was gonna go for a 27-mile ride because that boat, that's about the battery would run out or start to and you don't want to at least be I mean, I can't ride a regular bicycle that allowed me an e-bike.
Jeremy Lesniak:
They're even heavier
Maddie Madison:
With a tap, yeah, with a 10-pound battery. But I went to the I got to the end of my driveway and I took the left and I had out of my backpack. I had a savage route that I met. 27 miles would take me about three and a half hours because quite often that's too much cuz I was wiped out. It's just it's so beautiful.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why not enjoy? Absolutely.
Maddie Madison:
And I got to have my driving as soon as I took a left. I looked at the sun and I realized, oh, I forgot my sunglasses. I wasn't upset. He was like, for about my sunglasses and they just let him turn. Gosh, it had been different within three, or four minutes then would have been on my journey. So, I crashed and burned and I broke three ribs. I think there was made 19th. And that's the fifth time I've broken ribs by God. At my age, you just don't heal. unlike you did when you are young, that was hurt. And took my spring and early summer absolutely away from me. It just did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That stinks.
Maddie Madison:
So I ended up selling the bike. I had regrets, but I'm also proud of myself because had that happened 20 years ago, my ego would not have let me sell that bike so it's a good thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Did you fight stubbornness and train differently? I mean, broken. Anyway, I suspect a lot of people listening to this show have broken ribs before, there's really not much you can do. But just try to take it easy.
Maddie Madison:
And again, when I was young, I think the first time I broke my ribs was at a tournament in Spokane, Washington. And I remember they had to stop the back, of course, but I sat there, to watch and I remember walking around and I'm sore because there was a voice learned it bruised ribs hurt as much as a broken denial. And it was several hours later before I ended up going to the emergency room. And I'll never forget the doctor coming out and he had an X-ray in one hand and a needle in the other and he says, you broke three ribs, you got two floaters. And one of the hardest parts about because I don't remember a whole lot about that. But I've never had one of the hardest parts. It's a long drive from Spokane, Washington back to Missoula, Montana. You really feel the bumps in the road. But I mean, those kinds of ribs after five or six weeks, I was pretty much-doing things. No, they were sore, but they were, they didn't stop me this last time here in May, it stopped me. So it's like, I'm not willing to go through that. I'm just not.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We were talking before we got rolling, that you got back into martial arts, which of course means that there was a point where you got out of martial arts. And I'm curious if you wouldn't talk about that step away.
Maddie Madison:
Step away. I'm not proud of it, but I'm not ashamed of it. It was I got very heavy into drugs and alcohol. It was kind of a mess. And that was quite a few years. And when I got sober it was just one day. I just decided I remember just thinking there are only two ways this is going to add this, especially with the drugs because I was just this is a non-pot thing. I just remember thinking that there are only two ways this is gonna end and that's going to be jail or I'm gonna die. And I gave up drugs. I gave up alcohol and I gave up smoking cigarettes pretty much back that all at the same time because each one individually was a b*tch and then afterward, I had to think you know, I had to replace that because when I got drunk I was a social butterfly.
I wake up in the mornings and have 10 to 15 new best friends. I tried that lifestyle for four more years and I like to think about it and so I know that my life is straight out better really nice spouse. We're together for 14 years and sadly she committed suicide and so I spent a while I guess about a year on what I call a pity pot and this is the same little light bulb in my head that went off as like well you know this, this s*cks. doing this to me. I'm doing this to me it's a choice. It's not a super-conscious choice. It is not a good one. And I can remember thinking and the words were what used to bring you joy. And what used to bring joy was karate. And so I look I was aware of because I've always had an interest, I was still going to tournaments around here. But then, I joined the dojo, and it was funny because, gosh, the first six months, maybe even longer, I would be the one out by a side door, literally on my knees just sleeping in the air, I was so out of shape. It just took more than weeks, it took months to get back into it, but I can see him prove it and see him prove it. And stayed until Sensei called me out. And of course, he would be very kind, it was the right decision, my stubbornness is the one that I would have, I would have gone there and bowed out four or five times up there and gone back in. But yeah, that's kind of how that happened. I had to get out of myself. And that was a healthy mentally and physically way to do so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I want to talk about a little bit in that in that year, for a moment, because you're talking about one of the most tragic things that a person can experience. And you had a history of applying some less-than-ideal coping mechanisms. And you didn't go there? Well, it didn't relapse. But from what I understand of talking to folks who are in recovery, that voice never goes away, and that temptation is never fully gone.
