Episode 1073 - Self Defense without Harm
In this episode Andrew is joined by Stephen Watson and Tommy Given and they discuss the concept of defending yourself without causing harm.
Self Defense without Harm - Episode 1073
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Andrew Adams is joined by Stephen Watson and Tommy Given. They delve into the concept of self-defense without causing harm. They explore the use of force spectrum, the philosophy of non-violence in martial arts, and the complexities involved in teaching techniques that prioritize de-escalation over aggression. The conversation emphasizes the importance of communication, conflict resolution, and the need for martial artists to reflect on their motivations and the impact of their actions.
TAKEAWAYS
Self-defense can be taught without causing harm.
The use of force spectrum is crucial in martial arts.
Martial artists often struggle with their ego in conflict situations.
Teaching non-violent techniques is essential for instructors.
Conflict resolution should be prioritized over aggression.
Understanding the motivations behind martial arts training is important.
Communication plays a key role in de-escalating situations.
The philosophy of non-violence can enhance martial arts practice.
Complexity in training can lead to deeper understanding.
True healing occurs when both parties walk away changed.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
02:24 The Spectrum of Force in Martial Arts
05:07 Avoiding Conflict: The Philosophy of Self-Defense
07:48 The Role of Ego in Martial Arts Training
10:15 Understanding Use of Force in Real Situations
12:55 The Four Levels of a Martial Artist
15:49 Teaching Self-Defense with Compassion
18:18 Understanding Nonviolent Intervention Techniques
20:19 The Philosophy of Caring in Martial Arts
21:52 Navigating Miscommunication and Conflict Resolution
23:40 The Impact of Injury on Communication
25:41 Behavior as Communication in Conflict Situations
27:12 The Complexity of Self-Defense and Ego
29:29 Introspection in Martial Arts Training
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Don’t forget to drop them in the comment section down below!
SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Andrew Adams (01:01.408)
Welcome. You're listening to another episode of whistle kick martial arts radio, or perhaps you're watching on YouTube. And if you're there, welcome. We're excited to have you. Although truth be told, we're excited to have you. If you're just listening to we are joined today by Steven Watson and Tommy Given. I'm so excited to see you guys both today. How are you?
Tommy Given (01:04.025)
Thank
Tommy Given (01:22.658)
I'm doing good, doing good.
Stephen Watson (01:25.287)
I'm doing good plus a little bit better than Tommy. So good plus.
Tommy Given (01:28.94)
Good. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (01:30.114)
Excellent. I'm excited to get into today's episode, but before we do, in case we have any new listeners or viewers to the show here at whistle kick martial arts radio, we obviously are produce this amazing podcast over 1070 episodes at this point, all brought to you completely for free. can find out all the information about all of our podcasts at whistle kick martial arts radio.com, but whistle kick does a lot more than just this podcast. You can go to whistle kick.com.
to find out about all of the other things that we do, whether that's release books or training programs or sparring gear or apparel. Or maybe you're a school owner and you'd like to join the Whistlekick Alliance to join other like-minded school owners to help grow your school. All of that stuff can be found at whistlekick.com. And we'd love for you to go there and check out all the things we do. Or maybe you want to come to one of our events that we host around the country. So we'd love for you to go there, check out all the stuff that we do.
Stephen Watson (02:09.901)
you
Tommy Given (02:11.8)
Okay. Okay.
Stephen Watson (02:17.9)
Okay.
Andrew Adams (02:29.634)
And if you do go there and purchase anything, you can use the code podcast one five to save yourself 15 % on almost everything, but not everything, but go there to find out all of the things you can. And today we are here to talk about self-defense without doing harm. And I was thinking of this the other day when, uh, I, uh, a video pop up on my Facebook came up about.
Stephen Watson (02:53.504)
Mm hmm. Okay.
Andrew Adams (02:59.19)
my first degree black belt test when I tested in Shotokan. And one of the things the instructor would have us do was we had these self-defense scenarios that we had to come up with. know, somebody attacks you with a haymaker. How would you defend yourself and whatever? And I went through them and he said, okay, now I want you to do the same thing, but this time I don't want you to hurt your opponent. And I was like, what?
