Episode 1017 - Martial Things with Sifu Watson
In this episode join Andrew in a new series called Martial Things. This week he sits down and chats with Sifu Stephen Watson with a plan to talk about……. nothing. No plan, just a conversation to see where it takes them. Taking a break, student retention and music with martial arts are all discussed.
Martial Things with Sifu Watson - Episode 1017
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Andrew Adams and Sifu Stephen Watson explore the themes of breaks in martial arts training, the importance of maintaining engagement, and the human connections that underpin martial arts practice. They discuss the reasons students may take breaks, the challenges of returning, and the significance of staying connected through various means.
The conversation emphasizes the need for understanding and support within the martial arts community, particularly during times of personal challenges or plateaus in training. They explore the challenges faced by martial artists, particularly the phenomenon of plateauing at the brown belt level. They discuss how this can lead to students seeking new directions in their training.
Lastly, they also delve into the intriguing connection between martial arts and music, examining how music can enhance learning and memory in martial arts education. They reflect on the importance of creativity in teaching and the role of music in evoking emotions and fostering connections among students.
TAKEAWAYS
Taking breaks can be essential for recovery and personal growth.
Engagement can be maintained through alternative methods during breaks.
Understanding student perspectives is crucial for retention.
Communication and connection are key in martial arts teaching.
Plateaus in training can lead to disengagement.
It's important to own the choices made regarding training.
Digital communication can help maintain relationships with students.
Encouraging small commitments can ease the return to training.
Many students plateau just before black belt and stop training.
Music can enhance the learning experience in martial arts classes.
There is a notable correlation between musicians and martial artists.
Teaching martial arts through music can create deeper connections with students.
Music evokes emotions that can transcend language barriers.
Learning through music can aid in memory retention.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Context
03:16 The Importance of Breaks in Martial Arts
08:21 Understanding Student Perspectives on Breaks
13:19 Maintaining Engagement During Breaks
17:50 The Human Connection in Martial Arts Training
21:45 Addressing Plateaus in Training
22:54 The Brown Belt Blues
24:45 Plateaus and New Directions in Training
27:10 The Connection Between Martial Arts and Music
33:05 Teaching Martial Arts Through Music
39:25 The Role of Music in Learning and Memory
45:08 Creative Musings in Martial Arts
To reach Sifu Stephen Watson:
somedayfarm.org
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section down below!
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Andrew Adams (03:03.989)
Welcome you're listening or watching to another episode of whistle kick martial arts radio And my name is Andrew Adams and I'm joined by Sifu Steven Watson. How are you today? Yeah Well, we're here to just have some fun but before we get there Although I don't know if it's possible to have more fun. We're gonna have so much fun I can't even get into it But we have to put that on pause because I want to make sure all of our listeners
Stephen Watson (03:14.992)
Yay! Hello!
Andrew Adams (03:32.467)
and watchers, if you're watching us on YouTube, certainly if you are hit like and subscribe. We always want to share this with other friends as well. But I want to make sure that you know all the stuff that we do at whistle. Obviously we make up this podcast. We sell apparel. We sell gear. We sell books. We host events throughout the country. There is so much stuff that we have available and you can find it all at whistlekick.com.
Now this show, the podcast itself has its own website, whistlekickmarshallarchradio.com. And you can go there to find show notes and transcripts and extra photos. And you'll also find at the very top, a new button that says subscribe. We have a new, a new newsletter that is specific for martial arts radio. And you'll get notified when episodes come out. we have your first thing you'll do is you've got a free book. but you'll also, we're going to start.
Stephen Watson (04:16.619)
Yeah
Andrew Adams (04:31.659)
throwing out some behind the scenes things. And so that's where you're going to want to be to get everything that we do for martial arts radio. So Sifu, I definitely detect a little rasp in your voice today.
Stephen Watson (04:47.393)
Yeah, I'm recovering from an illness, which is quite an unusual circumstance for me, but it's what happened. And I can say that it sounds pretty ragged, but I'm not in any pain or discomfort. just sounds it's probably about 80 % better than yesterday. Yesterday was just a tiny whisper. And it was like that for about a week. So
This is my podcast best voice.
Andrew Adams (05:17.805)
You know, it's deeper, it's raspier, it would be good for like a whistle kick after dark episode. So we are here to just hang out. So I was telling you before we started recording that my thought was to, my plan was to have no plans.
Stephen Watson (05:27.136)
Whistlekick late night. For all you black belts in the black of night.
Andrew Adams (05:47.799)
to just have some martial musings, just sit down and talk martial arts and you are someone with whom we've done this in the past, whether it's been recorded or not. And I thought, you know what, let's get together and hang out. And we often think alike as is shown by the fact that we're both wearing the same t-shirt today. So that was my plan. My plan was to have no plan.
Stephen Watson (05:58.544)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (06:09.112)
We certainly are.
Stephen Watson (06:16.279)
Okay. So why don't I start since there's no plan with asking you a question. What is a good reason to take a break from the martial arts?