Maddie Madison:
Oh, never.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And so something is interesting in there for me where you chose not to do that when let's face it, there are probably very few people in the world who would have judged you harshly for relapsing at that moment and instead went to something else that you used to do to do being karate.
Maddie Madison:
I think that's basically it because I know myself. And I had gone through this once before, we're things just got overwhelmed. So, I definitely 100% seriously thought about it. My, drug of choice was coke. And I didn't do coke but, by the gram, I mean, I was also a supplier. So I cooked by the ounces. And I remember my thoughts were, well, if I drink, I'll do coke. And if I do coke, I'll do, I'll drink. And that's what would go in my head. And it was like, just go too well, that s*cks. Because that goes to, I will be in jail, or I will be dead. There was no third choice on that. And that's what got me out of it, especially after the suicide. I definitely struggled with that. But what was that going to search? That might have worked for a day, a few hours? I'm not sure because I didn't do it. But I for sure went there. And knock on wood. I mean, I didn't. And I think martial arts play a lot in that as far as just having that kind of mindset. Because I've always been a health nut.
Again, I had mentioned earlier that my father had me on tennis courts when I was old enough to drag a rack and not eat meal pickers. And I didn't have a choice. I had to play tennis. When I was with my father and [0:34:16-0:34:19]. Seven days a week, at three o'clock in the afternoon, every day because that was his thing. And I did it. I enjoyed it. But then of course, there were times, especially when you're a young teenager, you want to do other things. I want to have to be home at three o'clock and play tennis at that. And I remember my biggest goal when I was young as I want to beat this guy, and that didn't happen till the guy was maybe 15 years older. So I mean, whereas good enough because that was good. I mean that it played for 70 years.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But that's still pretty young.
Maddie Madison:
Well, I got good. I mean
Jeremy Lesniak:
That sounds good.
Maddie Madison:
I went to Vermont with a tennis camp. So again, they drilled that in the two so I was what they called it back then the US LTA, United States Long Tennis Association is now called the USDA. I was in that program, playing tournaments all over. So I was a hotshot. So I thought as a hotshot that it might be one time again when I was young, I'm down in Florida, and I was on a public court, I was just practicing and this old guy, well, guess what, I am now old person. But anyway, 75 years old, asked me if I wanted to play. And I remember thinking, oh, shoot, I want to play some old fart. You don’t know who it was. But you'll be in kind? right? Okay. Oh, no, I'll entertain you, play some tennis with you. And I used to love the rest of the net. And I had a pretty good serve. This guy destroyed me, scrutiny, and hardly moved. I mean, he had to take a step.
I'm running around and resonating that you'd love him. And I remember afterward is like what just happened? Who are you? He says, Well, he was the Florida 75 and under state champion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And he knew where the ball was going. Experience over.
Maddie Madison:
A great experience that we'll get that he played me like a little puppet. And then he is humbling
Jeremy Lesniak:
We do.
Maddie Madison:
I do, anyway.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I do too
Maddie Madison:
Several times in my life
Jeremy Lesniak:
Was there anything that flowed back and forth from tennis to karate, for you? Did you see them as distinctly separate or was there an overlap?
Maddie Madison
I think separate. The tennis again, I was more or less, I don't like to badmouth my father. But I mean, if he would have encouraged me more instead of forcing me, I would have gotten so much more out of it. I wouldn't have had the resemblance I had. And I think it would have been a much better player also. I was born and just enough, just [0:37:49-0:37:50].