Tommy Given (02:59.865)
you
Tommy Given (03:16.696)
you
Stephen Watson (03:17.772)
you
Andrew Adams (03:28.15)
He said, yeah, I want you to pretend that it's your drunk uncle, that you're at a wedding and he's just getting handsy with someone and you don't want to hurt him. And so I thought this would be a really great fun thing to talk about and who better than Stephen and Tommy. So Stephen, when I bring, when I mentioned that little story, what comes up for you? What thoughts do you have on
Stephen Watson (03:43.972)
Mm.
Stephen Watson (03:54.047)
Well, I think often martial artists are driven to martial arts by their ego, which is often sparked or flamed by popular culture, right? Bruce Lee doing the cool thing in the movie or Jeff Spiekman doing the cool thing in the movie or whatever it might be. And
If we think about use of force as a spectrum, the way law enforcement does, law enforcement is intended to start their use of force spectrum at the least force in any encounter and then ratchet up or ratchet back down during one situation, maybe moment to moment, sensibly, responsibly, which is really hard. starting
I think I'm yelling. I'm so excited about the topic. think I'm like very loud. So the idea of like, let me start with as little force as I can, is contrary to what most martial arts do, which is like, I'm working hard to get flexible and powerful and concentrate my mind and work, you know, break all the boards and do all this stuff. Because if it ever happens, and of course, I'm going to pay lip service to
Tommy Given (04:55.799)
you
Tommy Given (05:15.408)
Okay.
Stephen Watson (05:16.701)
I hope it never happens. But the truth is, I'm a martial artist. I kind of, I kind of want to know what would happen and if they push it too far, do I finally get to do the thing? And then my tendency is to start really up here with the spinning hook kick or the double thing and the choke out and the all the rest of it. And that's not based on a reading of the situation that's based on
the urgency of my ego, which has been denied for all these years of training when all I did was punch a bag. Like, come on, I want to see if this really does break a jaw or whatever my fantasy is. So what I think about is that that sort of drunk uncle idea is a very helpful way to think, let's not start at the top of your use of force spectrum. Let's start lower down.
Tommy Given (05:50.454)
Thank
Tommy Given (06:04.415)
Okay.
Stephen Watson (06:12.018)
So that's what I think.
Andrew Adams (06:14.176)
Yeah, Tommy, what do you think?
Tommy Given (06:15.51)
Very similar, especially like Sifu Steve just said that in a law enforcement situation, you want to use the least amount. If you could talk your way into whatever the situation out of it is the most desirable, where there's no hands on at all, where you can come in and just redirect everyone back to it, doing store security or any kind of...
Stephen Watson (06:35.827)
Yes.
Tommy Given (06:44.904)
work that you're doing, you feel something abrupt, like in a restaurant, guys arguing now with the waitress, if the waitress can just get that person redirected by giving them an extra salad or whatever it is, that's avoiding conflict in a positive way. And avoiding conflict, isn't that really what it is? So I always think of that moment in the Karate Kid movie where...
Stephen Watson (07:01.298)
Yes.
Tommy Given (07:14.134)
He's in the boat with Miyagi and he's practicing on the boat. And Miyagi asks him, he why are you taking this? Why are you doing all this karate? Why are you working so hard? goes, I want learn how to fight. And Miyagi just puts his head down. And then he looks up and he goes, wait, so I don't have to fight. He had that moment, epiphany where I can train to the point where I don't have to enter this conflict anymore. I'm not in conflict with myself.
I'm not in conflict with my girlfriend. I'm not in conflict with the idiot that's trying to bust me in the nose right now. The only conflict is in himself. And as you know, we talked about before, Aikido, that's the whole art. The essence of that art is way of harmony, way of harmonizing energies, way of heaven to be that ultimate spot where no matter what's coming at you, they're taking on nature itself because there's no harm.
Stephen Watson (07:54.698)
you
Andrew Adams (08:13.346)
Yeah, and the thing that I think of in terms of like, definitely we've had episodes and I know Tommy, you and I have talked to it at a great length about being able to dissolve a situation or before it happens, know, the one that we see all that we have seen all the time in the movies is Enter the Dragon, right? When Bruce Lee is on the boat and
Tommy Given (08:15.424)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (08:34.761)
Thank
Andrew Adams (08:37.622)
Sean, what was his last name?
