Episode 1081 - Traditional Martial Arts Forms: OK to Change?
In this episode Jeremy and Andrew sit down to discuss traditional forms and changing them to suit you or competition.
Traditional Martial Arts Forms: OK to Change? - Episode 1081
SUMMARY
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew discuss the nuances of traditional martial arts forms, exploring whether it's acceptable to modify these forms for competitions or personal expression. They delve into the variations of forms across different styles, the impact of competition on form adjustments, and the authority that dictates how forms should be performed. The conversation emphasizes the importance of celebrating differences in martial arts while recognizing commonalities across various styles. The hosts encourage listeners to reflect on their own experiences with forms and share their thoughts.
TAKEAWAYS
Changing traditional forms can be a topic of debate.
Forms can vary greatly between different martial arts styles.
Competition may necessitate adjustments to forms.
Authority in martial arts can influence how forms are taught and performed.
Personalizing forms can enhance individual performance.
Celebrating differences in martial arts fosters growth and learning.
Commonalities exist across various martial arts forms.
Feedback from listeners is valuable for future discussions.
Understanding the reasons behind form variations can lead to deeper insights.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
03:05 Exploring Traditional Martial Arts Forms
06:00 The Question of Changing Forms
09:08 Variations in Forms Across Styles
12:01 The Impact of Competition on Form Adjustments
15:09 Understanding the Authority in Martial Arts
18:00 Personalizing Forms for Individual Needs
21:00 Celebrating Differences in Martial Arts
23:57 Commonalities Across Martial Arts Styles
26:54 Conclusion and Call for Feedback
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy Lesniak (06:00.498)
What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick, martial arts radio. I'm Jeremy Lesniak joined by my great friend, friend, there's an R in that word, and off to co-host Andrew Adams. Andrew, how are you?
Andrew (06:15.243)
I great today and I could be offend. I don't know what that would mean, but I could be offend.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:20.668)
You offend everyone. It's actually not really true. You're you're. Yeah, you're you're like a golden retriever of people like. The only time people don't like you, like, OK, look, you're getting hair everywhere. Now, obviously, they don't say that about either of us. This is very true. Now, what are we here to talk about? Not dogs, not terrible enunciation of words that take us down rabbit holes, but martial arts forms.
Andrew (06:23.079)
That's i'm sure there's some people
Andrew (06:39.114)
That's true.
Jeremy Lesniak (06:49.435)
And specifically, Andrew and I are going to tackle the question, is it OK to take a traditional martial arts form and change it up for whatever reason you want to change it up? And we're going to talk about that. And you may have a strong opinion on it. If you do, we do want to hear from you. The best place to hear from you is replying to the. I can't call them weekly, the bi weekly emails we send out to emails every week because we do two episodes.
Andrew (06:58.583)
Mm-hmm.
I'm
Jeremy Lesniak (07:18.986)
every week. And those emails have the video and the audio and some behind the scenes stuff, all kinds of cool stuff with those emails. And if you get it and you listen to what we say and you're like, ah, Jeremy and Andrew are stupid and they don't have any hair, you can reply, you can tell us those things. Now, of course, there are other places you can reply, other things that you can do if you want to take the conversation public. Hopefully it's a little more constructive than that. But, you know, the Internet's a funny place.
Andrew (07:32.586)
That's .
Jeremy Lesniak (07:43.796)
But the key is we want to hear from you and we want to make sure that you don't miss these episodes. So sign up for the email list, go to whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com or check out the show notes in this episode, the very episode you're looking at. There will be a link to the place to subscribe to get those emails. And of course you can cancel anytime and we give you behind the scenes stuff and it's just, we put a lot of work into them and shout out to the rest of the Marshall arts radio team. D and B, I don't know if they want to be named. So we'll just use your first initial.
Andrew (08:11.364)
That's fair my gosh, I was not I was not prepared for that question
Jeremy Lesniak (08:14.834)
All right, Andrew. Here's a question for you. How many forms have you learned different versions of in different schools? Yeah. I know. But more than one, right?
Andrew (08:32.362)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Probably if I'm being honest, probably all five penons or Hey odds. So probably at least 10 at minimum.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:40.321)
huh. Yup.
Jeremy Lesniak (08:48.735)
Yeah. There were some forms that I learned in Taekwondo, ITF Taekwondo that were so close to what I had learned in other non-Japanese, non-Korean styles that it broke my brain. That I really had a hard time with both of them sitting in my head at the same time.
Jeremy Lesniak (09:08.074)
Somebody made those forms different. Somebody said, you know what? I'm going to make this. I'm going to do a different version. I'm going to take it. I'm going to change these three moves or these 10 moves or I'm going to change every move, but make sure you can see the difference.
Andrew (09:17.652)
Yep.