Andrew Adams (06:22.423)
Sure. Yeah, why not?
Love it.
Andrew Adams (06:32.935)
that's, that is, there are, there can be many. I mean, I'm, I have one right now. I mean, I had surgery on my ankle. and one could make the argument that I, I've taken a break from physical training, but I haven't necessarily taken a break from martial arts. mean, I'm, I'm still listening to other martial arts podcasts, not just whistle kick, but other, other podcasts as well.
Stephen Watson (06:37.272)
Uh-huh.
Stephen Watson (06:41.376)
your ankle.
Stephen Watson (06:50.637)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (06:58.469)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (07:00.685)
Um, so I am doing other martial things, but I'm, certainly in the conventional sense. Uh, I've taken a break from training. Um, and I think it's important that we allow our bodies to heal. Um, you know, obviously my example is fairly, uh, I don't want to say serious, but like it's a, it's, I had surgery, like I, yeah. Yeah.
Stephen Watson (07:07.971)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (07:23.396)
It's fairly straightforward too. Like, you know, you're going to have surgery, you're going to be out for six weeks or whatever they say. that, you know, yeah.
Andrew Adams (07:30.187)
Yep. And, and so it was pretty cut and dry. Like I could not put any weight on my foot for six weeks. And, know, I'm now, I'm now able to walk in air quotes walk. I need a cane. have to have a special boot on. you know, I'm not, I'm certainly not fully a hundred percent mobile and I probably won't be a hundred percent for another few, few months at least.
Stephen Watson (07:38.551)
Right.
Stephen Watson (07:56.856)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (07:59.541)
So, I mean, that's certainly one.
Stephen Watson (07:59.713)
I kind of think that, I mean, certainly, you my question is, when do you take a break? And we could start with, well, what counts as a break? you know, like, if you're listening to podcasts and writing about it and stretching your wrists while you're in the boot, you know, is that a break? Or is it? I kind of feel like among students, let's say, we have what we might be considered what we might consider to be a student.
Andrew Adams (08:08.908)
Sure.
Stephen Watson (08:28.394)
And then we have what we might consider to be a martial artist. Like, and the martial artists are fewer and farther between. It's what I expect everybody to be. I expect them all to fall in love with it and devote their lives like me. But then the reality is, no, I'm a bit of a geek for this and I'm going to be a rarity in the mix, like you. But I think for the martial artist, they can't stop.
Andrew Adams (08:32.021)
Hmm. Yeah, fair.
Andrew Adams (08:41.376)
You
Andrew Adams (08:48.13)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (08:57.837)
Mm.
Stephen Watson (08:58.6)
Right. It will look different. You're in surgery. And so now you're exploring meditation and stretching and, reading some biographies of martial artists and are watching a class and not participating physically. And I think for the person who's not a martial artist, but you know, there are students there, they're in the mix, stopping or taking a break is as natural as it would be unnatural for me to stop.
Andrew Adams (09:12.834)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (09:28.033)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (09:28.753)
Like I can't if I have a day off, right? If I have a day off, I wake up, get bathroom, take a shower, stretch out and have my coffee. And then I'm just like, I wish a student was here. Like I wish I wish I had a class I can go to right now. Like, I want to write this, I got to get this off my chest or let me let me work on that. got and you know, and then the whole day goes by, you know, and that's my day off. You know, I'm just filled with
Andrew Adams (09:54.605)
Yeah, exactly.
Stephen Watson (09:58.138)
there's so much to test and to explore and to return to and start practicing again or wrestle with or, or, you know, do some more scholarly research on or whatever. And then, and I'm not unhappy, right? I, I recognize that somebody looking at me from the outside will think, well, you're not really doing the day off that you thought you'd have a picnic and go to the movies. I'm like, I don't know this.
Andrew Adams (10:24.449)
Hmm. Yeah.
Stephen Watson (10:28.273)
it's still, it feels like exactly how I'm supposed to live my life. This is, this is what's most important, you know. So, so I'm glad to hear your thoughts on on that taking break. I think that we often hear that as teachers, we hear the idea of taking a break and we marshal our resources to argue against it, you know, like, I don't want to lose a student, like, and I give you all the arguments and
Andrew Adams (10:33.164)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (10:53.204)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (10:57.949)
describe all the stories of past teachers who stopped and never returned. And so I can feel that I'm ready to make those arguments. But I think there's probably wisdom in the taking a break to I just don't know that that would be for me. For me, it wouldn't be taking a break, it would just be changing how I train, like you're describing for yourself.
Andrew Adams (11:21.057)
Yeah. I would say, think the most common reason that students, so we're going to talk students and we'll, you know, we'll take people like you and I out of, and, and, likely probably a lot of our listenership, right? We'll, we'll take them out for a second, but for students, I think the most common reason to take a break usually has to do with either a going through something incredibly stressful or
Stephen Watson (11:30.078)
Yeah, fair.