Tommy Given (08:40.072)
John Saxton. No. Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (08:41.814)
John Saxon like wanted to fight him on the boat. And Bruce Lee's like, let's go over to that Island. Let's get in this boat. And he just lets John get in the boat, releases the rope and now he's stuck and he's gotten out of the fight. But I'm thinking more in long-term in terms of when I was growing up in martial arts, you know, and again, I grew up in Gojiru and then switched to Shotokan. And so this black belt test for me was I'd been studying Shotokan for quite a while in my mid twenties. And I've always been told that, you know,
Stephen Watson (09:05.864)
Okay.
Andrew Adams (09:10.29)
one punch should end the fight, right? So when someone came in with a haymaker or went to choke me, I was going the most aggressive I could. And it was very much that what I was used to, what I'm used to training because that's what I was taught. And I think in hindsight, him telling me, I want you to do the same thing, but I don't want you to hurt your attacker.
Stephen Watson (09:27.398)
Right.
Tommy Given (09:31.253)
you
Andrew Adams (09:36.384)
because what if it's, know, maybe he's not trying to choke you, but you need to subdue him for whatever reason, your drunk uncle. I think that's something that I didn't think of in my younger years. And I think that's where I think we as martial arts instructors need to think of that for our students.
Stephen Watson (09:57.521)
Yeah, the the maximal power idea that you were doing in Gojiru suggests or Shotokan early yeah, suggests to me that your sense of what the art was, was maximum power. And when it comes time to deliver your sense of what the art is, plus your sense of I need to impress, I need to be seen to be really applying myself.
Andrew Adams (10:05.89)
Shot of Khan.
Stephen Watson (10:27.112)
kind of means you're always turned up to 11. And that means you don't have even the question in your mind of what volume should I make this particular technique, because it's binary. I'm either not doing it or I'm, you know, completely going all out. And I don't think that's like your to blame. You just hadn't had that type of thinking. Now you have that type of thinking you can say to yourself,
Andrew Adams (10:50.946)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (10:54.222)
I have four different levels or 400 levels or whatever, and try and read the situation and explore what you have in your toolkit. know, in going back to the law enforcement India, when we have this use of force spectrum that we might have heard about, does anybody here know what the least use of force is? What is it's described as on the spectrum?
Tommy Given (10:56.084)
Okay. Okay.
Andrew Adams (11:24.288)
My guess would be raising your voice.
Stephen Watson (11:28.166)
That is not the least, but it's way down there. It's having an officer present in uniform looking the part, right? That's it. Maybe just chatting to somebody selling cookies and they're just having conversation. Now, if that officer there does not look the part, right? Their uniform doesn't quite fit. They have a stain on their pants.
their holster looks old, right? And they don't have good posture, let's say. Your sense of the authority in the space is different than if that person looks like they are just, you know, they're ready to train recruits. Not necessarily angry and standing rigid, but like really, they look up to the task. So that's actually the lowest use of force, which is the presence of the officer, right?
Andrew Adams (12:07.052)
Hmm.
Stephen Watson (12:23.183)
And then we move up to sort of demeanor and voice and, and, know, discussion and that sort of a thing. But even just kind of being aware of that, you know, I always feel like if the conflict is brewing and it might become physical, like if I adopt my demeanor, my breathing and my stance, I'm pretty sure that the other person is not going to push it.
Tommy Given (12:32.511)
Okay.
Tommy Given (12:51.282)
You
Stephen Watson (12:51.399)
I haven't like even done a thing, right? It's not going to be a good YouTube video. But I will convey to them that we're at the very beginning of a long spectrum of use of force. And I'm rehearsed at all of it. And I'm happy to do, you know, any level and to be able to convey that with confidence and not sort of performative expression is what we want to do. You know, when you asked
Andrew Adams (13:03.552)
Yeah, yeah.
Tommy Given (13:07.378)
you
Stephen Watson (13:20.665)
how do we convey to our students this idea of not hurting? I think it's really important going back to what Tommy was saying with the karate kid is, are we doing these martial arts so that we don't bring harm to the world? And myself, I'm included in the world. And through the doing of the martial arts, I developed the ability to deploy violence.
Tommy Given (13:21.01)
you
Tommy Given (13:38.77)
Okay.
Stephen Watson (13:48.187)
That is one of the things that happens, right? In the same way I can do a split and that's like an offshoot of having done martial arts. I can do a split or I know how to stretch a shoulder safely or something or breathe well. But the reason that I'm doing it has nothing to do with violence. It has everything to do with healing and connection and learning. And the practice gives me this option of violence.
but it isn't at all what I'm pursuing.