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've heard the name
Maddie Madison:
Of Okinawan Credit podcast.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. Yeah.
Maddie Madison:
You've had him on your show.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No.
Maddie Madison:
You did
Jeremy Lesniak:
We did?
Maddie Madison:
I think I am pretty sure you did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
All right. This is where having these many episodes. Sometimes my mind fails me.
Maddie Madison:
Almost positive. You did. But anyway, I had discovered him. This is after I started listening to y'all. Y'all love that. I discovered that because I've always been fascinated with Okinawa and I am still whipped as a matter of fact. And I heard a couple of his podcasts and he would just kind of mention why I'm from a small town. And then he one time, he might say something like, I'm from a small town in Pennsylvania that nobody's ever, ever heard of. And I remember thinking, geez, I just wonder because I actually born in my house and my bedroom. My father was a doctor. And we didn't have a hospital in the whole county. And anyway, the little town where was born and raised was called [0:39:06-0:39:07]. It means where you rivers me. And it turns out that on one of his podcasts he had mentioned that was like, wow, what's the chances of that?
So I exchanged an email just to introduce myself. And of course, I think there's probably a 30-year difference between us. But when I grew up in [0:39:29-0:39:30] Pennsylvania. There was one red light in the whole county. And you're talking to a county, there's only one school you went to you. I went to one kindergarten. It has benefits. I mean, the closeness is amazing. But ever since I was very small. All I dreamed thought about was going out to see the world. I couldn't wait until I was 18 to leave home. And it just baffles me that's not the way kids nowadays. And I did. I moved to Montana, there for many years, and lived there until there was a recession. I mean, you couldn't get a job shining shoes. I own the house. I bought a house in Montana. I actually went down to, like an office supply store in Missoula, and gave that house away. I put it to sell, but of course, there's a recession. And a friend of mine had a wife and a couple of kids. It's like, how the house>
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow, why you were leaving Missoula?
Maddie Madison:
Over because I knew I went to Florida, where my mom had lived that's where Mom and Dad would exchange this. There were five weeks in the family. And so I was comfortable there. And you always worked in Florida. 1000 people a month I think moved to Florida and always have was always building and that's what I did. So I went to Florida and I regrouped. I got back on my feet. And of course, my dream was as soon as I soon as things get better. I'm outta here. I mean, I'm done with the East Coast.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How long did you say?
Maddie Madison:
Three years. And I took two styles down here. I took Goju Ryu and [0:41:45-0:41:46]. He was a very, very strange style.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It is different. And for folks listening, I suspect you all either know what [0:41:57-0:41:58] is? Or you've never heard of it. It has pockets. And there's actually a pocket in New England where it's very strong. So I'm familiar with it because of that.
Maddie Madison:
Well, I took it from a guy named Rick Bart. And he actually went to Japan, it was the first American to win an old championship there. I went there to his original dojo, he had his mentor from Japan, who couldn't speak he couldn't even say hello in English. I remember walking in there, introducing myself to a guy take a baseball bat, and start smacking himself on the skin, full force [0:42:40-0:42:45], that was kind of my introduction as
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're thinking what am I got myself into?
Maddie Madison:
What am I getting myself into it? Of course, [0:42:53-0:42:54] was about body conditioning. They still smack each other by sticking things into [0:43:01-0:43:02]. And so I took that and waited, you really originally didn't have any Katas, And then they had one or two, but the system didn't have Katas originated. So I stuck with him for almost two years. And then I went to oppose your case. And then I got out of Florida. That's when I moved to Colorado. But, I'll never forget that guy with a baseball bat score like, and that's supposed to make me want to just like here, Sign me up. Well, I did so well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because you started training in the 60s when maybe that was not but it was part of the culture.