And, and no, no. And sometimes it's a, it's a, I'm going to put this in air quotes, simple change where in my Shotokan school, we did it with a vertical fist or rather we did it with a regular fist sideways, like just a standard punch. in, but in my Shorin Rue school, we did that exact same punch as a vertical fist. The form was the same, but
Jeremy Lesniak (09:24.158)
And I don't hear anybody complaining about that.
Jeremy Lesniak (09:43.592)
I'm looking something up, yeah.
Andrew (09:53.541)
In one school, we did it as a regular punch and another school we did it as a vertical fist punch, but the form was basically the same and there are other little stylistic things different. But if you look at the difference between. PNN or pinion sandan. So the third form in a lot of Okinawan schools and you look at Heyon sandan.
They are the same form, but they are absolutely different. You can clearly see both of them from each other, but it's still the same form.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:32.875)
My research was taking too long, so I'm going to stop.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:41.318)
At some point, if we go back far enough, and I don't care when and I don't care how many, the numbers don't matter to me, there were only a few forms.
If you go far enough back, had one or two or five, maybe 10. And now you look across styles and we got a bunch. And some martial arts systems have 30 or 40. Some have more when you add in the weapons forms and some have preset sequences of technique, like Kempo has, some styles of Kempo have 108 or 109 of these.
Andrew (11:02.223)
yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:21.746)
They call them techniques, but to me they look like very simple forms. They're short sequences, but they have to be done in a certain way. They're forms, as far as I'm concerned.
Andrew (11:32.345)
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:34.053)
and
I don't hear people arguing, know, whoever took, you know.
Coups on coup and turn it into a conchadet or whatever, you know, back and forth, you know, they're the worst. But I do hear people getting really bent out of shape when they see someone make an adjustment to a form at an open competition.
Andrew (12:00.936)
Yeah. And the thing that really gets me about this that I find ironic is that you can find footage or drawings, illustrations, and books of instructors teaching a form this way. And then 15 years later, another video of that same instructor in
teaching the exact same form and is choosing to teach it slightly differently.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:35.218)
Yeah, true story.
Andrew (12:36.999)
How is that really that much different from us choosing to make a minor modification or whatever to the form?
Jeremy Lesniak (12:45.909)
Well, I think the difference is obvious. It's the authority. Right. that's and you know.
Andrew (12:52.368)
Yeah, exactly. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:59.058)
I competed a lot as a teenager and my instructors knew I was making adjustments to forms. In fact, I remember when they changed things for me for competition and I remember saying, I can do that. They said, yeah. However, this is not the official way we do it in the school. And when it comes time for teaching someone or practicing alongside with everyone or testing for your next rank.
Andrew (13:10.695)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:25.81)
You better know it the correct way, our way, the school's way. And my tournament form for a very long time was Kuzon Koo, the Ishenmoo version of Kuzon Koo. Dramatic changes. You know, if you know Ishenmoo, tall stances and I was doing very deep stances, et cetera. And I remember on at least one occasion my instructor saying as we were getting ready to do it, hey, Jeremy, our way. Not the tournament way that you do our way. Yeah. And.
Andrew (13:49.132)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:54.632)
You know, one of the things that I find fascinating is that we tell people all the benefits of forms. And then we tell them. In a lot of schools, but it also has to look exactly like everyone else's. That's really hard to reconcile for me. How do you get as much out of this this set of techniques without being able to find how it applies to you?
Andrew (14:08.646)
Mm.
Andrew (14:20.093)
Yeah, yeah. And I'm not speaking for every instructor out there, but I've often been told that, you know, take what you're learning and, and, you know, make it your own. Everybody's shape and size is going to be different. so take what you're being given and you're going to be able to make it your own. Well, there's a perfect place to be able to do it.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:33.012)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:47.295)
When I think about competition, you know, I've seen people get really upset. You know, I've even had referees in the past when I was a kid. So, you know, that's not the correct way to do it. Well, one, how do you know? Two, you're going to penalize me because maybe I was taught differently than you were. That's unfair. This is an open competition. And I could just make up the forum. And that's just as OK.
Andrew (15:09.638)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:17.404)
If we're talking about, I don't know why my headphones keep moving. I apologize. If we're talking about a, you know, a certain organization or schools tournament where you are supposed to perform the forum in certain ways, you know, move seven is this and move nine is that and move 12 is that. I understand. But what sets those people apart anyway? Slight differences in how they do the form. Otherwise.
Andrew (15:34.202)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (15:44.454)
Sure. Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:46.78)
It's just about accuracy? Well then everybody should go really slow and get it super dialed. But of course that's not what's happening.
