Episode 1082 - Robert Frankovich
In this episode Jeremy chats with Robert Frankovich about his journey from Tae Kwon Do into Aikido and sword arts.
Robert Frankovich - Episode 1082
SUMMARY
In this episode, Robert Frankovich shares his extensive journey through martial arts, beginning with Taekwondo and transitioning to Aikido and sword training. He discusses his teaching philosophy, emphasizing the importance of problem-solving in martial arts and adapting techniques to suit students' abilities. Robert reflects on the demographics of his students, the purpose behind teaching martial arts, and how his methods have evolved over time. He also shares insights on the social aspects of martial arts training and the significance of community within the practice. This conversation explores the multifaceted world of martial arts, focusing on the importance of socialization, the application of Aikido principles in everyday life, and the evolution of teaching methods. The speakers discuss how creating a fun and engaging training environment can enhance retention and learning, while also looking towards the future of martial arts training and the preservation of its heritage.
TAKEAWAYS
Teaching philosophy emphasizes blending techniques from different martial arts.
Robert believes in teaching everything, even techniques he struggles with.
Adapting teaching methods is crucial for accommodating students' abilities.
Applying martial arts principles can aid in problem-solving in daily life.
Training should be enjoyable and engaging for students.
The importance of socialization among martial arts practitioners.
Basics in martial arts serve as the foundation for advanced techniques.
Creating a community around martial arts fosters deeper learning.
Future training should focus on practical applications rather than rote memorization.
Preserving martial arts heritage is crucial for future generations.
Teaching methods should evolve to meet the needs of students.
Less is often more when it comes to teaching forms and techniques.
CHAPTERS
00:00 The Journey Begins: Early Martial Arts Experiences
03:13 Transitioning to Aikido: A New Perspective
05:59 The Influence of Sword Training
09:04 Teaching Philosophy: Blending Techniques
11:58 Understanding Student Demographics
14:49 The Purpose of Teaching Martial Arts
18:04 Problem Solving in Martial Arts
21:08 Adapting Teaching Methods Over Time
24:11 Reflections on Early Martial Arts Days
28:15 The Impact of Socialization in Martial Arts
31:57 Applying Aikido Principles Beyond the Mat
33:31 The Evolution of Teaching and Learning in Martial Arts
39:14 Creating a Fun and Engaging Training Environment
44:00 Looking Ahead: The Future of Martial Arts Training
49:30 Preserving Martial Arts Heritage and Knowledge
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Show Transcript
Jeremy Lesniak (04:55.834)
Hey, what's happening, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick, a martial arts radio. I'm Jeremy Lesniak joined by today's Robert Frankovich. Robert, thank you for being here. I appreciate your time. And to all of you out there, if you're new to the show, or even if you're not new to the show, make sure you check out whistlekick, martialartsradio.com for everything that Rob and I are going to talk about today. All the, if there's anything we're going to link, it's going to go there. If you want a transcript of this episode, it's going to be there. And...
If you want to make sure that you've got the easiest way of getting every single episode, because we do two a week, it's sign up for the email list. We're going to email you video and audio links right in your inbox. Every time the episode comes out, boom, you'll have it right there. You don't have to go find it. This episode, like many of our episodes, is sponsored by Kotaro. Thank you to Kotaro for helping us continue to get this done. K-A-T-A-A-R-O dot com. They make some of the best belts at other things. Well, they do make the best belts for sure.
And a lot of the other stuff they make is awesome too. You can check out everything that they've got. Great gifts, they do gift wrapping, they have wholesale accounts. Go find them at Kataro.com and thank you again to Kataro for your support. And thank you Rob for being here on Martial Arts Radio.
Robert Frankovich (06:13.01)
Thank you for inviting me.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:14.522)
Of of course, I appreciate your time. You know, lately, I tend to go in these phases. And the phase that I'm in right now is, instead of just thinking, I don't know how to start the show, because it's the hardest part for me, I've been telling the guests, I don't know how to start the show. So I'm gonna ask you, in a conversation about you as a martial artist, where do we start? Do we start at the obvious point of the beginning, or is there some midway point?
that seems more appropriate.
Robert Frankovich (06:48.742)
beginning is good. The story has been a good, standard, steady one for 45 years.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:55.472)
Okay, what's the beginning of your martial arts journey look like?
Robert Frankovich (07:00.23)
knowing that I needed to train after watching all the good shows, know, Green Hornet, Batman, Kung Fu, all that kind of thing. And racking my brain trying to find a place to train. Finally, a community ed class opened up nearby. I grew up in Chisholm, Minnesota, way up north. Hibbing is 10 minutes away. They offered a class. I found it, fell in love with it. It was Taekwondo at the time. And, uh,
real sport oriented taekwondo where I've now drifted away from the sport so much and looking more at the actual analysis of movements and techniques and applications and that kind of thing. Because now I am 45 years older and need to move better and be smarter. From there I stayed with them for 22 years and then found Aikido also.