Which will pass by a lot of people looking at it from the outside, of course, right? They're gonna tune into that looks really powerful and I'd love to hit somebody too. I get that. But how do I make sure my students get that? Because if they just see what's on the outside, they're gonna be like, well, you kick really hard. I love your punches and that style looks vicious, you know, which is fair, it does, but that's not actually what I'm working on. It's what I'm working with, but not what I'm working toward.
Andrew Adams (14:45.12)
Yeah. Tommy?
Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Adams (14:52.386)
Thoughts, Tommy?
Tommy Given (14:53.502)
Yeah, I used to have a picture and Steve probably saw it at some point. I had it in most of my schools and I'm trying to find it again. But it was a cartoon drawing, like the ones that you would see like in Studio Boy where they have the different rows coming down. And the top row was the worst kind of martial artist. And it has a guy there and an evil person comes up and it's a cartoon. So it's dressed up to look like, you know, a shaving person. And
Stephen Watson (15:20.815)
Yeah.
Tommy Given (15:22.267)
whatever that means nowadays. And the guy comes up and just kills the guy and then he's walking away. Then the next step was he does some training and so he confronts the conflict, still loses though, and then the other guy walks away. Then the third level was that guy comes up, there's a conflict, but he wins the fight, quote unquote wins, and win is actually in quotation marks.
And he walks away and the other guy's laying down on the ground. And the fourth and final part was the guy comes up looking for trouble. He's able to defend himself by just putting the guy gently on the ground. And then he knows his boo boo that he got from being on the ground. And then they get up and walk away together. that, that it was the four levels of a martial artist. And so to be able to have the skill to stop the guy from whatever he's doing.
Stephen Watson (15:55.782)
you
Andrew Adams (16:03.862)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (16:10.393)
Love it.
Tommy Given (16:19.993)
still put him on the ground without really hurting him, saw he hurt him, and then was still able to heal. And then underneath it, the quote was, true healing only takes place when both people walk away changed. So there's that big turmoil that's going on. So when you're in the middle of that tornado, we've all been there, if you're able to see through that storm.
Stephen Watson (16:31.565)
You
Andrew Adams (16:34.818)
Hmm.
Stephen Watson (16:36.171)
brilliant,
Andrew Adams (16:38.721)
Yeah, I love that.
Tommy Given (16:50.128)
and see the rainbow on the other side, and see the parting of the clouds on the other side, or my dog howling in the other room, that's the joy.
Stephen Watson (16:59.663)
So what I'm thinking, if I may, Andrew, is that everything that Tommy described, these four levels, are at least four times more complex than how somebody thinks martial arts is, right? And it's four times less appealing, like to the ego and the emotions, right? And really complex, therefore takes more mental energy, more time in on the dojo mat to learn.
Andrew Adams (17:10.92)
Sure. Sure, yeah, yeah.
Tommy Given (17:12.408)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (17:29.378)
feed my ego, all of that stuff is like deeper work, right? So if we presume that people will tend to come to the martial arts, looking to address their ego, their emotions and their sense of simplicity, like, I'm moving to a dangerous part of town, I want to learn self defense, like just that's how my they might present themselves to you. Then I think what our task is to find a way to receive them, which generally may mean
I need to be able to show them that I do have the ability to do what they want, but then start to introduce as early as I can the seeds of complexity and the seeds of what I'm trying to sow here are not simply ego and emotion driven. Somebody hurts me, I hurt them. So how do I introduce the sense of those complexities and then start to work towards them? Because they're going to probably come to me just, I've been bullied a lot, I want to fight back. Like very sort of simple.
And so I find that if I can't demonstrate some of that, they're not in the position to listen to me. So I need to be able to demonstrate, hey, I can play with you, I can talk this language, I can do that stuff. But here's how I'm really addressing myself. This is much more complicated and complex than it looks. And if I overwhelm them with that complexity too soon,
Tommy Given (18:29.364)
Andrew Adams (18:53.034)
Yeah, yeah.
Stephen Watson (18:56.726)
It's not what they're looking for. They just want to, you know, hit a bag a bunch. So, and if I do it too late, then I lose them because I'm just supporting what they came in for. And that's a challenge.
Andrew Adams (19:01.12)
Yeah, yeah, it could cost. Yep.