Stephen Watson (11:48.925)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (11:50.541)
time management and, it could be, they just don't have the time. I mean, I remember, uh, when I was a man managing a, used to manage a very high end chocolate factory. Uh, I didn't manage the factory. managed the shipping department, but I worked normally during the regular time of the year. I'd work, you know, 40, 45 hours a week. But when it came to Christmas time, I was working 80 plus hours a week and.
Stephen Watson (11:52.412)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (12:02.086)
Yup.
the shipping, remember.
Stephen Watson (12:18.535)
Right.
Andrew Adams (12:20.747)
Could I have found an hour in a day to get some work training in? I could, but I was exhausted. I was wiped out. And so, you know, that was one example for me, but I think just in general, either someone doesn't have the, they don't have the time. I'm putting that in air quotes because, you know, they, are prioritizing something else more. or, they're going through something really, really stressful.
Stephen Watson (12:25.465)
Yeah. Wiped out. Yeah.
Stephen Watson (12:38.205)
Sure.
Stephen Watson (12:48.868)
Well, let's look at that prioritization. The the the Christmas season with chocolates, right? You had a choice to make. And the choice was busy season, devote myself to the career, make the overtime, you know, that sort of this is when the money is there, you know, so it's a conscious decision to relax the training or pull back for that reason. So that's
Andrew Adams (13:02.317)
Hmm?
Andrew Adams (13:15.437)
And it was even more so than that. I was salaried. I didn't make any extra money working those extra hours. But if I didn't work those hours, I would have lost my job. So the priority for me was I need to keep my job.
Stephen Watson (13:21.444)
Uh-huh.
Stephen Watson (13:26.441)
Right, right, right.
Stephen Watson (13:30.583)
Right. And I think what's important is that people are conscious about those decisions, and that they don't sort of blame them on something else external circumstances. Somebody made me somebody expected me. And it's like, No, no, you made this choice, given your information. And I'm not faulting you for the choice. I'm just I want you to own it your choice. And that might happen for you every Christmas season, you made that same choice. And, and that's fine.
but you could have, for example, planned an hour three times a week to practice at home. But maybe the second year you realized, even if I plan that by the time I get home and I have an hour, I just collapse or I need to eat something and the time is gone. And then you you're better equipped to make those time management decisions next time, even if they're not different decisions. Sometimes something happens to us.
Andrew Adams (14:13.964)
Yep. Yep.
Stephen Watson (14:28.89)
somebody falls sick or, you know, their job, you know, sort of changes, you have to move out of state, or there's a big tumult in your family, and there's a divorce or something like that. And it's reasonable that people have to pull back from training or stop or pause. But even then, I like it to be a more conscious decision and say, how do I start to look forward to training again, even though
Andrew Adams (14:51.49)
Mm.
Stephen Watson (14:56.695)
The short term looks really chaotic and I can't see around the bend, which is fine. How do I maintain some training at home? How do I think about finding a new teacher when I moved to Kansas or something? All that stuff is there too often people I think, kind of blame the circumstances which are difficult and sudden and tragic and life altering and
it sort of becomes this excuse to stop training. And sometimes all people need is one more little excuse and the scale tips and now they don't train. There's somebody who once did karate when they were in high school. And we know a lot of people who they did karate when they were a kid and that's great. But man, can you try and stay with it? Yeah, please.
Andrew Adams (15:27.149)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (15:32.232)
Exactly.
Andrew Adams (15:40.383)
Mm-hmm. Yep.
Andrew Adams (15:49.141)
Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I've definitely had conversations with students and not just martial arts students, drumming students as well, who have said they need to take a break or whatever. And I always am understanding and that's fine. I certainly don't want to hold anyone against their will. not going to kidnap you to keep you as a student. Right. But I always try and impress upon them. Doing something is better than doing nothing.
Stephen Watson (16:11.681)
Right.
Stephen Watson (16:19.638)
Yes. Yes.
Andrew Adams (16:19.903)
regardless of what that something is. sometimes that's something like I had a martial arts student that, you know, was needed to take a break. He had some some personal health things going on with his family. And I gave him I said, OK, no problem. Like he said, I should only be a couple of months. said, OK, no problem. But here's what I would like for you to do. And you don't have to. This is your your choice. During those few months.
Stephen Watson (16:43.808)
during those few months. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (16:47.785)
I'm going to send you a podcast that I would like you to listen to. And it was like, it was every week. Here's one podcast that I, know, that I think you might get something out of it. And maybe you won't, maybe you won't, maybe you'll get nothing out of it, but, and you don't have to listen to it. can't force you to, but at least he was engaged in some sort of something with the school. Right. So he got an E got an email from me every week with here's something that you, that I can do.
Stephen Watson (16:50.614)
Great.
Stephen Watson (16:56.246)
Oh really? Oh that's cool.