1990, I finished the law enforcement schooling up there and realized that punching and kicking people if I had to be dealing with them physically as a cop probably wouldn't go over well. And I found the Aikido school, found throwing people around, it was a lot more fun. Moved through the ranks there decently, quickly because of the background otherwise. One of the little stories on that one, First time the teacher called me up to be the demonstrator with him.
say, okay, throw a punch, know, and we are gonna do this technique from it. Well, he was used to his students who don't do hard style arts. So they didn't necessarily throw a real punch. They just punched at him. I hit him. After he stopped stumbling five steps back, he looks at them and says, that's what happens if you don't get out of the way. And then just kept going, you know, at which one of the parts that came from the Aikido was end well. If that's not what you intended it to be.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:49.208)
Yeah.
Robert Frankovich (08:58.405)
make it look like it was. end well. That was 1990 when I started there, 2005 I found a Korean sword. Been doing that since also. So that one comes from the idea too, it's not a sport idea or a flash idea. It's more, I can find a stick, a baseball bat, a golf club, and use it like a sword a lot easier than carrying other weapons around.
Jeremy Lesniak (09:25.338)
Did the desire for sword come out of the Aikido training?
Robert Frankovich (09:33.124)
Probably in the background, way back, I think it was 80, 81, there was a movie called The Challenge, where an American boxer was asked to bring a family sword back to Japan because they were a matched set of long swords by this family. And going through back and seeing some of the sword work there and how it had honor to it and, you know, real presence as a weapon.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:01.167)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (10:02.852)
Plus everyone does a staff, everyone does non-checks. Those are boring. There's a lot more.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:14.416)
So, banging yourself in the back of the head with a nunchaku is pretty much the opposite of boring.
Robert Frankovich (10:18.167)
Yeah
Robert Frankovich (10:22.647)
Then they had done that too, played with that, But it's not that they're bad weapons, but they're too sport-oriented, fiddling at the moment. I had a guy who was doing Aikido with me for a while who was part of a real big sports school. he was doing it. His staff form used the little tapered toothpick staff. And he was a big guy. He was 6'3", 280.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:24.174)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:51.472)
Does it look right?
Robert Frankovich (10:51.593)
And he went to do it, no, down on top of it, wearing a hakama. And he took a big step to do the strike to the side of the head. He got there, top hand staff, top of the staff went flying at the judges, snapped it right off halfway down. It's like, yeah, that's not good. So, then when they start using it, when they're...
They can't call it a bull. They have to call it by two words, which mean same thing. That's just a pet peeve.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:27.994)
Well, so Andrew, who you've emailed with, Andrew has this as a pet peeve as well. I have a pet peeve with people having a pet peeve with it. Because if you say, Bo, in the context of martial arts, do you mean the stick or bow and arrow? I think that's why, right, but I think that that's why people started calling it a Bo staff.
Robert Frankovich (11:43.379)
stick.
Robert Frankovich (11:50.272)
And they should have just let go off and called it a stab.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:53.463)
I agree, but people don't listen to me.
Robert Frankovich (11:55.395)
You know, no, they don't listen to me either. But when we're out in the boat and somebody makes comments, you know, I'm mixed at a seminar and people are talking and that they come up with that and which I refused to even say. So I'm up with that and I look at them and my students look at me to see the reaction on my face and just cringing on the inside and leave it alone.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:22.094)
You know what I think I might do? Because I'm, I'm this, you're the fourth of four recordings today. So I'm a little, I'm a little punchy. Don't take it personally. I might, cause, cause there is a growing body of people who like you find irritation with calling it a Bo staff. I may start calling it a Bo staff stick.
Robert Frankovich (12:40.45)
I might follow you on that one.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:44.268)
I think, you know, because I think it works for everybody. It's very clear, but there's also an element of sarcasm there.
Robert Frankovich (12:51.468)
Yep, yep, and sarcasm is good.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:53.988)
sarcasm does make the world go round.
Robert Frankovich (12:58.338)
Yeah, I like that.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:02.072)
Okay, so now that I've completely derailed everything you were saying, I apologize. Taekwondo, Aikido, Kumdo? Is that how you say that? Kumdo?
Robert Frankovich (13:05.634)
Nope, that's fine.
Robert Frankovich (13:14.666)
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:20.194)
Whenever we have people, almost everybody who's come on the show cross-drains.
But I find that when I talk to people who cross-train, some people keep things in their boxes and they'll say, you know, I see how this relates to this, but they do, you know, I'm going to keep my Aikido true. I'm going to keep my Kondo true. I'm going to keep my Taekwondo true. Are you a box person or do you just, you know, let it all blur together?
Robert Frankovich (13:45.42)
I'm a box person for teaching and presenting. If it's stuff where I am gonna do, the joke I say is, if I have to protect myself, I'm gonna do Aikido. Because it's gonna be a mix of the Aikido, a mix of the Aikido, because it's what works for me. I'm one that, the Bruce Lee tape what works, disregard the rest. And I agree with that from what would personally work for me.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:49.018)
Okay.
Robert Frankovich (14:13.868)
But I've always believed that if I did that and then taught it that way, whatever I don't do well or don't like, I don't teach so you don't get to see it and find out if it works good for you. So I teach everything, even if I'm horrible at that technique. And then I explain why you're still getting it and why I may not do it. From there, you develop your art, which is what you need to do. Your understanding, your depth of knowledge for you and how you move. But you can then present everything.
for that whole curriculum to someone else, which is how it continues on and actually lives better.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:56.868)
when you're teaching these things, do you Tuesdays or Aikido and Wednesdays or Taekwondo, do you do it like that? Completely separate.