Andrew (15:53.039)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew (15:57.892)
Yeah, everybody is going to go. mean, the only way it would be the same is if you were as a group. Like if I'm in, if I'm teaching class and I have 10 people in class doing the same form, they're all going to be doing it at roughly the same speed. Cause they're all following the senior student doing it. They're all going to be roughly the same stance, depth and width and whatever. But if I asked each of them one at a time to get up and do it, they are going to be different.
For sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:28.713)
Yeah, yeah. In fact, doing a form just like somebody else is so difficult, it's a separate competition division. Team forms. And you do not have to be a super skilled referee or even know the form to watch them and see the differences. They may be slight, but if there are slight differences when they are working really, really hard to make it exactly the same.
Andrew (16:38.349)
Yeah, Team Forums, absolutely.
Andrew (16:47.629)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:56.826)
This comes back to one of the things you and I have talked about on the show a few times, this idea that instead of trying to force photocopies of others in doing, whatever they're doing, celebrating the differences, recognizing that martial arts is a living thing because it allows for progress.
Andrew (17:06.981)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (17:22.684)
When I do my forums, you know, whatever my whatever forum a couple of years ago, I opened a school. OK, we've got a small set of forums and.
when I teach them to my students, I am teaching them the same thing, but I am helping them find what works for them in the form. In fact, it's hard coded in that as they get better with the form, it should be more individualized.
Andrew (17:37.764)
Yeah.
Yeah. And I think it's also like, I'm not advocating for changing the form for the sake of changing the form. Right? I mean, I think you need to have some, a little bit of wherewithal as to understand what you're changing and why. and I will give an, I'll give a specific example. My tournament form was a Shotokan forum called Konkukyō. It's a slightly different version from Konkudai.
And the last few moves of Konkukyō without standing up and demonstrating them are basically doing a middle block to the left in a forward stance, stepping forward and punching, spinning 180 degrees around, doing a middle block on the other side and stepping forward and punching. So four moves, block, step, punch, block, step, punch.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:51.851)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (18:58.644)
I changed that form because it felt awkward to me to do the step. So instead of a stepping punch, I did a middle block and I just did a reverse punch. And then I switched my stance to face the other direction, did a middle block and a reverse punch. And for me, it looked and felt a lot more powerful because I'm just shifting my body weight into the punch.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:10.505)
Mmm.
Andrew (19:26.208)
As opposed to when I did it with a step, it felt stuttered. So I made a conscious choice to change those last two moves.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:30.794)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:37.054)
And in competition, if the objective is to showcase your own skill as well as you can, then yeah, making some changes completely appropriate.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:50.1)
So why do we think people get wrapped around the axle on this?
Andrew (19:55.683)
A lot of I think this is my opinion. I think for a lot of people it's ego. It's my way or the highway
Jeremy Lesniak (20:07.818)
I think we're saying the same thing. I'm going to say it in a different way, This is the right way. Everything else is not the right way.
Andrew (20:17.015)
Mm, yeah, yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:18.728)
This is the right way to do that form. You're doing it differently. There is not a right, know, no other way could be right. I see this a lot in internet comments when people will... I just saw somebody post a form, a taekwondo form, not long on TikTok. And the comments were full of people saying, that's not a taekwondo form. It's like, obviously you've never trained ITF taekwondo because I learned in that very form.
Andrew (20:48.244)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:48.427)
Yes, it looks a lot like this Shotokata form over here, but it's a different form with a different name. It's not wrong. It's two different interpretations.
Andrew (21:00.661)
Exactly. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:02.45)
I think the culture of some martial arts schools is about making photocopies. And when people see something that is not, you know, it looks the same, it has a different name or has the same name and looks a little different. The only place their mind can go is this is wrong. This is incorrect. And I think that's really unfortunate. Talk length about celebrating the differences with the martial arts and learning from each other.
Andrew (21:21.059)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:31.938)
One of the videos that I've seen, and actually I think you've done this before. I think I've seen you do this where you'll have two, three people do the same form from different styles and in real time. And I think that's so friggin cool.
Andrew (21:46.37)
Yeah. Yep. And, know, going back to the statement you just made of people saying, watching a forum saying, you're doing it wrong. Well, no, what you could say is you're doing it wrong from the way my school does it, but every school does things their own way. And they may be doing it perfectly for their school.
Jeremy Lesniak (22:12.01)
One of the biggest mind shifts that I had, and I don't remember where this happened along the way for me, because when I was young, was, you know, I was a nerd and I wanted to get things right. I wanted to do them correctly. know, academically, I did well in math. There's generally one right answer to math, at at the level of math I was doing. And
Andrew (22:27.714)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (22:33.073)
I, you know, growing up as a teenager, you know, unsure of my place in the world, I looked for things. This is right. This is wrong. Right. It became a, there's a comfort there. But as I got older, I realized, wait a second. There isn't just one way of doing this form. In fact, I've now I've learned the forum in three different ways. They're all correct. Depending on the context. That's actually kind of neat.