Stephen Watson (17:11.902)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (17:17.165)
this week. And you know, he had a whole week to work on it. You know, podcast was about an hour or something like that. But that kept them engaged to some degree. coming back was a lot easier for them because they had stayed in touch. You know, and I've done the same sort of thing with drummers who have said, you know, I need to just take a break from the band. You know, they play in a band and, you know,
Stephen Watson (17:22.805)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (17:34.589)
Yes, yes.
Andrew Adams (17:46.507)
they're deciding they're going to take some time off. I you know what? I get it. Like there's a lot going on. You don't have time to do parades and you don't have time to come to practice and all of these. Okay, no problem. But how about just to keep your hands going, you know, once a week, send me a recording of you playing this tune. It will take you, it'll take you three minutes, right? Three minutes once a week.
Stephen Watson (17:53.972)
Yep.
Stephen Watson (18:00.393)
Right.
Stephen Watson (18:05.695)
So good.
So good.
Andrew Adams (18:10.733)
send me the recording and you know what I'll critique it I'll take five minutes out of my day I'll take three minutes to listen to it and I'll take two minutes to send you a message back saying this is what you did really well this is what you can do better it doesn't really cost me anything other than the five ten minutes maybe I certainly didn't charge them for it but it kept them it kept for them it kept their hands moving it kept their brain thinking thinking about drumming
Stephen Watson (18:18.685)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (18:35.218)
Yes.
Andrew Adams (18:37.695)
And so you can do the same sort of thing with a student who decides to take some time off.
Stephen Watson (18:43.428)
Yeah, I one of the things that I do, well, in the first case, what I was going to say is that in I've been doing this for like 40 years or something. And in the digital era, it is so possible for me to stay in touch with students who haven't studied with me for 30 years. And I can text them or LinkedIn or, you know, Facebook or whatever it might be.
And I will often just, think of them, I'll send them a little cartoon or a meme, or I'll just check in like, Hey, how you doing? Or, Hey, here's a picture I found from way back in the day. And, and on some level it's, it's marketing, right? It's like reminding them. And at some point when they're ready to come back or their granddaughter is, they're more connected to me and it's easier. And I'm aware that that's part of what I'm doing.
The other part is just being a human. are people I care about and it's nice to stay connected. But I probably send 30 a day a message of some kind to somebody. And sometimes it's kind of deep and sometimes it's just a general, are you and your wife doing? And sometimes it's I thought of you, here's a funny thing, but it's just trying to stay connected. And I think that's a wonderful
Andrew Adams (19:49.901)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (20:08.93)
aspect of the digital era. And I know that I'm consciously using it as this sort of extension of my business. But it feels very human. It's not quite the same as sending in a marketing email.
Andrew Adams (20:17.12)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (20:23.467)
Well, and I think I haven't done any research on this, but I feel like one of the greatest fears in life for everyone is the fear of not being accepted. And when you leave a school or you stop drumming or you stop doing whatever, the longer you're away, the harder it is to convince your brain that you're going to be accepted, right? That you, that you're allowed to come back.
Stephen Watson (20:43.056)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (20:50.405)
Yes.
Andrew Adams (20:52.937)
And those little messages do nothing more than just let them know that you're staying in touch with them and it's okay to come back. When I'm ready to come back, it's a good thing and I will be accepted.
Stephen Watson (20:52.975)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (21:00.838)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (21:05.072)
One of the hardest things for me as a teacher who's been doing it for decades is you'll be in the grocery store and you'll round the corner and you'll see a student from 15 years ago. And there's going to be a little hello. Okay, great to see you. You look healthy or whatever. But then I can sense that they feel ashamed or awkward or something.
And I want to just smother that and be like, No, no, I'm just saying hi. I'm not gonna remind you classes Wednesday night or slip you a coupon. I'm just a human being. Great to see you know where I am. But I can see that they feel like that might happen and they feel bad about how they left. And I can't help that I can't fix it. I can just say, Hey, you know me. I'm not the guy that gonna say, look at you. You look healthy enough to
Andrew Adams (21:41.605)
you
Andrew Adams (21:50.573)
Hmm.
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (22:00.707)
you know, pick up that case of water, why aren't you training, you know, I'm not going to do that. I'm not even thinking that. So that's it. That's a tough thing. Something I started doing, I think two years ago, I mean, maybe around COVID maybe, maybe, yeah, that sounds about right, maybe three years, I started. You'll see a student ready to step back, which in my mind, I catastrophize it. And I think it's
Andrew Adams (22:01.485)
You
Stephen Watson (22:29.216)
I will never see them again and everybody else will leave. Like that's what goes through my brain. But I know it's just, you know, they're moving on for, you know, their job changed, you know, whatever it is, or they have a new kid, something. And, and I wanted to create a bridge between the three times a week coming to class training, doing homework, and then maybe I see you again in 10 years when you find your way back.
Andrew Adams (22:32.715)
Mm.