Robert Frankovich (15:09.258)
Separate class times, but not separate days. Like right now I've got the Ticondo Monday through Thursday. Monday, Wednesday, they're at seven. Tuesday, Thursday, they're at six. And sort or opposite them right now. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:26.788)
how many of your students are training in more than one?
Robert Frankovich (15:31.423)
less than half
Jeremy Lesniak (15:35.29)
But that's still a good chunk.
Robert Frankovich (15:35.55)
Big part of that though is, yeah, yeah. And the bigger part of that though is the average age in my school is 25. It's not 12.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:38.756)
That's pretty cool.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:46.616)
Wow. Okay. Do you run kids and adults separately?
Jeremy Lesniak (15:53.316)
What's your minimum age?
Robert Frankovich (15:55.679)
8 for our taekwondo, 12 for sword.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:58.073)
Okay. And how many, how many eight-year-olds are in your Taekwondo program?
Robert Frankovich (16:04.287)
There had been three. As school got going here, it disappeared for a while.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:07.182)
Okay, so it's.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:12.75)
Yeah, interesting. here's the question, because there are people out there and actually this was this still is our school is more adults than youth, but it's it's it's evening out. And I'm not entirely sure how we got there. Do you know how you got there that most of your students are adults?
Robert Frankovich (16:37.854)
Well, I started teaching back in 86 as part of the UMD, UMD, Louis P E prep class. So I started adults that way and that's where my, my lecture level tends to be. The kids have to have a bit more of an attention span. They have to have a bit more adult time. They've spent time, more time with adults.
So understand how to communicate with adults. There we go. And if they can do that, then they can understand the lectures and see what I'm trying to get them to do. I'm not one that likes the idea of kids classes so much because it ends up being too much just gymnastics and playing around. And it's not about doing martial arts. So my personality prevents a bunch of the kids classes. Now, if I had a student who wanted to run
four to eight year olds, four to seven year olds in the class and they do it, they'd have my full support on it. I just don't do well that way. I do best working with high schoolers and that.
Jeremy Lesniak (17:47.909)
And I think it's important that we know who we want to teach. There are people out there who, I know unfortunately there are schools out there that don't want to teach kids and see kids as a necessary evil in their student roles for the financial side of it. But I've always felt that if you're really clear on who you want to teach and you knock those classes out of the park, you'll get more of those people. And it sounds like that's what you're doing.
Robert Frankovich (18:12.646)
Yeah, yep. There's this. And there's a school in Henderson, Nevada, engaged martial arts. They have figured out the. The motor skill development and the leadership pieces that they can take the four year olds and get them going by the time they're seven or eight into the full program. There's straight on ready to go keeps up with everything.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:41.206)
that's cool.
Robert Frankovich (18:41.413)
but they teach them behaviors and the mannerisms and the part like that, which is what they focus on. That's not me. They do great. They're one of the only commercial schools, real commercial schools that I appreciate and can work with.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:00.322)
is teaching your primary job.
Robert Frankovich (19:05.063)
I'm a qualified yes. I have to some other stuff just to make sure there's a little more money coming in. I'm not building a career in the other part of it. I'm trying to build it's teaching.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:29.54)
debating on how to ask this question. I'm going to ask it and then I'm going to qualify why I'm asking it this way. Why are you teaching martial arts? Because anybody who has taught martial arts professionally knows it is a great way to put a bunch of time in and make a little bit of money.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:48.676)
Right? the audience. Roughly, sorry, go ahead. I'm stepping on your answer.
Robert Frankovich (19:49.122)
because it needs it.
because it needs to be done. It's something that is within me that I didn't know was within me until I actually started training and doing little parts like getting done with high school, high school athletics, all that kind of stuff. Barely skim the books, doing the grades. Pass with a low B average, you know, get to college.
Yeah, the smallest guy in the football team was bigger than me and he was the punter. You know, it's like, nope, that kind of stuff's done. Good thing I found some of the tick-ponder to do. Then it was, huh, I never studied in high school because I didn't need to. could figure out the answers. Problem solving works really well, but now I need to problem solve to learn how to not fail out of college. To do that, I can learn a form in a night. I can do the work to have.
all of the academics done also. So I was only ever a mediocre athlete. I wasn't the star or anything like that. I got the jobs that had more problem solving in them, like the center. How do you snap the ball and block? How do you do long snapping and that kind of thing and not get knocked over? And know, so guys didn't want to do that. Fine, I'll do it. Figure out how to make it work and not get in trouble for it.
And that's the problem solving that comes in martial arts is what made me need to teach it now that I'm looking at it. Randy King is up in Canada. He's one of the reality based self-defense people that I've trained with and worked with. And his comment is self-defense is high speed problem solving. And when you look at, when you look at boxing, they call it the sweet science for a reason because every time I move, I change the problem for you, which lets me solve it the way I want to by hitting you. You know, so if you move and I can solve where you went to before you can actually get what you want to do, I get hit less, which is only beneficial. So the problem solving and where a lot of my work then turns is
Jeremy Lesniak (00:12.867)
Health defense is nice to problem solving.