Andrew Adams (19:07.712)
Yeah, for sure. I think for me, like I, you know, I put a lot of thought into this and this was years ago, 20, know, 20, almost 20 years ago at this point. Like I put a lot of thought into it since then. And there was nothing, I want to make it really clear to people listening. I think it's, there's nothing wrong with teaching in your school. Somebody grabs your wrist and you do whatever technique that is and you punch them, you kick them, you get them on the ground.
you you hurt them. I'm not saying that that's a bad thing to teach. If I am on the street and I'm with my wife and someone attacks us, I'm going to defend myself and the other person is likely to get hurt. I don't want that to happen, but it's likely going to happen. But I think for me, it's an important distinction between, and I'm gonna keep coming back to, the drunk uncle or a friend or, you know, I've got an uncle at a wedding
Stephen Watson (19:42.818)
Right.
Andrew Adams (20:06.242)
is hypothetical, I don't really have an uncle like this, but I've got an uncle at a wedding and he's had too much to drink and he's getting really handsy with someone's girlfriend or whatever and is starting to get violent, right? I want to be able to subdue that person, but I don't want to necessarily hurt them. I don't want to break their head. I don't want to bust up some arms. And I think for me now, when I'm teaching,
Stephen Watson (20:13.205)
Right.
Stephen Watson (20:17.155)
Sure. Sure.
Stephen Watson (20:21.825)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (20:30.636)
Yes.
Andrew Adams (20:35.33)
I make a conscious choice now, I often will teach here's the technique where we would hurt the person and here's a technique for where we would not hurt the person. And I think that's the important distinction that I think we, at least at a minimum at the base level needs to be considered.
Tommy Given (20:41.91)
you
Stephen Watson (20:44.931)
Brilliant. Brilliant.
Stephen Watson (20:55.456)
At WhistleKicks Free Training Day in Philly area, Chichester this year, Sarah Beth South taught a workshop called Drunk Uncle. I mean, there was a fuller name, but it was basically Drunk Uncle. And I thought it was great because it's this idea of how do you address somebody that you don't actually want to hospitalize or have a career.
Tommy Given (21:07.001)
Right.
Andrew Adams (21:09.836)
I love it.
Andrew Adams (21:14.902)
Mmm.
Stephen Watson (21:20.547)
threatening injury, but you still need to manage and separate them from somebody take them down, get them outside that sort of thing. And I just thought just the way you've used it today, drunk uncle, at least for me, I immediately knew what the workshop was about, and that that's not generally taught, like, so it's very, very exciting to hear that phrasing. I think that understanding that there's a spectrum of possibilities that are available to us if we're going to intervene.
Tommy Given (21:23.63)
.
Andrew Adams (21:35.458)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (21:50.206)
is important. I teach a martial art in a way that is entirely nonviolent. So the whole goal of the martial art as I understand it, and I teach it, is that I need to care for the person that I'm in conflict with, with the same measure of concern as I am concerned for my own health. So there's no point at which
Tommy Given (22:03.423)
you you
Stephen Watson (22:16.642)
I'm going to try and take care of them as long as I can take care of myself. I'm interested in caring for them from the beginning, even if they have a knife or whatever, and caring for those around us and caring for myself, which is enormously complex and the very sophisticated way of thinking it's very hard to do. But for me, I find it a important whetstone practice for my spirit to really work on developing.
Andrew Adams (22:49.218)
Tommy?
Tommy Given (22:49.98)
Well, there's a lot there in that that not get that seafood just did so Yeah, so
Stephen Watson (22:58.038)
muted. Tommy's muted. Let me this is perfect. My Qi field is finally shutting Tommy up. I've dreamt of this day. This is so See I non violently shut him up. It's fantastic. Just it looks like he might have a little mic problem or something. He had a little drop off the connectivity a minute ago. So maybe this is
Andrew Adams (22:58.658)
You're muted, Tommy.
Tommy Given (23:10.807)
So this is where we hand over our black belts and sashes now because you just.
Andrew Adams (23:24.406)
Yeah. Yeah. We, still, we still can't hear you Tommy. That's okay. it's funny that I'm, you know, I brought up the drunk uncle thing. I didn't even know that Sarah Beth had taught a class like that in, in, at free training in Philly.
Tommy Given (23:30.669)
Can hear me now?
