Episode 1083 - Issues with Martial Arts Titles
In this episode Jeremy and Andrew sit down to discuss some of the issue with using martial arts titles.
Issues with Martial Arts Titles - Episode 1083
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Jeremy Lesniak and Andrew Adams delve into the complexities and issues surrounding traditional martial arts titles. They explore how titles like 'Sensei' and 'Hanshi' vary in meaning and significance across different schools, emphasizing that these titles often hold little value outside their specific contexts. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding the role of titles in teaching and the potential pitfalls of placing too much emphasis on them. Ultimately, the hosts advocate for a more human approach to martial arts, where titles do not create barriers between instructors and students.
TAKEAWAYS
Titles in martial arts often lack universal meaning.
The significance of a title can vary greatly by school.
Understanding the context of titles is crucial.
Titles should not create barriers between instructors and students.
Rank does not necessarily correlate with teaching ability.
Students often work harder to achieve a rank than to maintain it.
Titles can lead to unhealthy hierarchies in martial arts.
It's important to ask 'why' regarding titles and ranks.
Martial arts should foster connection, not division.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Martial Arts Titles
03:00 The Meaning and Significance of Titles
05:58 Variability of Titles Across Schools
08:59 Understanding the Role of Titles in Teaching
11:54 The Importance of Context in Titles
14:59 The Impact of Titles on Student Perception
17:59 Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy Lesniak (01:14.78)
What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick martial arts radio and on today's episode Andrew and I are talking about some of the problems, the issues with traditional martial arts titles. This gets a little close to some material that we've done before but it's actually in a completely different direction because there are even more problems than you might have heard us talk about with these titles in the past. If you don't know me, I'm Jeremy Lesniak. I'm the founder at Whistlekick and
co-host here on martial arts radio with my good friend Andrew Adams, who is also the producer and does all sorts of things. You got a lot of hats, my friend. For the two of us wear a lot of hats, which maybe that's because we don't have any hair. It could be. That would be a good explanation for why we wear so many hats. If you are, if this is your first time putting on the hat as listener or viewer to the show.
Andrew (02:02.019)
That could be, yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (02:13.796)
Thank you for being here. appreciate you spending some time with us. And for all of you, the number one thing we're going to encourage, sign up for our email list. We will email you every time we release an episode. We do two a week. And your inbox will get an email that says, here's the video version. Here's the audio only version. And you can click on those things and you can watch them and you'll never miss an episode. We put some behind the scenes stuff in there as well that you won't want to miss out stuff you're not going to find anywhere else.
To those of you who have done that, to those of you who support us, we appreciate you. Now, Andrew, you and I both come from long careers of traditional martial arts where titles were used a lot.
Andrew (03:00.652)
Yes, very much so.
Jeremy Lesniak (03:03.776)
And I grew up surrounded by these titles, sensei and senpai and shihan were the ones that I knew. And then when I started traveling around and training, I found all these other titles just in the Japanese world. Renchi and hanshi and hohai and shiduin and all these words. Did you also have you had a bunch of those titles around you growing up, right?
Andrew (03:33.367)
So when I first started training in high school, we had sensei and we had co-sensei. And basically if you were a black belt, but not sensei, you were called co-sensei, which, fast forward. I've never heard that term in any other school co-sensei, but, we had sensei, we had co-sensei and we had a few co-sensei and then senpai and the senpai was always just the highest ranked.
Jeremy Lesniak (03:45.5)
Mmm.
Andrew (04:03.469)
student that was not the instructor. And that was what I grew up with as a kid.
Jeremy Lesniak (04:16.636)
Pretty similar, know, that's how we use the title of Senpai. Now, as I went on my martial arts journey and especially because of Whistlekick, I've been exposed to so many schools with so many titles and, you know, all the ones that we've kicked around are Japanese titles. We haven't talked about the Korean titles that I've heard. And what I want to talk about today...
is the fact that those titles, just like rank, mean absolutely nothing outside of a particular school.
Andrew (04:49.1)
Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. And I grew up the same way I grew up all of the three major martial arts styles that I have, uh, you know, a considerable amount of training in is all Japanese titles. So, or Japanese styles. So I've only known those and the school that I'm in or that I was most recently in, uh, as an example, the perfect way to segue into how they're, don't mean anything. There was only.
one senpai for the entire school. And if that person wasn't in class, that person was still senpai and no one else could ever be named senpai. There was only one sensei and one senpai. That's it.