Robert Frankovich (00:42.476)
The sword in that is a bit more intellectual in work also because you have to have angles and cut lines and all of that kind of thing and make sure that you're doing it right so you don't die second because that's not winning.
Take that into your daily life, how to customer service people need to use it. If you're problem solving, you're problem solving. The arena doesn't matter. The skills are still the same.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:14.851)
doesn't matter the skills are still the same. I like that. That hit. That's why I'm processing that. Okay.
Robert Frankovich (01:23.904)
And that's where one of the other concepts that comes in there, if you haven't had it before, is the OODA loop. Observe, orient, decide, and act. You see what's coming at you.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:37.379)
That's a common acronym in the self-defense world.
Robert Frankovich (01:40.91)
Yeah, time in one. And it comes from fighter pilots originally, the Colonel in the Air Force created it after he found out our pilots were losing dog fights. You so it's, he developed it, worked on it. Basically it's, want to keep you in the observe and orient part of the work so I can decide and act. If you can't get to make a decision.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:46.63)
I didn't...
Jeremy Lesniak (01:54.541)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (02:07.779)
Mmm.
Robert Frankovich (02:10.987)
I can have control of what's happening. you see that, quarterbacks have that. They talk going through their progressions, but it's like, look at that and I can't do that. I look at that, can't do that. I look at that, I can do that. And it's the same OODA loop. Take it and put it into daily life. I have this problem. Okay. From previous experiences in customer service.
When people say this, we've done this and this and this and this. There, I solved the problem for you.
Robert Frankovich (02:48.045)
The physical training is just the benefit.
Jeremy Lesniak (02:53.897)
You've brought up football a few times.
Did you play in college? That ended in high school for you.
Robert Frankovich (02:59.949)
No, like I said, yeah, like, yeah, but like I said, when the punter was bigger than I am, he was the smallest guy in the field.
Jeremy Lesniak (03:12.795)
You strike me as someone who is going to pull from everything that they do, just based on what you've talked about today. What did you pull from football into martial arts?
Robert Frankovich (03:29.18)
I don't know. As far as playing it, it was probably some of the athleticism, if anything, that way. Because I wasn't coached. The coaching of the game is so much bigger now, even down into high school. You've got high school kids that are outstanding in what they do. Back in high school in the late 70s, yeah, was here, run this plate, block this guy, then that was kind of the end of it.
But having some of the athleticism, the concepts of balance and angles and things that carried over that my brain didn't recognize until you just asked this question.
Jeremy Lesniak (04:13.547)
You use the word lecture a couple of times in talking about your classes. Do you have defined, you know, this is lecture time. I'm going to talk to you for five minutes in a block.
Robert Frankovich (04:25.684)
No, no, just that it's if it's a lesson, it's being it's a lecture Yeah, is it as it's as it's done to the group as it's done individually then it's teaching and developing so I'm one that likes to have Use words specifically Because I don't just talk in class talk could be meandering back and forth about nothing and does I'm lecturing about whatever and
Jeremy Lesniak (04:38.211)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (04:55.528)
It goes, my lesson plans, I don't have any until I see who shows up tonight and what they're playing with before class. And then that'll give me an idea of what to work on for the group. And that'll have a lecture because it'll be intended for that topic. That technique, that form, that something that way. But otherwise then it's just go through basics, run stuff and start working individually with them. And we go.
Jeremy Lesniak (05:31.24)
What's changed in the way you teach versus years ago when you started?
Robert Frankovich (05:41.163)
That's where the fun really, really begins. Both my hips are 20 years old now. My knees are seven and my right shoulder's two. So I have one OEM joint. But yeah, could go there. There's just no motorized parts to give me the extra strength. But as I was getting...
Jeremy Lesniak (05:59.043)
I'm call you Steve Austin.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:07.011)
.
Robert Frankovich (06:10.922)
sore and hurt and felt wrong before I figured out what the problems were and got them fixed. I had to move differently to keep up with students in class or in my own workouts. So I've found three or four or five different ways and how to move to something through something based on what hurt, what didn't hurt, you know, and parts like that. So I've got a 73 year old student
Who's six, three, played basketball back in the day, but things are starting to stiff up not stiffen up a bit now. So how do I get him to be able to do and say, okay, my knees didn't want to work. I had to do this. I'll give him this idea and start developing that. So people are getting taught to their level of abilities, not held back because they don't have capabilities, which becomes the part of.
I don't want a school that when the kids I have all the kids in class and they go to graduate from high school and they're gone It should be a lifelong thing for everyone But if you can't adjust how they can move So they can do it for a lifetime Then you're losing out on and you're missing the point
Jeremy Lesniak (07:30.795)
And I agree. This is one of the things that I think early instructors have a difficult time with. Do you have strategies? know, is there any? Well, maybe you even have assistant instructors that you're educating against this way.