Andrew (23:01.605)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (23:02.226)
And so it shifted my mindset from. Is it right or wrong to it's different? What can I learn from this? Why is it different? How is it different? What's the what was the mindset that created this difference? Hey, I just saw you at the last tournament. You did this form differently. I don't remember exactly what you did differently, but you've changed something. Why did you change it? Help me learn because the question why. Creates the opportunity for learning and improvement. And.
Andrew (23:13.26)
Hmm.
Andrew (23:23.458)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (23:32.208)
If the attitude is not why, but rather cutting away everything that is different, you are ultimately left with a point where there is no progress.
Andrew (23:44.489)
Yeah, good point. Good point.
Jeremy Lesniak (23:47.23)
And that's sad.
Andrew (23:49.823)
Yep. And I don't think you will find a
Like, okay, I don't know how to fit what I was going to say into a statement. There are so many different styles and schools and types of martial art that have common commonalities that it's almost impossible not to see this form in this style done in this school. And maybe it's called something different. Like examples would be you already mentioned Kusanku or I've heard it called Kushanku.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:26.218)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew (24:27.275)
But when it got to Japan, Funakoshi changed the name to Konkudai, but it's the same form, but they do it differently. I've seen Pasi and Basadai for when it was brought to Shotokan. I mean, you look at Tekki Shodan from Shotokan, in Shoren-Ru, it's Naifanchi, or I've also seen it, Naihanchi, with an H and not an F. But you go to some Korean schools and it's Po, I think it's Po-en, is that right? Po-en.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:38.388)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:54.675)
OM.
Andrew (24:56.861)
It's still the same form. think the taiko no form goes to the left first.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:00.842)
I learned it going to the right to start.
Andrew (25:05.121)
which, well, normally in the Shotokan versions, they go to the right.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:10.896)
In the issued new version, we go to the left. And in the type one, over as we went to the right.
Andrew (25:13.654)
Yeah, but it's still the same form, right? And I don't know that you can find a martial arts style that doesn't have commonalities with the, at least some of their forms.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:19.389)
It's yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:28.058)
only if it made up all of their forms. And there are some schools out there that do that for that reason. That's OK. No, no, but you end up with, know, we're talking about specifically in terms of forms, but you if you look at techniques, you know, how many different ways are there to do a high block, rising block, upper block? Right. Like I can think of one, two. Three. your way, OK.
Andrew (25:30.304)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew (25:34.281)
Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.
Andrew (25:52.981)
I mean, there's only one way. It's my way. The right way.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:55.946)
All right, well, I hope we do it the same way. And for the audience, I'm thinking, know, upward angle, straight up, kind of a hook. I've seen some that hook and they bring it back a little bit more.
Andrew (26:08.457)
I've seen ones where your your fist has to punch up even though your arm is sideways. Yeah. Yep. Yep. My last my last show in Rue school did it that way.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:13.338)
you're they bet the bent wrist. fascinating. See, and. OK, see, that's a great example, because I think I look at that and I say there's a part of me that says that's dumb. Because I've never seen it that way before, but what the very quick second thought was, wait a second, it's not dumb because you don't understand it. Somebody with some manner of intelligence made that decision somewhere along.
Let's find out why and then we can decide if we think it's done.
Andrew (26:43.696)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:47.026)
And by dumb, means I'm just not going to do it that way. That's OK.
Andrew (26:51.029)
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:54.992)
I want to hear from people. want to know if you change your forms when you're doing your own training. Did you take your forms and have to create a subversion for competition or for demonstrations or for something else? And I want to know if your instructors or fellow students supported that or not. I want to hear these things from people.
Best way to let us know, you can reply to those bi-weekly emails, not semi. Semi-weekly would be every other week. And I'm saying this to remind myself. Bi-weekly is it cuts it in half, two per week, because we give you two per week, not one every two weeks. We give you eight a month.
Andrew (27:35.503)
Yeah.
Andrew (27:45.097)
Unless there's five weeks in a month.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:46.876)
And then we give you 10 or maybe nine, depending on how the days fall. Anyway, we do appreciate you spending some time with us here and we would love your feedback. And we'd really love to make sure that you sign up for those emails so you don't miss an episode because that helps us grow. It helps us make sure that you get the content you're looking for. And it helps us share some of the cool behind the scenes stuff that we can't really stuff into the back of a video and definitely can't stuff into the back of an audio.
So sign up in the shop.
Anything else we want to tell them, Andrew? You can email us, Jeremy at whistlekick.com, Andrew at whistlekick.com.
Andrew (28:21.255)
No, I think we're good.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:26.6)
If have a topic, let us know that too. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.
Andrew (28:31.177)
Train hard, smile, have a great day.