Jeremy Lesniak (05:24.668)
Mmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (05:32.508)
What determined them being senpai? Just the highest rank that wasn't sensei?
Andrew (05:37.035)
Well, yes, he was the first person to receive his black belt from my instructor's instructor and was given the title of Sempai and no one else could ever have that title.
Jeremy Lesniak (05:51.421)
So that sounds like a title that would have to be removed if you stop trading.
Andrew (05:58.493)
Yep. And it was interesting because I never saw this person. He only trained on Saturdays and he only trained in Aikijitsu, which I didn't do any training in. My training was all in karate under the same school, but he was still the senpai and I never saw him. So he was still senpai, just not someone that I ever had any interaction with.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:07.58)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:18.716)
Mmm.
interesting. Yeah, see, and that's a perfect illustration of the fact that that title, it has meaning, just like being a blue belt has meaning. But I see a lot of people arguing about what that title means as if it's transferable. It's not transferable. And I don't think you have to look further than, I mean, depending on where you're training.
Andrew (06:39.496)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:49.532)
I find just as much problem with the term sensei in this way as I do with the term master. Now we've talked on the show, I don't like the term master, grandmaster anyway, so I'm not going to beat those titles up. didn't, didn't we do a whole episode on that? We did. We did. Do you remember what episode number it was?
Andrew (07:01.167)
Yep.
No, but it was like 1050 ish somewhere in there.
Jeremy Lesniak (07:08.444)
Do you want to look while I talk and we can tell them? That'd be great. Thank you. In my school growing up, Sensei was awarded at Second Degree Black Belt. But I have seen other schools that do it at third or fourth. I've seen schools that treat it as an entirely separate thing that
Andrew (07:10.887)
Yeah, I can do that.
Jeremy Lesniak (07:31.214)
Typically you earn that title at that school at second or third degree, but sometimes someone at first degree earns it. Sometimes you don't earn it until fifth degree. And it's a completely disconnected title because it has different meaning for them in their school.
Andrew (07:48.495)
Yeah, and it's it's the same like obviously I've noticed that too Putting pause though that episode was 1065 so it actually wasn't that long ago
Jeremy Lesniak (07:55.579)
Yeah. N65. Okay.
Andrew (07:59.122)
It was back just a month or so ago. But in terms of the title of Sensei, the same. When I was training in Shotokan, you were not allowed to use the title of Sensei until you were third degree black belt. And just because you are awarded your third degree black belt does not mean you get the title of Sensei. It had to be given to you by the instructor.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:26.625)
And I find that really fascinating because
We're using these terms as if they are standardized when they're really just vocabulary.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:43.93)
I think the closest equivalent and I think the place where people would would best understand are
Jeremy Lesniak (08:56.14)
Think of how to collectively refer to them, but like Mr. or Mrs. Or Miss, right? Like if I call you Mr. Adams, that's a sign of respect. It's appropriate in almost every place that we train or hang out, right? I bet, you know, I'm going to guess when you work music with the kids, not calling you Mr. Adams, but you could imagine that in a similar setting, somebody could be called that. You're in a school.
Andrew (08:59.379)
Mm.
Andrew (09:07.727)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (09:13.059)
Yep.
Andrew (09:24.587)
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (09:25.98)
But the principal in that same school is probably also called Mr. and Mrs. There's no hierarchy denoted in the title.
Andrew (09:39.721)
Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (09:42.769)
And I see a lot of people that are working to climb rank. I shouldn't say a lot. I see some people who are very clearly and publicly working to climb rank so they can claim one of these titles. Hanchi is the one that comes to mind most. We seem to have decided in some corners of martial arts
Andrew (09:53.896)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:10.672)
that hanshi means you're the big bad boss, you're a ninth or a tenth degree, and you've made it. You're done. You don't have to work hard anymore.
And I just don't get it.
Andrew (10:26.316)
Yeah, yep. And I think what people need to understand is all of these words, all of these vocabulary terms, they have an actual meaning. And we've talked about it on the show, Sensei. Sensei, the literal translation is not teacher. It is, quote, one who comes before, right? One who has been there before you.