Robert Frankovich (07:48.561)
Yeah, they all get all of it. It's as we do a drill in class as the group as the class. It's like, okay, those of you are struggling here, try it this way, try it that way. And then the whole class can play with it in the next few repetitions. And if nothing else, they've seen me do it, heard me teach it. Yeah. And if I, and then I'll bring in, it's like, over here in moment, please. Okay. Do this. There's the textbook.
because you're 20 and you're not broken yet. That's what the textbook looks like for any of those. Don't do the ugly version that I do because I can't do that version anymore. So work to your capabilities. Challenge yourself to do the best versions of them. Don't take it easy because you see my stance higher than yours, but I can't do those anymore, so that's unfair to you.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:54.583)
We started this episode talking about your beginning and kind of want to go back to that. So let's imagine we have a timeline. You know, we filled in a lot of context about you and some of the things that you've done. But let's imagine this is a TV series, you know, where, where do we go in the timeline that is you and maybe what are some of the bigger stories that we should tell?
Robert Frankovich (09:27.146)
the unfortunate part about that for the stories is that there's not a lot of extra from the early days in 1980 down to 1990 ish because there weren't a lot of other events. We did tournaments in Duluth, twice a year at all kinds of fun, you know, that kind of thing. But there weren't, there wasn't anything outstanding because I was still in so much awe of those.
Those people are higher ranked than I was. They've been around for ages. I came through the Karate North system and Tom Sullivan, head of Karate North, had five Nidus and Sparrow Garden in full time-touch stuff. But I had never got to see anything because I came in after he had stopped doing that. You know, so it's like, cool. What? And a bunch of this stuff then probably would have started, it had the good stories.
90s with the Aikido, that ended up having a social group along with the training. taekwondo people, the taekwondo tends to, tended to not socialize a lot other than after a tournament. And I wasn't, I wasn't socially enough at that time to find out who to hang out with. But the Aikido group, went up on Thursday night class, everyone went to the pub afterward.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:33.923)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (10:54.634)
and hung out for a couple hours again and socialized. So that changed a lot of the viewpoint and what I looked at for commercial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:04.161)
What does that do for the culture?
schools and school owners seem very polarized on this. And carve out for a moment whether or not the instructor should be part of these social gatherings, because it's a whole different subject. With the psycheto group, you're all socializing after classes. What did that do for retention? Did people stick around longer?
Robert Frankovich (11:32.709)
Especially a college group. at University of Minnesota Duluth and University of Wisconsin Superior. They're sister cities right across the harbor from each other. And since I taught college, the UWS class was at night. It seven to eight thirty, Tuesday and Thursday nights. Eight thirty, we'd go over to the student union, have a late dinner. Anyone who wanted to hang out talked. We regularly closed it when it got to midnight.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:34.211)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (12:02.092)
and had great conversations. And it covered everything then from tabletop Aikido to applying the principles to academics, how to get your homework done better, relationships through balancing things and all that.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:18.157)
Can you say, if I'm cutting you off, if you were going to keep going, please come back to this. But applying Aikido to your homework?
Robert Frankovich (12:28.548)
Again, it goes back to the problem solving. You grab my wrist, you have my wrist. If I can figure out how to work around that point right there and do something, I can throw you. If I get stuck on that point, I get stuck there and you have control. So it gave the opportunity to use the terms used in a different setting.
We do this to get off the line of attack. Well, your homework assignment is due tomorrow. There's the line of attack. How are you going to get off that line so you can get the problem solved? know, Gobransen Sensei and Blut made the comment that people learn in three levels. First, physically. They get beat up by everything until they figure out what it is and how it works and all that kind of thing. Then it becomes emotionally.
You have depth of feeling for whatever you're doing or what's happening. And then spiritually, you have that understanding of how it affects your life and why you want to do it, how you can help others that they can get passed into better also.
Robert Frankovich (13:49.474)
Now, ever since Aikido back in 90, my world is 90, 85 % Aikido all day. Just looking at the different principles. Unification of mind and body from Tui-Chi-Toi-E. You can keep your center. You can get through things. Sumo's are bottom heavy. Are wide on the bottom. Why? Because pyramids are hard to tip over.
You're centered, you're set steady, your weight is down, your energy is down. If that energy comes up, your bodybuilder, wide shoulders, narrow waist, you can tip over easier. Now, all that kind of thing in the analogy side of it lets you visualize where are you in walking around doing everything all day.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:46.519)
I'm going back to that statement that your life is 85 or 90%. I think those were the numbers you used, Aikido.
Robert Frankovich (14:52.545)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:54.529)
And that's really interesting to me. What I'm wondering, what I'm thinking of now is could I say that my life is that percent martial arts? I think I can say that. I think I agree. I've never thought of it in that way before.
Robert Frankovich (15:08.928)
And those who train for the art and the development and learning probably do. The other one that I use on it, control the first move is one of the principles of Aikido. So I'm driving down the freeway and I see the car on the entry ramp. Control the first move. Do I slow down and let them in or do I speed up and make them pull in behind me? I'm controlling what's happening. So I'm solving the problem right there.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:16.099)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (15:39.475)
because how many people actually watch as they come down the entry ramp and they want ramp and they want to merge, you know? So paying attention to that and applying those, when do you speed up, when do you slow down, when do you move over? And people around you have no clue you did that for them and they're not affected by anything.
and then you're not cursing at people because humans are stupid.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:10.775)
Where do we go next in your journey? And again, it doesn't have to be chronological.