Stephen Watson (22:57.422)
So I created like a check in class that's a paid online class, but it's very cheap. And there's no warm up. It's just click zoom and you're ready to move. I'm going to spend 30 minutes with you. Show me what you're doing. I'll give you a little feedback, a little correction. We'll have a little bit of checking in and we can do that every two months, every month, three times a year. So
Andrew Adams (23:03.501)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (23:27.031)
To me, it was trying to create some physical continuation that's very low sort of cost, not just money, but time and uniform and travel and all that. Just let me see you practice something you're doing. I'll give you a little corrections, just keep you moving, but I'm not gonna do all the warmups and every stretch and every, it's just really locked into that.
Andrew Adams (23:39.596)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (23:54.037)
And that feels like it's been a pretty good option for a few students that it certainly helps in terms of cash flow because there's a little bit coming from them. But mostly it's it's not just the idea of us being connected. They are still training and we're just finding like a different way to do it that they can fit into their lives.
Andrew Adams (24:10.241)
Yeah, they're staying engaged.
Andrew Adams (24:16.385)
Yep, yep, and they're staying engaged.
Stephen Watson (24:18.482)
Yeah, and that's work for a few students that have moved out of state. So that's their whole reason. You know, they can't physically be here. When we were just circling back here, when we were talking about reasons that people might step back or separate themselves from training or stop training, I was thinking one of the reasons that they do it.
is not so much that there's an injury or like a life change job or family, but they've they find themselves at a plateau. And it's not necessarily conscious, but they're not challenged or driven or rewarded or whatever it is, as frequently as they might have expected or gotten used to.
Andrew Adams (24:58.637)
Yep.
Stephen Watson (25:13.139)
And I think that's one of the reasons. I think that might go unmentioned, or it might be an unconscious thing for the teacher, it might be hard to notice. And for the student, it might be hard to notice. And yet they drift apart. And I think that would be a helpful thing to kind of check in like, have you been sort of stuck for I don't know how long long is but enough that it's a plateau, not a mountain.
Andrew Adams (25:20.994)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (25:35.777)
Mmm.
Stephen Watson (25:42.186)
And does that sort of stop meeting your satisfaction need in terms of training? And meanwhile, is something else in the world offering that the pickleball or whatever?
Andrew Adams (25:51.254)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. And I, yeah, and I've seen that often at, in, you know, most of the listeners will know my, you know, main background in training is in Okinawan styles of karate. So for us, it'd be Brown Belt. And, you know, we...
Stephen Watson (26:10.473)
And that translates as the best aisle in Japanese. I Okinawan is the best. I'm pretty sure.
Andrew Adams (26:14.163)
No, definitely does not. But, you know, we would call it the brown belt blues where, the number of students that would get to brown belt, which for those that aren't in the know is the belt right before a black belt. And they stop training because they plateau and they feel like they getting to the next level is going to be so much different. They're not getting there fast enough.
Stephen Watson (26:20.732)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (26:27.057)
Right at the end. Yep.
Andrew Adams (26:41.143)
You know, there's a great, a great quote that I remember from an interview of on whistle kick. couldn't tell you who it was that said it, but I loved it. And it was, it's better to look like a brown belt. It's better to be a brown belt that looks like a black belt than to be a black belt that looks like a brown belt. And that I like, I, I, I understand that philosophy and I like it, you know, I, but the problem is if that brown belt.
Stephen Watson (26:41.352)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (27:05.009)
Right.
Andrew Adams (27:08.157)
looks like a black belt for too long, they feel like they've plateaued, that you're right, that is a reason that they could leave.
Stephen Watson (27:15.688)
Yeah, yeah. And I also see in like, I wouldn't leave. But we're not always talking about the game martial arts, just the way I've kind of defined it today. I wouldn't. I'm happy on a plateau. I don't care. I just want to train. But I think also this is where people they don't think that they're leaving.
Andrew Adams (27:29.975)
Sure.
Stephen Watson (27:45.083)
They're just looking to expand themselves. And this is where they find themselves picking up another art or changing schools. So in their mind, the thread is that I'm still training, but you as their teachers, like, no, you left, you stopped training. You're doing, you know, nympho now or something. And I think sometimes the plateau can serve to inspire people to look further afield to meet their training.
Andrew Adams (27:52.301)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (28:15.27)
desires, I guess, which might not be bad. don't know. I just thinking through the question of stepping back from training. I think too that if you think of yourself as in Grand Central Terminal, let's say, so you're in a big crowd. If you step back from a given person,
you know, maybe they give you the creeps or just giving them room to get by, you know, whatever, they're taking a picture, you get out of it. You can't step away from any person without stepping towards other people. Right? And so I think it can be helpful for us to since we're on this topic of people stepping back is to recognize that they're very likely stepping towards something else.
Andrew Adams (28:56.141)
Mmm.
Stephen Watson (29:11.205)
that might point to healing or growth or deepening, whether that's learning how to become a teacher in the art or, you know, learning how to run a tournament or learning how to, you know, sell martial arts, you know, a kutraman, you know, whatever artwork or something. And I think that if we can remember that the martial arts is not
Andrew Adams (29:11.253)
Mm. Yep.