Maddie Madison:
Like I've always prided myself that if you can play the piano, I wanted to soak in I and I think that came. The only president I ever had an interest in was John F. Kennedy. And Kennedy encourages that kind of thinking that you can do anything and I still think that way. I might not get many past chopsticks. But if I want to play the piano, I can play the piano if I want to learn how to play the trumpet or anything else If I want to do it, I can do this. And that has served me very well in my life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
One of the common threads you listen to the show. So this when we have people whose career isn't martial arts, that they didn't train and then go off and find some way of making money with martial arts that they have, let's say a more conventional job or even an unconventional job. Almost all of them will say that martial arts provided a toolkit that they could draw from for that. So when you talk about trying these new things being able to do anything you set your mind to? How much of that comes from your time as a martial artist?
Maddie Madison:
I think the majority of it is that can-do attitude. I mean, I've just, I believe, and that saying that winners never quit and quitters never win. And that has served me very well. For the most part, it just hasn't I still have that attitude. And I don't think I've mentioned I've had five back surgeries.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, we haven't talked about that.
Maddie Madison:
That's five back surgeries. I had, no, this was one of my, I think that's what started my adventure into drugs and alcohol intensified. Because of back surgeries, first of all, every one of mine anyway, takes a minimum of six months to read. When I say six months, I mean, you're not driving you're at, I can remember in the house here going outside with a walker, and walking in maybe 1520 feet. And that's it. The next day, I'd say well, I can go five steps more, do not aim for the corner. With me, it takes an awfully long time to come back. I've had three sets of rods in my back, I currently have four rods that have to go up either side of my spine for my Ts, which is up between the shoulders, all the way down to my hips. And then I got to go to a 45-degree angle from about L four or five into your hips, which is amazing surgery when you think about it. And my attitude then of course was what sure beats being heart holding the cup out your donations. But during my first back surgery, I was in the hospital. I didn't leave the hospital for two and a half, three months. I mean, it was just, it's s*ck..
Jeremy Lesniak:
I can think of other words to use but none of them are as appropriate.
Maddie Madison:
Had the attitude that I'm getting my job to get better. That's what my job that's my and. That was what I wanted to do, of course, but what a slow recovery. And then my second back surgery was a couple of months after being out of the hospital, then I was good enough to where he wanted me to go. You do physical therapy. And I went to physical therapy for about I don't know maybe about a month. And all I would do is the [0:48:07-0:48:10] just really simple for people who haven't had that very simple, mundane thing. And the very first day the physical therapist, said, Well, we're gonna ride a stationary bike. Like okay, walked me over, and I got on the stationary bike going around and around with the pedals.
And when I got done, it was like, I don't know, five minutes. So remember my go-to bike. He was taking me back over to the match. And another thing that we did was polish the sides which take the pressure off. Anyway, after I got off the bike I remember I kind of turned around and looked nice that just hurt me. And I had herniated two more disks and the very next day I was back in That's when I had my back my second back surgery. But that just hurt me. So right now got let's see, I've got four rods. I got a metal plate up my T's. And I've got five fusions and, in fusions where you have a choice. Of course, I didn't have a choice. The doctors sometimes take fusions, they take bone from cadavers. For me, they took they take it off your hip now, and all I can say is that if you ever watch a Baxter via YouTube, you'll be darned glad you're not conscious. They just literally bend you over a sheepskin, and I've got a scar from my shoulder blades down to my knees.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I would imagine you'd have more than one scar.
Maddie Madison:
Well, no, I remember going to certain they went to the same place and three were the same surgeon and he retired and one of his partners did another. I remember saying, why don't you just put some Velcro on this? You cue me to open it up and, you're doing all this stuff. But I am so thankful, so grateful because here I am visiting, whining, and doing things but not like other people, but I've never liked other people.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do what you can to make the best of what you have.
Maddie Madison:
I'm just delighted because the other side of the coin is horrible. That's when I mentioned earlier that I was about drinking or drugging. I wasn't able to fight that and I wasn't innocent of that. But I mean, that's what really got me into after five of these things. Again, it takes months to recuperate from these things. You don't get out of the hospitals. Okay. [0:51:16-0:51:17] not using walkers and walkers, the canes. It’s having that people busy. Yes. It's very humbling.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm thankful I haven't been there. But I'm also wondering, was there you use the word humbled? You know that it was good for you to be humbled at various points in your life. Would that be one of them?