Robert Frankovich (16:16.03)
Stop.
Well, like I was going on, one of the pieces that went with the Aikido is having the actual chance to do seminars in camps for the first time. That's not a big thing on the taekwondo side. You go to a seminar for a day and train with someone and try to bring something back, but these are, the Aikido ones had weekend long and week long camps. And now you get to spend...
Jeremy Lesniak (16:31.469)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Frankovich (16:47.676)
24 hours a day with them for two or three, four days. Watching the way different people respond to energy and how they flinch when they shouldn't be flinching. A buddy of mine went with me to California for my second down and test in Aikido. And part of the test is around Dori. You get three or four people on the other side. You holler and bow.
All of them attack you all at the same time. Okay, your job is to survive. And I was glad that my buddy didn't run on my Rondori because when I watched him do another testers, he was an old linebacker. So from Seiza, the kneeling seated position is basically a four point stance for a football player. He shot out of that, was across the room.
Jeremy Lesniak (17:41.443)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Frankovich (17:45.308)
before the testing guy had lifted his head up from the bow. And all I could hear is, oh crap, and the guy ducks his head back down and Kevin goes over top. And it's like, that was the initiation of this randori. And it was awesome. And that's where stories began to come from for me and really developed the rest of the martial arts side of it. Because I wasn't a sport oriented person, I played games to play games and have fun.
I didn't really care if I won or lost because that didn't mean anything. Sofias get dusty and dirty and all the rest. That's the takeaway from it. But having the group dynamic helping build you and helping push you from the Aikido started to make more sense and have more fun and actually learn deeper as you got to be around people. Which then brought to the sword.
My sword introduction was a 10 form weekend during my fifth Dante Quando test. The again out there to test and it's like you're to learn these sword forms first. Cool. I was wanting to, but why? Because you are okay. And I brought a partner along to be thrown around during my test and he and I learned 10 forms.
They were horrible and ugly because there wasn't a lot of extra instruction for it. When we got back from that weekend, we started making notes, writing down, snooping around, and we found a connection with one of the organizations and joined. So started teaching SORD officially in 2005, back here. then, let's bring in the teacher we using at the time is from Ohio. So it's like, bring her in for seminar.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:31.478)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (19:39.721)
Okay, and I set it up just like I learned from Aikido. Training times, training times, then after training Saturday for all day, everyone goes out to dinner and socializes and hangs out. And then Sunday morning is one last training before everyone leaves to get home for work the next day. In 2010, I changed to a teacher in Utah, a Marine. Really cool guy, really very, very excellent talent. And
Brought him in and did the same thing. And we went off to seminar dinner and he's sitting around looking around. You mean everyone's coming out? What's this? And it took him a bit to get used to the idea because he had like a Tijuana mindset for that. Only he and I would go out there. He and I with a couple of my seniors, you know, and little, the small group after I trained with him for 10 years and
Actually longer than that. 12 years. And after the fourth or fifth seminar, because they had him come on twice a year, he's going, this is so much better. I like this now. I'm glad you did this. You know, because then he actually got relaxed and he didn't have to keep on his teacher mode even when he was at dinner. So he was relaxing and it is. Yeah. But then being the Marine, when he ran the seminar, I have the
Jeremy Lesniak (21:02.115)
It's exhausting.
Robert Frankovich (21:09.686)
most nerdy geeky group of students. They're much more that than athletics, athletes that way. But it plays into the story then. He worked us and he worked us hard. We're in an old elementary school that had the mercury vapor lights, the ones that take 10 minutes to warm up. September seminar, there's 95 outside, we're inside. There's no air conditioning in the schools because there's no schools, no.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:27.971)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Frankovich (21:38.519)
schools operating in the summers. Yeah, we blew out the lights, made it so hot in there that we flipped the breaker. That was the, that was the color belt training. After a half an hour when they came back on, he bowed out the color belts, brought the black belts in. 45 minutes, an hour into the, nope, nope, just a little meditating, not sword swinging though.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:44.769)
Wow. that's cool.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:56.779)
Were you training in the dark? okay.
Jeremy Lesniak (22:03.211)
Okay, I thought, you know, most martial arts I could see making that work, Sword in the Dark seems a little ambitious.
Robert Frankovich (22:10.74)
Yeah, you know, no, we relaxed and meditated a little bit, not formally. But then the black belt class came in 45 minutes to an hour or so later, the black belt class swept the breaker again. So that's how hard we had, that saying, you don't need puddles, you weren't training hard enough. The floor was, we worked that hard. It was awesome. And
Jeremy Lesniak (22:33.379)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (22:38.356)
That is the important part kind of training as long as the rest of the principles and concepts are developed and understood also.
Yep.
I, and I, to this day, I still love one of the comments he made when he got there, working that hard, people are starting to fizzle out, goes embrace the sock.
Just, you know you gotta do it, just do it. Okay, then we go.
So lots of fun.
Jeremy Lesniak (23:11.029)
Yeah, sounds like a lot of fun. The lights, the lights get me. That's a trick.