Stephen Watson (29:41.701)
fully represented by me. And so when somebody pulls away from me, like my classes, my schedule, my pricing, whatever, they might very well be moving towards a chance to coach kids or chance to open their own school or a chance to pick up archery or whatever the things are. And I think that can be that can be helpful to to recognize that away.
Andrew Adams (29:54.125)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (30:10.504)
likely because martial arts is so big away likely means towards new, you know,
Andrew Adams (30:17.389)
Yeah, yeah, and I see that. And in fact, that's happened to me, you know, like I've gone through that myself, you know, stepping away from something because I was interested in something else, right. And I think most people listening or watching can relate to some degree, whether it's martial arts or not, maybe something completely different. You know, we all have hobbies that we have gotten into and aren't involved in anymore, right.
Stephen Watson (30:24.364)
Yeah. huh.
Stephen Watson (30:46.017)
Yeah, I off topic. I think that you need to create a self defense combo. Like I'm thinking Kempo style, the guy punches and you do 37 things, you know, but to the rhythm of the Phil Collins drum solo.
Andrew Adams (31:04.557)
you
Andrew Adams (31:12.045)
Yep, yep, Into the
Stephen Watson (31:13.536)
Yeah, something in the air tonight. But like it has to be that. Yeah, however many hits it is, you have to do it. And it has to be something you do as a demo. Yeah, with Craig. I think that would be so much fun.
Andrew Adams (31:25.009)
I'll have to get Craig to help me with that.
Andrew Adams (31:32.597)
Okay, Craig, if you're listening, reach out. Let's make that happen. That is funny. know, is you changing subject here. You bring up music. And I was talking with a good friend last last week, I think that the number of. Skilled.
Stephen Watson (31:34.722)
Yeah, it has to happen.
Stephen Watson (31:39.361)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (31:55.775)
very skilled martial artists who are also musicians is very very high and I find that really interesting.
Stephen Watson (32:04.007)
I have always found that absolutely interesting. I cannot spell rhythm, so I am the furthest from musical of anybody you've met. And yet I have found that the number of my students who are musicians, like perhaps symphony musicians and Juilliard and are working
Andrew Adams (32:32.247)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (32:33.764)
or like, very into like, they're the somebody that always has a guitar and a harmonica in their car kind of thing is far greater than the average cross section of life. And I don't I'm just I'm very interested in it, but I don't have a confidence in any guess as to why that is.
Andrew Adams (32:58.059)
Yeah, yeah. And I'm not sure I do either. I mean, I am a musician myself. And it's just an observation that I don't see. If you were to poll 100 skilled basketball players, the number of them that are also skilled musicians would not. Yeah. But if you, but if you.
Stephen Watson (33:02.024)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (33:11.455)
Right.
Yes.
Stephen Watson (33:17.824)
There's 15 or yeah, it's 100 martial artists. It's gonna be 60 of them.
Andrew Adams (33:23.541)
Yeah, like, and I just find that really interesting. And I think there's something there is a correlation there that, you know, just, I don't know, you mentioned music and it got me to thinking about that.
Stephen Watson (33:25.918)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (33:32.359)
My, my guess is that there's a few things that come together to make that. But I don't know what it is. And I'm wondering if there's been a study on it. I've never tried to look it up. Mostly I feel a great longing and a great maybe self disappointment or if I could redo things here's some you know, that kind of thought where I feel like
Andrew Adams (33:59.661)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (34:02.266)
I feel like I'm my whole martial arts career. I've been teaching in Paris, but I only speak English. And I feel like if I could speak music, I could communicate with my students better and they deserve that. Like that's how I feel. I felt that way for decades. I haven't done anything about it. So how strongly do I feel? Like, who knows? It feels really strong to me.
Andrew Adams (34:11.405)
Mmm.
Andrew Adams (34:20.109)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (34:29.12)
Yeah, sure.
Stephen Watson (34:31.41)
but I haven't sat down to study music theory either.
Andrew Adams (34:34.795)
Well, and what's really interesting is how many musicians do you personally know that you could learn that from?
Stephen Watson (34:41.305)
I yes, I teach mostly in private lessons. And very often, I will try and you I teach with metaphor quite a bit, which is a very Taoist thing to do. And I'll very often offer to teach something in a musical way. spoken, but like, speed drawing metaphors from music.
but I'll do it in a way that I'll invite the student to correct me and then educate me. Like, no, no, I know you think that's a downbeat, but that's actually something else. That's a fizz, what do they call it? I forgot like, I don't know. And then I feel like we're more connected now. And I learned a little bit, just a little bit.
Andrew Adams (35:14.035)
Mm, sure.
Stephen Watson (35:40.226)
And I think that they tend to find it valuable because I'm trying. But I really feel like, boy, if I could be a, you know, like an orchestral musician or something, I could relate at a really deep level with students. And I don't. It's interesting.
Andrew Adams (35:44.811)
Yes.
Andrew Adams (35:57.581)
Mmm.
Andrew Adams (36:03.063)
It's never too late to learn.