Um, which makes a lot of sense. Um, and you know, getting back to schools that do it differently. So the, Shotokan school, couldn't get the title of Sensei until it was, it was bestowed upon you after you got your third degree black belt. But the last school that I had been training in, when I first started training there, it was made very clear. There will only ever be one Sensei.
in that school. And even though I was a Blackwell and I was teaching classes, I was not allowed to be called Sensei Adams or Sensei Andrew. Like the students knew, you are not allowed to call me Sensei because I'm not the Sensei that's this other person.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:17.916)
Hmm.
Andrew (11:38.141)
Say that one more time?
Jeremy Lesniak (11:39.228)
How did they refer to you?
Andrew (11:41.158)
They just called me Mr. Adams or Andrew. The kids, the kids generally called me Mr. Adams. They, I told the adults just call me Andrew. That's fine. That's my name.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:54.429)
Though I think, here's why I think this matters. This becomes another place, another structure where martial artists are fighting over something that is horrendously unimportant.
Andrew (12:13.199)
Yeah, yep, I would agree.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:15.369)
If you... So, I know you pulled up some other definitions. So, what do you have as the definition of wrenchy there?
Andrew (12:23.326)
So the literal translation of Renchi means polished teacher.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:29.456)
I've also heard it as teacher of teachers. is that she hung?
Andrew (12:32.16)
no, that's so interesting. That's hanshi actually han the han is the definition of han is an example or model and she can denote a gentleman or samurai or scholar so it would be a teacher of gentlemen samurai scholar teacher of teachers or an exemplary teacher
Jeremy Lesniak (12:37.219)
Jeremy Lesniak (12:57.519)
Okay.
I've still heard it defined in that way.
Andrew (13:02.523)
Yeah, me too.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:07.65)
If you are a polished teacher, does that necessarily mean
Rank? No, of course not. I've known some very polished teachers who ended up kind of getting stuck over to the side and didn't promote.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:28.08)
They still know what they're doing. They're still great instructors. In fact, I've trained at schools where the person in charge, the highest rank, will often defer to someone who is a lower rank because they have more time in that material or they came in from another school with some other education or maybe they teach something as their day job and they're just a better teacher.
Andrew (13:54.594)
Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:57.437)
I think if we're going to put any kind of importance on the title, needs two things need to happen. I think we need to cut it away from rank. Maybe there are guidelines. Maybe in a particular school, there is some correlation. At first degree, you're a senpai. At second degree, you're a sensei. At third degree, maybe fourth degree, you're a red sheet. Personally, I don't care. if a school has that structure, that's great.
But I think what matters far more is that everyone understands what the meanings of things.
Andrew (14:35.179)
Yeah. Yep. And it can't be standardized because we don't live in a world where martial arts is standardized. My school is going to do things completely different from your school. So I think it's fine if your school wants to award the title of Renchi to fifth degree black belts and my school
Jeremy Lesniak (14:48.635)
Yeah.
Andrew (14:59.394)
as an example, wants to award it at fourth, that's fine. Because our schools do things completely differently anyway, but I think it's important that everybody understand what those ranks or those rather those titles, because they're not ranks, what those titles mean. And it's coherent within your school.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:19.228)
The most important question to ask when you're talking about rank or title or curriculum or drill or promote anything is why. And if you can answer the why in a way that it makes sense, that is consistent with your school's culture, with the other components, then it's good. It does not matter what someone else's school is doing.
Andrew (15:28.453)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:44.221)
There I've flirted with this idea of making up completely different a completely different belt rank system You know Where they get lighter right you start as a black belt and you go to a you work down to get to a white belt Because I don't know you're more pure I don't know something
Andrew (15:58.661)
Hmm.
Andrew (16:07.142)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:08.792)
Would it change anything? It might make intro classes a little complex. Here's a black belt, right? We'd have to explain some things. But beyond that, no, it has nothing to do with it. Because when I put down the belt, when I take off the uniform, when people refer to me as something or something else, it doesn't change a darn thing about who I am and what I'm capable of, both with my own skills and my ability to to instruct. It's all the same. It's
Andrew (16:16.516)
Yeah.
Andrew (16:35.147)
Mm. Yep. Correct. Yeah. No, I'm agreeing with you. Like, you're right. It's all the same. It doesn't make a difference.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:38.79)
Go ahead.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:45.308)
It's like military rank.