Robert Frankovich (23:18.408)
Yep. And to show that kind of thing, had this big warehouse space and painted the walls. And after you painted the walls, like I need to comment during class, look a little dimmer in here. We have to get more lighting. One of the back student in the one of the back rows, we need it. Need a mirror ball. It's like, yeah, right. Uh-huh. Sure. And I dismiss it.
That was Wednesday when he got there Saturday for the blackout class. There was a mirror ball hanging up with a motor and the whole day. And it's like, no, no. of my students, after someone hollered mirror ball, they go, I bet Todd has one. Yeah, he did. And he came in and he installed it and lights on it the whole bed.
Jeremy Lesniak (23:56.471)
Did you do it? Did you? No, OK. He. One of your students did it, OK?
Jeremy Lesniak (24:12.626)
that's funny.
Hey, you might get into a fight at a club.
Robert Frankovich (24:20.081)
Yeah, Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:21.315)
I would imagine that learning how that works, I don't know, I'm stretching, but.
Robert Frankovich (24:25.362)
But then with the light shining on it, there was one wall that had a perfect circle on the wall, the shadow. Came in a couple weeks later.
turn the lights off, turn the mirror ball on, and can see a glow in the dark line across the middle of the shadow and a little disc further up. Somehow we had the Death Star in there now. They never got far enough to put up a little X-wing model flying toward it.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:00.758)
You do have a nerdy group.
Robert Frankovich (25:02.822)
Yep. Yep. And it's awesome. You know, we're not all very, very good athletes per se, but we work our asses off and have a lot of fun doing it.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:05.036)
That's great.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:10.659)
Yeah, that's far more important as far as I'm concerned.
Robert Frankovich (25:15.091)
Yep. We even had a set of D and D dice. The D20 was 24 inches. Because I put a dice rolling app on my phone. It's like, we're going to do drills, this drill this many times. And then look again, it's like, I hope you guys trust me that I'm actually doing and not just picking numbers I want.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:31.137)
Mm-hmm.
Robert Frankovich (25:41.242)
It would be cool if you could roll the dice. And one of the students built the dice and brought them in.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:47.385)
that's cool. In my school, sometimes we'll use a deck of cards or dice for adding some randomness in. I even found on Amazon blank six-sided and set up a few things that we do so it can be completely random. And we'll do some random combinations and other things like that. And what I found most interesting was when it was random, students...
didn't complain as much. If I said, okay, we're going to do 20 push-ups. but if it was like, all right, we're doing 10 push-ups and now we're doing 10 push-ups, they wouldn't complain as much. Be like, all right, the card said.
Robert Frankovich (26:30.361)
Yep, I do that too. I make them draw a hand of five or eight cards and then put those into the stack, use the ones we're doing. So if you drew, yep.
I tired workout is good workout regularly too. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:49.795)
We've talked about the now, we've talked about the past, let's talk about the future. Do you see a point in time where you stop teaching?
Robert Frankovich (27:02.551)
No, I don't have a time that I can see that. Yeah.
I will eventually fall apart enough that they only be following from the sidelines. Be that that crotchy old teacher with a cane smacking everyone because they're not moving right. But it's not something I expect to stop.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:26.945)
And how about as you look into the future with your own training? Cause I imagine you are still working on things for yourself. You know, strike me as someone who isn't that person.
what keeps you motivated on your training and goals? I mean, it's an ambiguous question, but I think you know where I'm going.
Robert Frankovich (27:46.862)
It's really ambiguous because it's really hard to also answer. Although having younglings coming up behind me who will want that knowledge and will be able to get that knowledge before they're as broken as I am, I need to have it ready to be able to pass on to them. They're good now in the part where I can tell them a command from our words and our usage.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:50.467)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:01.027)
Mm.
Robert Frankovich (28:16.303)
And if I string them together, they'll do exactly what you were told. And in their basics, basics are the important part. Basics are your alphabet. If you don't have the alphabet, you can't make words. So I can give you a set of three techniques, and now it's a combination. You have a word. You'll find that word in bunch of the forms. If you already know it, I can put them even to you again in different orders.
and you'll always be able to get there. So they'll be able to follow the lecturing and the leading that way without being physically shown. Yeah, and that'll be the only benefit then that I can teach before, until I can't move anymore.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:01.823)
You strike me as someone who would write a book.
Robert Frankovich (29:06.68)
Can you
Jeremy Lesniak (29:08.725)
martial arts book just the way you're talking about these things preparing, leaving, you know, having this stuff set up
Have you not thought about writing a book?
Robert Frankovich (29:22.167)
I have taken our Ticlondo forms and put them into book form there. on Amazon.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:27.939)
Okay, have not only have you thought about it, you've you've you've made a book. Okay. All right. Well, I'm glad to know my instincts aren't that wrong.
Robert Frankovich (29:35.648)
And end, end.
And thinking about the sword one also, I did the Taekwondo one because our set of forms is unique to our lineage. We come from Songwukwan, Saundero, down to Grand Meshukhin. One of the assignments, way I learned it was Grand Meshukhin was told, make up some forms that illustrate your understanding of technique and application as a test. And that was one of his last tests.
Jeremy Lesniak (29:47.49)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (30:07.722)
He created seven forms and only the school, the handful of students that he taught them to continued on. So there's less than probably 50 schools that know these forms.