Maddie Madison:
Oh, absolutely. I know I got a big ego. And I think a lot of guys, it's just the way I'm putting it together. And of course, again in tennis. I'm going to bump from that to a tennis camp. I'm playing tournaments over Dartmouth College and stuff and I'm going to New York, so I'm going all over playing the tennis. I was at that level. I was and I still am. I was always my worst enemy. I was a jerk in tennis before John McEnroe, or there was a tennis term before McEnroe. His name was [0:52:29-0:52:30], who also had a matter of fact, made John McEnroe look like an angel. That was me. I was my own worst enemy if I would double fought once or twice. I used to break for tennis rackets and I wish I had some of the tennis rackets. In front of a crowd. I just after a couple of doubles [0:52:53-0:52:54]. I find a pole wrapped around the pillow storm off the remote court. And I think the last record I ever broke. I had an older brother. He was nine years older than me and he was a tennis instructor at this camp. And he had gone away for the weekend. Overnight when it was his cabin. He let me borrow his tennis racket I'll never forget it was called a Pat Davis Silver Streak. Do you ladies play with tad Davis rackets that have a Silver Streak? This is a beautiful racket. And he let me borrow up to the tournament. And I wrapped it around a pole, which is what I did back in those days. And when he got back on his camera Chip, I think I hid for two days. Everybody of course knew that Doug is just like, I can't fix my brother, pat racket. Right. Oh, why?
I think you know that. I think that's equal, somewhat. But I like to be humbled. I think it's just a good lesson. Puts you in your place, like playing the old guy on the tennis court that destroyed me. Here I am years. Good g*d that was six years ago. And I still remember that. Like, wow, I destroyed myself.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So audience just in case, something feels abrupt here. I lost the internet. And so we had I had to deal with that. But we're back. When you think about your time as a karateka as a martial artist, inevitably most of us are going to think, historically. But we're also going to think what am I doing now? What do I want to do? Right? We kind of think of this, this ongoing process of this for most of us very strong thread throughout our lives. What do you think? Think about the future. Are there you when you talked about the different styles you've trained in? You've spoken very positively and it sounds like you've enjoyed experimenting and trying new things within martial arts. Is that something that's that you're looking at? Or are there other things that maybe excite you about tomorrow?
Maddie Madison:
What kinds of things excite me, I love embracing new things. When I lose somebody like a bicycle rider or different things, because of injuries and health problems, I always replace them with that something I always have knock-on-wood. I've always entertained the thought that I would like to work with kids for free. Not a whole bunch. I'd like to have maybe two or three serious kids who really want to learn, but I'm scared to death of COVID. And all I think about is when I think about that just brings me joy. There's a sight here. And maybe it's all over the United States are not that computer literate. It's called the neighborhood. And it's just these little mountain communities like I live in a place called kindred. It's only a couple of hundred people here. No red lights, no government, we have a general store and everybody has to go to the post-op, there are no moving mountains, manufactured nearest grocery stores, a couple of towns over. And I love it. But anyway, there's a website. I learned about it about two years ago. It's called a neighborhood and it's just these mountain communities. And people use it to complain, to sell things, to brag, to pitch like right now. It's a magical time of the year, it's right in the middle of the debating season for elk. And they're bugling. I mean, you can't I go outside and within five minutes, you're gonna hear one beautiful, and I can stand here at my house. Well, that's down at the park that's over here. You can just tell by the echo. And I can't describe and most people don't know, they'll be able to sound like to me, it's magic. And so, no, I got off on a tangent here. Bring me back here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's okay. Well, we have one here in Vermont called front porch forum. I know other areas of the country have one called next door that they're around. And yes, there's a lot of complaining on there. But you were talking about the idea of teaching children and I wonder, were you thinking about?