Why is it there to help understand the hierarchy and everything else and the way you know, this is perfect example. I don't know why I didn't think of this before my understanding. I have not served. I'm not not claiming otherwise, but my understanding is that there are some military titles that mean that that You could rough out seniority differently Depending on the branch in the US military Now maybe I'm wrong
Andrew (17:15.831)
Mm. Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak (17:20.112)
But even if I'm wrong there, does it mean the same thing in the US Army versus the Army in another country? Does some title mean the same thing in US Army and the Japanese Air Force?
Well, you know, maybe you're strong arming translations to get there, right? But the point is.
Andrew (17:38.82)
That's what it all boils down to it it really doesn't matter if if you have if I'm given the title of Renchi does it make me a better teacher? No
Jeremy Lesniak (17:44.508)
Don't worry about it.
Jeremy Lesniak (17:59.801)
If anything, it probably makes you less of a teacher. I think more people are going to set back after receiving a title or a promotion of some sort than are going to charge forward because of it. know. And here's the proof. How many students do you know they get close to a rank promotion and they're working harder because they want to do well at their test and then they pass their tests and then
Andrew (18:04.141)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (18:28.397)
and a late doe.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:29.272)
and then they're not working as hard or maybe they even take a break.
Andrew (18:33.218)
Yep. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:34.832)
We work harder to get than we do to keep.
Andrew (18:38.038)
Very good point.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:41.114)
And then the last thing I'll say on this.
And I understand that there are differences in. Alter around this. But if someone tells me I need to refer to them by such and such a title and I've met them in a personal setting.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:00.496)
that just told me something about them.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:06.468)
We don't need to hide behind these titles. They're not... If your title is a barrier, if it's a boundary between you and anyone else, you're missing the point. Martial arts should bring you together.
Andrew (19:18.134)
Yeah. Yep. No, I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. If I go to a class taught by Grandmaster Schmoe. Okay. I have no problem when I'm in class, if he wants me to call him Grandmaster Schmoe, know, Grandmaster, it's nice to see you. Thank you. Whatever. But if I meet him at the supermarket and he has a problem with me just calling him, Hey Joe, how are you today? Like, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:44.365)
because his name is Joe Schmo. Right. Yeah, yeah.
Andrew (19:48.003)
I'm glad you put that together. And if he has a problem, it's like, excuse me, it's Grandmaster Shmo. It's like, I don't get that. I don't get it.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:59.185)
Are you the Grandmaster of Produs?
Andrew (20:01.885)
maybe he is.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:02.68)
Maybe he is. Maybe, maybe he is so good at developing new species of rutabaga that his local ag extension has awarded him the first time ever an honorary title, honorary award title of Grandmaster. He happens to be Grandmaster in two ways. Now, now if that's true, by all means,
Andrew (20:14.371)
Mmm.
Andrew (20:24.396)
of produce.
Wow, okay, that could be.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:32.22)
behind his back, I'm going to call him Grandmaster Rutabaga. But I'm probably going to refer to some other people as Grandmaster Rutabaga now, because that's funny. But the point being, it's a contextual title.
Andrew (20:32.247)
you
You
Jeremy Lesniak (20:47.836)
If you, and this probably starts to repeat some material from before, from that other episode, if you are so afraid of putting down a title to be a human around your students outside of training, you are setting them up for failure. It's not healthy.
Andrew (20:48.226)
Yep.
Andrew (21:07.028)
Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, and it's putting, you're asking your students to put you on a pedestal, which we have absolutely done an episode on and how you should not put your instructors on pedestals. And if you are requiring them to call you a title outside of the dojo or the dojang or your school or whatever, you, you are asking your students to put you on a pedestal.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:31.356)
All right. think we should end it here. And if people want to go deeper, they can go back to that other episode. What was it? 1065. 1065. Thank you, as always, to those of you out there for joining us. And if you disagree, we want to hear it. There are so many places. Basically, wherever you watch or listen to this show, you have an opportunity to comment. You could reply to those emails, those twice a week emails that send you everything and tell us how you feel.
Andrew (21:37.431)
Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:58.672)
And if you're watching or listening on Spotify or Apple or YouTube, you can do that there as well.
Andrew, thanks for being here. Appreciate you. And remember, go sign up for those emails. You should be able to find a link where you can find it at whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com, but you should also see it in the show notes.
And until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.
Andrew (22:24.066)
Train hard, smile, and have a great day.