Stephen Watson (36:04.412)
I appreciate I'm looking in the room at musical instruments. There's there's flutes and a guitar and a drum and a ball and a gong and like I'm thinking it through.
Andrew Adams (36:16.781)
You
And for me as a percussionist, everything is a drum. Everything is a drum.
Stephen Watson (36:24.0)
Everything, everything is a drum. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (36:28.513)
And when you have drumsticks just around the house everywhere, everything's a drum.
Stephen Watson (36:32.237)
Yes. Yeah, no, that's the I think I think that's perfect. Yeah, I wonder if a like a music teacher would have insights like I'm thinking of somebody that knows about early childhood development or something. Yeah, like would they have any insights into how music helps kids learn beyond just the music, whether it's social skills or
Andrew Adams (36:51.917)
Mmm.
Stephen Watson (37:01.631)
or communication or whatever, and how that might map to a martial artist who's teaching the same age group and interested in getting across the same stuff. Because of course, the martial arts teacher is not super excited about teaching with a sidekick and a spinning elbow. They want to teach you to, you know, resolve your problems with your peer group and, and to look after your younger sister and to be healthy and all this kind of stuff and be polite.
Andrew Adams (37:28.237)
you
Stephen Watson (37:31.737)
The kick and the punch is the secret is it's not terribly complicated. You just got to do it a bunch. The complicated stuff is becoming a good human being. You know, that's the really tough stuff. And I think music has a way of allowing us to express emotion.
Andrew Adams (37:37.164)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (38:00.372)
without filtering it through language, although it can filter through language. And similarly, it allows us to access somebody else's emotion without the middleman of language. And I think that there's a great empathetic bridge that can be built through music, which I think is very important to humanity. You know?
Andrew Adams (38:24.843)
Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Music has an incredible ability to evoke emotion in a way that not written word does for everyone. and I think that that that's it can connect because even if you speak, you you don't speak French and I only speak French, we can't communicate, but we listened to the same song. both.
Stephen Watson (38:39.092)
Yeah, yes.
Andrew Adams (38:54.025)
interpret it in our own way, you know, and can evoke emotions.
Stephen Watson (38:56.123)
Right? Exactly. Yeah. And we're also going to be both moved by the same part of the song and both rocking out at this like because beyond language, we can connect to that kind of thing. You know, I used to a friend of mine is a martial artist out West. He he would have this Senegalese blues in his tape deck like his and he'd always have house guests over.
And when he came back, he'd note if it was in the deck or it had been taken out. And he said, if anybody kept this in, they're my kind of people. And if they took it out, they just didn't get it. I'm not inviting them back.
Andrew Adams (39:35.777)
You
Stephen Watson (39:43.575)
which I happen to agree with because I found it and I just kept playing it. was like this is the best thing ever. So that was Ali Farkatore. He was playing it.
Andrew Adams (39:51.372)
funny.
Andrew Adams (39:58.349)
That was really funny. Well.
Stephen Watson (39:59.997)
Do you use music in teaching at all? mean martial arts teaching.
Andrew Adams (40:03.213)
You know what? It's yeah. Yeah, I knew what you meant. And you know what? I don't and it's and it's it's weird. I obviously have nothing against it, but I know instructors like Craig, for example, and Mark, they both, you know, Craig Wareham and Mark Warner, they both will on a regular basis just teaching class. There's music playing in the background. And for me,
Stephen Watson (40:08.535)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (40:14.529)
Sure.
Stephen Watson (40:27.049)
Right?
Andrew Adams (40:31.661)
And this is perhaps bizarre because I am a professional musician. I don't. when I was there and I, it felt bizarre to me. Not please audience know that I'm not saying bad or wrong. It just was so different from, from what I'm used to and what, from what I usually do that it, it felt very bizarre to me.
Stephen Watson (40:35.38)
Right.
Stephen Watson (40:46.165)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (40:56.338)
Yeah. Well, you know, it's easier for us to remember music than words, like a speech, like, because a little bit of rhyme, a little bit of rhythm, or maybe I mean melody, I don't know what the word is. But these help to establish in the learning centers of the mind, powerful markers. And
Andrew Adams (41:06.669)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (41:24.894)
Absolutely.
Stephen Watson (41:26.48)
the the the condition of mankind before literacy was so widespread was if it's important enough to get passed on, it must be passed on with poetry. And if we can include music and make it music and lyrics, so much the better. But all of the most important stuff to pass on, whether it's about our history, about our God about our
you know how we hunt or whatever it is, this gets encoded in music. And the music is generally very stripped down. The lyrics are very stripped down because it's needs to be accurately memorizable to basically everybody after you hear it a couple times, right? And then rituals help us to return to it and renew and refresh it. But in martial arts, which
Andrew Adams (42:00.091)
Absolutely.