Tommy Given (23:34.617)
okay. Yeah. So, that's just, that's bizarre. The, Sarah Betts doing that again, by the way, just for a little note, she's doing it at Marshall Summit. She has so much positive feedback from Philly, but there was so much to digest in what Sifu said, a moment ago, you know, it is good for your spirit. It is good for your, for your heart. If you're, especially if you're walking into the situation, it's a drunk uncle. This is my favorite uncle.
Stephen Watson (23:35.093)
Yeah. Yeah, it's fantastic. Now we hear you. Yes.
Andrew Adams (23:39.894)
Yeah, go ahead, Tommy.
Tommy Given (24:03.466)
He had that one too many. However, that's my favorite cousin as well. So now you're, and you're trying to weed through all of that. If you can get your uncle in a comforting hug, turn him around, walk him outside. And yet he, the whole time is only thinking, us, my nephew giving me a hug. Everybody wins, right? No one's offended. No one gets hurt.
that a week later, you you get a text message from your cousin saying, thank you, you know. and, and I don't know. mean, I, I found myself in a lot of situations where you could tell it was a miscommunication or someone just simply did not understand the other person fully or at all, or didn't care to understand, didn't care enough to understand. and something got escalated.
Stephen Watson (24:36.545)
you
Stephen Watson (24:46.496)
Right.
Tommy Given (25:02.807)
would have never had to go there at all. And it seems to be easier today to offend somebody than it was when I was younger. I don't know that's because I'm older now and I see more, I don't know. But he said spirit.
Stephen Watson (25:04.131)
Right.
Tommy Given (25:19.583)
Right, right. Well, that was my next thing is that because you said spiritually, if I don't take offense to anything that you're doing and I truly care about my neighbor and I truly want to love up on them and I truly want to see what's best for them in their best interest, not mine, then it makes my martial arts a lot more complete as well. And because my training a lot more meaning as well. I'm no longer just trained, you know, there's a different levels of martial arts where
Stephen Watson (25:21.586)
You can't, you can't, you can't give somebody offense. They can only take it.
Stephen Watson (25:34.144)
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Stephen Watson (25:44.447)
Right.
Tommy Given (25:48.74)
We do muscle, we repeat ourselves, so there's muscle memory. And then the muscle memory becomes instinctive. Eventually, and I see very few people, but it does happen, where that instinct becomes who you are. And if who you are is that person and wants to help the neighbor versus just smash them in the face, like maybe the first reason we moved in. I I was brought into martial arts as a kid, purely ego. And my father's ego on top of it.
Stephen Watson (26:13.557)
Right.
Tommy Given (26:16.816)
You've been vicariously through what I was able to do. Let's be honest. But all that's going away now. It's not even part of what I remotely think about until you bring it up right now. Yeah.
Stephen Watson (26:35.326)
One of the things that I think is very interesting is that if you hurt somebody, let's say as a self-defender, you break their arm or whatever it might be, it tends to stop communication, right? Because they turn inward, this hurts and you're a jerk and I need to get away or something like that. And you tend to turn inward either I can't believe I had to hurt somebody that bad or you turn.
elsewhere, meaning I'm going to call the authorities or let's get my family out of here, that sort of thing. But the at the point of injury, we tend to dissolve the bridge of communication between the two parties, right. And something that I studied for years is called professional assault response training or part training. And it was you I don't know if it's still used to be honest, but I'm sure you can Google it.
Tommy Given (27:10.874)
Okay. you
Andrew Adams (27:16.119)
Mm.
Stephen Watson (27:32.029)
Maybe it's been updated or something, but it was used in intellectual, mental, emotional institutions, institutions for people with developmental disorders and issues of the emotional, intellectual, mental side. And quite often, you know, you'd have to physically intervene. Somebody's hurting themselves.
Tommy Given (27:52.774)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (28:00.926)
somebody's damaging, let's say equipment and risking their own health, or obviously, attacking staff or other people in the community, right? And so you can't just go roundhouse them in the head, because that would stop the conflict, you know, this person is in your care, right? And so professional assault response training was developed to how do you bring this person to stillness, right?