Maddie Madison:
I think next door is the main thing here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Maddie Madison:
Anyway, I think about like my work with the kids at school. I always got two colds, at least two, and I hate colds. I boys. I think I'm joking. But I've always said that I'd rather fracture a bone, I would definitely take sutures over having to deal with the cold because it's just five days of your life so I don't have the time for and you can't do anything about it. And that was this part of the kids starting to class was always three quarters I might get on my knees and I'd have to put their belt on Tiger built some of you even had to type your type of key and then the kids they don't think anything of having a runny nose and right well are right and not turning their heads. I mean, of course, I got sick. And that's what that means? Well being afraid of COVID and having herpes needs puts me at a high-risk thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But you could do something over zoom.
Maddie Madison:
I don't know. Again with little kids. I don't know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Not with the little ones
Maddie Madison:
Well I'm doing stuff with myself with Zoom and that's you and that's enough for now. But that's just want to say that I think it just would be enjoyable and it’s still a [0:59:24-0:59:25].
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you have a favorite Kata?
Maddie Madison:
I've always been intrigued and the first time they ever saw it. The Hachi I've always been intrigued by it because it looks so simple. I remember the first time by but Sensei did it, you know he showed the class, and as I said this is I'm gonna learn that Kata. I'm gonna skip it. Kusanku and everything else and I just thought that was a Kata. And then I read because I love to read and they used to teach the school kids in Japan and that just put in my mind the simplicity, that simple.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I once heard a friend and I would quote him, but I think I'm gonna butcher it a little bit to say that everything he ever needed from a Kata he found in a hunch and or, to folks who may not recognize that name, Teiki
Maddie Madison:
Right? That'd be the Shotokan version, I guess.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a lot in there.
Maddie Madison:
Like if you look referred to it, I referred to it like you're on a cliff, right behind you. That's your death. Yet, the one I really enjoy is, you're in an elevator, you're in a small elevator because you're not moving. And of course, I would always be trained and know you to keep the stance and you're in close quarters. I love that Kata for some reason. It took me the hardest one for me to learn. The hardest to prolong is because it's not really hard. Kusanku just because of all the st**id moves, and doing it with a little bit of a brain injury is really silly. I can laugh at myself, but I mean, I just some days I can go through it. Other times it's like, I'll get samosas, I'll look at the person who's been trained as I forgot to three moves. And you forgot quite a few.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a long form. And there are a lot of interesting directional changes. It was my competition form for many, many years.
Maddie Madison:
It's a lot of that I really enjoy most popular. Three big tournaments out here in Colorado. And I always have gone to on my map and you're almost 40 years now. One of them we didn't have two years ago when COVID was here to have any tournaments. And they only had one of them last year. And it's called the friendship cup. And I remember I used to go I've actually competed in the friendship cup a couple of times before I stopped competing. There be 500 people, I mean, people come from Texas, come all over. And of course, as years go by, I got less and less, but I went to the offensive cup and I only went there for about an hour and a half. And I never saw the college. So it was in the wrong auditorium. And I never did get the seats. I stood up in the back and like on a balcony and I watched it because again, I'm scared to death of this COVID thing. Because of the hard things and it's just it is what it is. But I went through that. And then one of my favorite ones is the one that Cynthia, his name is Cynthia Gurbani has enough a wild card tournament. And people from Japan come over for that, but after the friendship Cup, they're both in April friendship cup was always first within this other one. And they just say nothing the second year that I couldn't have that. And sadly one of my very best friends. Since Cynthia Gurbani is now about 81 years old. [1:03:44-1:03:45]. I love him dearly. I have celebrated my last 11 or 12 birthdays with this man and his wife. I did Thanksgiving and Christmas exchange sadly in January he took a group of students from this dojo and went to a big tournament down in Las Vegas. Came back and two weeks later he died of COVID. That just disturbed me. So healthy. his name is Adrian and Adrian was the fifth down. Just the nicest guy in the whole world. Matter of fact, it's funny, his wife had offered, what would you like for memorabilia? I had one of those gumps.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's it. That's a huge honor.