Andrew Adams (42:15.725)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (42:25.081)
many of the martial arts are kind of pre-prod literacy. They were also passed on in song or poetry. They weren't passed on with CDs and YouTube links or even written books. That's not going to do many of the people much good. You and I might value a book because I can look it up because I have that facility. But back then,
How do I get this across with music? And I can't say every single thing about it because now it's not a song. It's just a dictionary entry or an encyclopedia entry. And so I think there's probably something to trying to teach something, maybe something like Pinyin 1 or something fairly simple with an early song or poem and like try teaching that way.
even though it's not how you learned or it feels bizarre or your teacher would never have music in class, that's fine. But you could have the students make the rhythm with their feet in their hands. And you could say a few things to I think it's really an interesting, probably fruitful study of how the mind and learning and engagement works. Probably with kids, it works great would be my guess, you know.
Andrew Adams (43:34.295)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (43:48.46)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
So here's, no, know, audience, think about this for a second. So I'm 49 years old. I graduated high school in 1993. And tell me how many people, I mean, audience listening, you can actually write me and tell me, but like, think about this for a second.
Stephen Watson (43:53.899)
Report back when you've done that, Andrew.
Stephen Watson (44:12.087)
Andrew at WhistleKick.com.
Andrew Adams (44:14.219)
Yep. I graduated high school in 1993. There was a song, hypothetical, I don't know what the song is, but there could be a song that I listened to a bunch that year. And I have never listened to it. It's 2025 now. I have not listened to that song since then. Right. So we're looking, we're talking 25, 30 plus years ago. And I could hear that song on the radio right now and still be able to sing it.
Stephen Watson (44:24.77)
Yes, sure.
Andrew Adams (44:42.613)
Maybe not get every, maybe not be able to get every single word right. But right. How many people learned to form in 1993, 30 years ago, and have never have never done it since then. And then could just do it right now. Right. It just the, are there people that could do it perhaps, but I think most of us would agree that's probably not going to happen, but with music that can happen.
Stephen Watson (44:42.714)
Yes.
But almost all of it, yes.
Stephen Watson (44:54.37)
and haven't practiced it.
Stephen Watson (45:03.694)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (45:09.871)
Yes.
I wonder if also like when you learn a form, even if you don't lose, learn it with music, record yourself saying it in a bit of a rhythm, step to the left, middle punch, low block, return 180. And then like kind of play that when you're going to sleep. So it finds you like music maybe. I wonder if that would be like a helpful way to lock it in. I don't know.
Andrew Adams (45:23.286)
Mm, yep.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (45:34.659)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe.
Andrew Adams (45:39.627)
Yeah, I like that. like that. Maybe we'll have to do some experimentation. Yeah.
Stephen Watson (45:44.822)
Yeah, yeah, Mushin Music Academy.
Andrew Adams (45:48.065)
I love it. love it. Sifu, thank you so much for coming on the show and chatting with me again. This was so much fun.
Stephen Watson (45:51.7)
Of course.
Of course, we found ourselves a cool little corner of consideration there and just by chance. So I liked it.
Andrew Adams (46:01.429)
Yeah, yeah, that was really cool. Audience listening or watching, what did you think of this? Do you have thoughts on taking a break and how you've handled students taking a break or music? Do you use music in your class? Let us know if you're watching on YouTube, maybe comment whether you do or do not use music.
Stephen Watson (46:22.837)
Yeah, and if so, what's your favorite? What's your favorite music? You know what works best for your class?
Andrew Adams (46:27.307)
Yeah. Yeah. How does it work for you? Yeah. And while you're there on YouTube, like and subscribe, hit the notification bell. So, you know about all of the episodes that are coming out. and obviously I, like I mentioned at the beginning, the subscribe button at whistlekickmarshallaxradio.com to subscribe to our new newsletter. and then the last thing I'll mention is, know, Sifu Watson and I just entertained you for about 40 minutes or so.
Stephen Watson (46:35.981)
Definitely.
Stephen Watson (46:55.277)
Probably three minutes of the 40 was entertaining, but we tried. We really tried.
Andrew Adams (46:58.093)
Maybe that's fair. We did. We tried hard. And you, the listener, didn't have to spend a penny on it. You got it completely for free. If you were to go to a comedy show. Now, granted, see for this wasn't this wasn't a comedy show. But if you're going to go out and enjoy entertainment, you pay for it. You help you give back so that the artists that are doing the things that you enjoy can continue to do that. And I would ask you that you do the same thing.
Go to patreon.com slash whistle kick to help support this show. We entertain you on a regular basis for free. And it would be really great if you could throw us a cup of coffee every month, $5 a month. It's all it is. That's all we ask. Sifu again, thank you so much for being here.
Stephen Watson (47:38.997)
Perfect. Yeah.
Thank you. If it comes through, I don't know if it'll come through, but who knows? Probably not, yeah. That's okay. You can find me at somedayfarm.org. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you, thank you.
Andrew Adams (47:50.614)
Yeah.
We're gonna put it in the show notes so that everybody can see how to get in touch with you and how to help support you as well. Thank you so much for being here and we'll definitely have to do this again.