And it's based in this sort of philosophy that all behavior is communication. And if I injure them, I'm sort of severs in the communication. And so how do I continue to communicate? And often what we do is what Tommy was pointing at, is if you can get them in a hug from behind, their tools are directed outward away from you, and you're sitting with them or standing with them. And now that puts your mouth next to their ear.
and your heart next to their heart so you can breathe with them and, you know, talk them through and give them time but they're restrained sort of seatbelted if you will. you know, there's a whole bunch more to the protocol but just to give you an idea. But just this idea of that behaviors communication. And if I can see that the behavior however violent is just a communication that suggests to me there's an alternative to
Tommy Given (29:08.766)
you
Stephen Watson (29:28.754)
the simple iron broom technique to take them down that I'm definitely been willing to wait and to try, you know, and even though I could make a case for I could have done it here legally, maybe thinking of communication allows me to see other opportunities, which are more difficult. It's way more easy just to kick the guy, you know, do your cool move for sure.
Andrew Adams (29:33.462)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (29:51.499)
I think, I think that's why instructors tend to use that as a default. It's, it's definitely, and I think every single person listening would agree that it is much easier to teach someone how to punch effectively with power and force than it is to teach somebody how to do a takedown with a subduing technique. It's definitely easier to do the striking route. But I think what we're all saying is there's benefit to learning other.
Stephen Watson (29:57.255)
Mm-hmm.
Tommy Given (30:08.872)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (30:14.461)
Yes.
Andrew Adams (30:21.106)
Not that those striking arts are bad. I teach that for sure. But having some nuance and different levels of force within your own training and if you are passing it on to others, teaching them how to do that I think is really critical.
Tommy Given (30:35.84)
It's easy to learn how to hurt somebody. It almost comes natural, right? But you know, when you have to look at it where both walk away are not hurt.
Stephen Watson (30:35.879)
Right.
Stephen Watson (30:39.549)
Mm.
Stephen Watson (30:54.365)
Here's a question I like to pose. Presuming that you are not psychopathic, is it possible to hurt somebody else without hurting yourself?
Andrew Adams (31:09.858)
I would, that's question, yeah, that's an interesting question.
Stephen Watson (31:10.013)
Right. And some people, some people will not show their hurt, right? They will say, hey, I have a rationalization, I have an excuse, I have a reasoning for what happened. And I obviously didn't hurt my knuckles when he punched him. And I'm okay with it, because they're in prison and the world's better. I would say that's a description of somebody who is hurt. Hey, like, yeah. So I like this kind of philosophical question.
Andrew Adams (31:33.591)
Sure.
Stephen Watson (31:39.258)
you can you hurt somebody without hurting yourself? Right?
Andrew Adams (31:42.179)
I I would say physically, yes, I could hurt somebody and not physically hurt myself. But I think for me, the answer would be no. There is going to be mental anguish. There's going to be issues within myself. think, yes, I think the answer is you can't for me. I'm only answering for myself because I'm not a psychopath.
Stephen Watson (31:47.857)
Physically hurt yourself. Sure.
Stephen Watson (32:02.161)
Yes.
Stephen Watson (32:09.319)
Yes, yes, for sure.
Andrew Adams (32:10.056)
I can't hurt someone and not hurt myself.
Stephen Watson (32:13.063)
So then the question is, if I'm trying to be nonviolent with regards to the other person, is there any way I can hurt them that doesn't hurt myself? You've said no. So that takes away the possibility of elbowing them in the carotid, which your ego doesn't want to hear because you've been working on that move and sometimes people deserve it, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So here's, can I share something here? it, were you gonna?
Andrew Adams (32:29.462)
Yep. Yep.
Andrew Adams (32:35.616)
And it looks really good.
Tommy Given (32:36.547)
Can I answer that? So, probably being the closest to a psychopath out of the three of us, I would still have to say no, though. Imagine the amount of the tens of thousands of dollars that I've spent in therapy would have gone to waste, right? I mean, I don't think you can enter a situation
Stephen Watson (32:43.055)
I didn't want to, if you're going to drive the conversation, please Tommy.
Stephen Watson (32:51.87)
Hahaha
Stephen Watson (33:06.854)
Mm-hmm.
Tommy Given (33:06.907)
and be, you know, in the natural and not hurt yourself. mean, yeah. So, you know.
Stephen Watson (33:20.208)
Yeah, these are important questions to consider as martial artists, you know. The notion that I can't, you know, that we're presuming here, we can't hurt somebody else without hurting ourselves, and yet I want to be a self-defender, you know, gives me this idea that, there's something else. One of the things that I think about is that, or this is how I teach my students, you have your kid, they're on the school bus, they get off the school bus and they tell you so-and-so bullied them.