Maddie Madison:
Well, I missed that, especially as my birthday was in July, especially July hit me. And of course, Thanksgiving coming up because last Thanksgiving, about a week before, two weeks before we went to an Outback Steakhouse, a big house. And usually, he and his wife, and I would have dinners at least once a month year-round. We always went to the same Mexican restaurant as [1:05:24-1:05:25]. And it was always the three of us sometimes the four because his wife has a twin sister. But once every few months, you ever just be him and I. Thank goodness about a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving, you and I ended up going to this. And I've got a picture of that. So and I treasured that because, again, super, super close, never trained with the guy. My Sensei was Adrian’s best friend. They grew up together at the Cynthia your buddies don't do when they were young teenagers. And he would go to Japan and this is serious stuff but for some reason. He and I just hit it off. And for many years, exchange Christmas business before.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Those martial arts friendships are something that it certainly happens outside of the martial arts. But I think the best friendships really do come from some manner of common ground and then when you grow up, maybe not with someone but knowing that they had another element of their upbringing that made them who they are, like, martial arts there are you get to skip a few steps in a friendship and it creates such a strong bond.
Maddie Madison:
Like, on the occasion that it takes. Again, there's a very high dropout rate. I mean, who what, quote, normal, personalized to some. I'm probably gonna get a bloody nose. If I stayed for a few years and a good chance I'm going to break something, or are you going to wish you did? But like you said, it builds. I mean, gosh, when I think about the half a business, my life right now today, there are karate people. And a few of them a lady I went and had dinner with on Saturday is one of the parents of the kids in the schools. It was funny. At Christmas time. I'd get more Christmas gifts than Sensei would because I was the one that was always teaching the kids once you found out I can handle it. It was I like being late, and late coming to [1:07:47-1:07:48]. I took the class and I loved it. I just absolutely loved it. It brings me joy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thank you for your stories. This has been great. I appreciate you coming on. And, you know
how we end this here. It's your chance. What do you want to leave the audience with today?
Maddie Madison:
I like to leave the audience. My main message would be is if you really enjoy, whether it be karate or anything else, don't let age or injury stop you from doing it. You may not be able to do it at the level you left because of an injury or illness. But you can still do it. I mean, I could probably still hit a tennis ball. I can't run for I'm not going to die for it. I'm not going to rush the net. But I guess swinging a racket, I don't. But you know I took up a disc golf by many people know that is because we labeled a Frisbee. And I took that up because a gal who's only about 14 years old took me up to play one day. And I think the second or third hole I looked at just the distance they use this much more regular frisbee ever looked at says what are you buying these things? And I was playing Disc Golf two or three times. I just loved it until I started throwing my shoulder out and stuff. I still play it. Don't let anyone take your lesson. I take that lesson from the back surgeries. I have choices. I can sit around feeling sorry for myself. I can't do this anymore. But you can say well, what can I do? And that's got me a long way in life. I think that would be my message. You can always do something.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's no secret. I think martial arts are an option in almost every situation. You can apply an element of martial arts training to most problems. Today's episode, though, illustrates how powerful and effective those tools can be. And I was honored that Maddie was willing to be so open and so vulnerable about these things that she's experienced. I hope you out there your listeners recognize that. Not everybody is willing to go this deep means a lot when they will. Maddie, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for everything. I appreciate it. Head on over to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Sign up for the newsletter. If you want, you can throw us a couple of bucks. There's a PayPal donation button over there. And every single episode we've ever done, there are other ways you can support us if that's of interest, sharing episodes, leaving reviews, telling friends, contributing to Patreon, and more. Hey, you know, I'd love to come to your school as a teacher's seminar. Is that of interest to you? Let me know. We'll figure out what we can do. We've got the code PODCAST15 to buy stuff. Don't forget that. And if you have feedback, guest suggestions, topic suggestions, or other stuff. Let me know jeremy@whistlekick.com. Our social media it's @whistlekick. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.