Jeremy Lesniak (30:23.799)
that's interesting. You don't see that too often.
Robert Frankovich (30:25.773)
And no, and to me they're half sport karate and half practical application. All mixed together because there's snap punches in there and sparring combinations in there. And then there's throws and take downs in there. And yeah.
That's the unfortunate part to me that people learn a form, but they learn to dance. They don't learn the inside, the depths of the form.
So I'm not big on learning forms just to learn forms. Yeah. Kind of plays on the, just thought of that one. Just kind of plays on the Bruce Lee thing. Not afraid of the person who knows 10,000 hits. Afraid of the one who learned one kick and then did it 10,000 times. Yeah. I only need a handful of real forms to learn and develop and study because I can study them forever. Doing.
dozens of forums doesn't help you do anything.
Jeremy Lesniak (31:34.652)
I love forms and I've learned, I can't even tell how many I've learned. I've forgotten more than I.
But as I've gotten older, I've come to realize, if I truly want to understand a form at a really deep level, and I want my students to understand that form at a really deep level, I can't give them more forms. Because spoiler alert instructors, they're not going to go home and practice all of their forms all of the time. They've got a finite amount of time they're going to train, and an even less time they're going to train at home. And if you really want them to get it, give them less stuff to do.
Robert Frankovich (32:09.909)
Yep, completely.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:19.073)
What else should we talk about?
We got a few minutes left. Is anything else we should, anything we've missed?
Robert Frankovich (32:23.307)
Yep.
Robert Frankovich (32:30.319)
ever developing stuff, you know, working on the Sangloklan side. Finally got a wiki set up on our Federation so that I can go out and recruit all the first generation pioneer students and get their histories and their stories and their photos and their that stuff and then their students. You know, end up opening it up to Porthon and higher that can prove that they're Sangloklan people and then ask them to help us find more.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:58.114)
Hmm.
Robert Frankovich (33:01.065)
And because Afunder Rowe passed away in 2015, he was the last of the original founders, Kwan founders, you know, but his was the least organized of them all because he didn't tell, he said, go teach. And he meant teach the principles and the concept. So in Sangguk Kwan, we have probably 30 different sets of forms because he never specified a curriculum. All forms will teach the same things.
teach the things, not the forms. Don't worry about that part of it. So he didn't send out and try to get organizations made and any of that kind of
The other part that's just recent here is setting up a new sort organization to try to get away from the memorizing forms and developing that where we're actually putting the bad guys in the fights and all that kind of thing and having fun that way.
So that one's only a month old now though, so yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (34:06.883)
As you work through some of this stuff, make sure you send it over so we can either update the show notes or put it out over social media, depending on what's appropriate.
Robert Frankovich (34:15.336)
Cool. Yeah.
Very good.
Jeremy Lesniak (34:21.035)
If people want to get a hold of you, what would they do? Websites, social, email, any of that stuff to share?
Robert Frankovich (34:28.314)
Yep. website real easy. W T a dash N dot com white tiger martial arts. So it's a short version and just find out there's a lot of white tiger martial arts. You can't just search that. That's why I added the N at the end. So you get the Minnesota one. we're on Facebook, Instagram, under white tiger or W T a, every very, very,
thin TikTok piece right now. There's only like maybe a half dozen videos on there. A little fun that we started playing with, but I gotta get used to that kind of stuff.
Jeremy Lesniak (35:08.215)
TikTok's fun. There's some good folks over there.
There's a lot of not good folks as well, but there's some good folks. it's pretty, the thing I love about TikTok is it's the easiest algorithm to train. Whatever you watch, it will show you more of. And if you don't want to watch something, just flip by it quickly and in a couple of days it'll stop showing it to you.
Robert Frankovich (35:12.324)
That's why keep hearing.
Jeremy Lesniak (35:33.443)
appreciate that.
Robert Frankovich (35:33.998)
I'll have to get my expert on to that, get her help getting it set up.
Jeremy Lesniak (35:39.831)
Yeah, and please make sure you send, you know, if we have your links, we'll put them in the show notes. If we don't make sure you send them over, we'll get those in the show notes. Reminder to everybody, full show notes are only at our website because YouTube, Spotify, et cetera, strip out some of the stuff that we put in. Just keep that in mind.
Robert Frankovich (35:55.8)
yeah, yep. That's why you gotta have a website.
Jeremy Lesniak (36:00.279)
Gotta have a website. whistlekickmarshortsradio.com is this one.
Robert Frankovich (36:03.928)
Yep. And your stuff will be added in my website, Skirtland.
Jeremy Lesniak (36:08.333)
What's that?
Robert Frankovich (36:09.614)
Your stuff will be added to my site soon.
Jeremy Lesniak (36:11.907)
fantastic. Thank you.
Robert Frankovich (36:13.796)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (36:15.159)
Well, Rob, I think this is our time. So how do you want to end? We've talked about you and your journey. So what do you want to leave the audience with today?
Robert Frankovich (36:27.3)
Two little parts then. Morieji Ueshiba, founder of Aikido, said training should be joyous. So if you're training and not having fun, you're doing it wrong. So my version that I give, play have fun. Anyone who wants to join and stop in, play and have some fun with us, stop in.