Andrew Adams (33:24.128)
Yeah, I would agree.
Tommy Given (33:34.632)
.
Stephen Watson (33:49.957)
or push them, let's say. And you say, well, make sure you tell the school bus driver, pay attention to him, try and be nice, sit with a different friend. And the next day or the next week, well, the same thing happens. Did you tell the school bus driver? Yeah, I told them before to keep an eye out, but I also told them after. Okay, and you re-equip them with the, you know, set firm boundaries, pay attention, don't stare into your books.
sit somewhere else on the bus, then the third or fourth time, same kind of story. And let's just imagine now that this has happened 85 days in a row, which is I'm exaggerating the number. I think anybody listening to this would say, look on day 85, right? Probably sooner. You're going to say, listen, son, this is how you do a sidekick. What I want you to do sidekick him right in the groin. He'll drop like, you know, right.
And the teaching that I give around this is that
Stephen Watson (34:54.524)
You're actually, you've wanted to hit the bully back through your kid for the whole time from day one. But you realize that you would be the bad guy and your kid would too, right? They would be scorned by society, punished and all the rest. And so the reason that day 85 you said to do it is that at that point, I just picked that number 85. At that point, you're sure that nobody would paint you as the bad guy.
And the only reason you're saying to kick the bully is that you have always wanted to and you think you won't pay for it now because everybody will be on your side. So it's not really a self-defense move. It's an expression of the ego and it's an expression of the ego in the context of how I think I'll be seen by society. But that's not really what you're saying when you teach it. You're saying this is how you teach a lesson. This is how you defend yourself. But that's not really what was taught.
Tommy Given (35:29.575)
you
Andrew Adams (35:34.146)
Interesting.
Stephen Watson (35:53.645)
something else was taught there. And so the reason I teach this is to help people self-examine. Really, you just wanted this from the beginning. You just didn't think you could get away with it. And if we're just responding to our wants, you know, are we becoming masters of ourselves, masters of the martial arts? Are we really understanding human nature? Or are we still the reflexive person that came into the dojo saying, I'm getting bullied, show me how to fight.
Tommy Given (35:53.832)
you
Andrew Adams (35:55.456)
Yeah.
Stephen Watson (36:22.797)
I saw your style of Ishin Rui in a movie. Is there any growth? None of my students has ever wanted to hear that. Ever once.
Tommy Given (36:24.859)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (36:36.034)
That is an interesting take on it and it's gonna lead to some introspection for myself and hopefully for our audience as well. know, what Jeremy and I often talk about, whether you agree with us or not, we hope that it at least gives you something to think about. And I hope that this episode gives you, the audience, something to think about. You know, maybe we said something you completely
Stephen Watson (36:47.759)
Mm-hmm.
Stephen Watson (36:58.479)
Yes.
Andrew Adams (37:05.634)
completely, wholeheartedly disagree with. You can email me at andrew at whistlekick.com. I'd love to hear it. Maybe we said stuff that you agree with completely and you want to tell me you can still email me at andrew at whistlekick.com. I would certainly love to hear from you for sure. Actually, Steve and Tommy, thank you so much for being here. Really, really appreciate it. Every time we get together. It's great. This episode will be airing on
Stephen Watson (37:23.79)
Yeah, keep the dialogue going,
Andrew Adams (37:35.062)
Thursday, November 6th. So if you're listening to this on the day it comes out, Marshall Summit's happening today, it's happening tomorrow, it's happening the next day on Saturday, and it's happening on Sunday. Not too late to make it. Now, unfortunately, if you're listening to this a couple of weeks after it comes out, you'll just have to wait till next year, but we hope we see you there. As a reminder, whistlekick.com to find out about all of the things that we do at Whistlekick. Whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com is where you can go.
Stephen Watson (38:00.439)
I'm Cooper.
Andrew Adams (38:02.476)
to out about this episode and all of our other episodes and get show notes. You can also subscribe to our newsletter so you can hear about every episode as it comes out. Thank you guys so much for being here and as always train hard, smile and have a great day.
Tommy Given (38:13.466)
Thank you.
Stephen Watson (38:19.066)
Thank you.