Episode 1085 - The Violence Crisis in Children’s Schools
In this episode Jeremy and Andrew sit down with past guest Ryan Hoover to discuss the “Zero Tolerance Policy” schools have towards violence and how it’s hurting our kids.
The Violence Crisis in Children’s Schools - Episode 1085
SUMMARY
In this conversation, the hosts discuss the troubling incident involving a student named “Maria”, who faced disciplinary action after defending herself against an aggressor at school. They explore the implications of zero tolerance policies in educational institutions, the importance of community awareness, and the need for a more nuanced approach to self-defense in schools. The discussion emphasizes the necessity of empowering students to protect themselves and the role of parents and communities in advocating for change.
In this conversation, the speakers discuss the implications of zero tolerance policies in schools, particularly regarding bullying and violence. They explore the complexities of defining violence, the consequences of these policies on victims, and the role of schools in addressing bullying. The discussion emphasizes the need for community engagement and transparency in school policies to ensure the safety and well-being of students.
TAKEAWAYS
“Maria” did everything right in trying to deescalate the situation.
Zero tolerance policies often fail to consider context.
Self-defense should not be punished in schools.
School administrators need to be held accountable.
Students should be empowered to defend themselves.
The presence of video evidence can change narratives.
Parents must advocate for their children's safety.
Indoctrination against self-defense can have dire consequences.
Open discussions about violence and safety are necessary.
Schools may inadvertently breed victimhood through their policies.
Community engagement is crucial in addressing school safety issues.
Parents should demand transparency regarding school policies.
The consequences of bullying are often not adequately addressed by schools.
Self-defense should not be punished in the context of zero tolerance policies.
Schools often prioritize their image over student safety.
Educating communities about school policies can lead to positive change.
Real consequences for bullying and violence are necessary to change school culture.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction and Context Setting
01:01 The Incident: Maria's Story
08:01 School Policies and Self-Defense
16:02 Community Response and Awareness
23:49 Broader Implications of Zero Tolerance Policies
28:13 Navigating Zero Tolerance Policies
31:50 The Complexity of Violence Definitions
34:35 Consequences of Zero Tolerance on Victims
38:37 The Role of Schools in Bullying
43:30 Proactive Community Engagement
48:35 Demanding Transparency in School Policies
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy Lesniak (08:10.379)
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome back to Whistlekick martial arts radio. And today we're going to talk about, I'm not even sure what we're going to put a title on, put on as a title for this episode, but joined by returning guest, Ryan Hoover, all the way back from 326 to talk about something that makes us angry. And of course also returning. I don't know if we can say you're returning Andrew, cause you're here all the time.
Andrew Adams (08:44.488)
you
Jeremy Lesniak (08:45.516)
My great friend, Andrew Adams. I'm Jeremy Lesniak and this is Whistlekick Commercial Arts Radio. Today we're going to talk about a subject that some of you may be aware of in a broad sense, but we're going to talk about some specifics with the way schools handle violence. And unfortunately, this is an episode where we'll probably get angry. I don't know how angry we're going to get, but there will likely be some anger in there.
And I want you to hang on through to the end because we have some thoughts on how we as an industry can fight back against this. before we go any further, Ryan, could you tell the audience a little bit, you know, probably have some folks who didn't catch your episode because it was seven years ago and we've had some new folks since then, who you are and what you do.
Ryan Hoover (09:39.801)
Sure. Ryan Hoover, I founded an organization called Fit the Fight in 2003. Had been doing martial arts for a little bit prior to that. We travel. I have two training centers here in the Charlotte, North Carolina area. And then we travel kind of around the world running coach development courses, giving seminars, things like that. Our primary focus is on self-protection, self-defense.
We do combat sport kind of things here, but my personal focus and the focus of the organization is self-defense.
Jeremy Lesniak (10:24.334)
And you're pretty vocal about some of your...
perhaps less traditional views on training, the arts, self-defense, self-protection. I noticed, I don't know if the audience did, you term those as two different things. I know some people do. And because of that, you're not used to catching some heat. You don't mind saying what you think. Is that a fair characterization?
Ryan Hoover (10:52.877)
Yeah, I would say so. We sell a t-shirt here that was born of a YouTube comment that says, Ryan Hoover is painfully unlikable.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:11.383)
I love that.
Ryan Hoover (11:11.725)
I shot a video, a YouTube video a couple years back with Seth Adams, Sensei Seth. He's got a pretty big YouTube following and yeah, he is. He's a good dude, very talented martial artist as well. And he came down and wanted us to put him through some stuff and we did and he posted a video and somebody's comment was that Ryan Hoover guy is painfully unlikable. And so I thought, all right, well.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:17.518)
Yeah, he's down your way, isn't he? Yeah, yeah, yeah he is.
Ryan Hoover (11:40.089)
Let's make a T-shirt. And so we've been selling that shirt for, I don't know, four or five years now.
Jeremy Lesniak (11:45.902)
Yeah, I know some folks online that will turn those sorts of events into discount codes, and it works really well.
Ryan Hoover (11:54.349)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I just, it is what it is, man. Like I don't, I try not to let stuff like that bother me. You know, I'm
I think if we are going to talk about teaching other people how to fight and having emotional toughness and whatnot, you can't be bothered by some random person that you've never met and you're never gonna meet, making some throwaway comment on some video, like who cares?
Jeremy Lesniak (12:27.155)
I think the best advice I ever received in that vein was if you wouldn't go to them for advice, don't worry about their criticism.
Ryan Hoover (12:33.901)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's good.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:39.128)
So just to catch the audience up, know, Ryan and I are Facebook friends. I see what he posts. It's generally very thoughtful, often thought provoking, generally carries a thread of emotion, the sort of stuff that I also like to post. you know, pay attention to what he posts. And I read through this post that he made and I said, you know what? We've got to have him back on the show.
I reached out to Andrew, or I think maybe I shared the shared it with Andrew. You know, I said, Ryan, you got to come on. Like, let's talk this through. And everybody said yes. And that's why we're here now. And I'm aware Andrew hasn't said much. And I'm sorry for that, Andrew. I'm not ignoring you. But we're setting this up and we kind of have to do it that way. So, Ryan, why don't you tell the audience what it was that you posted about that I read about that brought us all here today?
Andrew Adams (13:23.176)
That's all good.
Ryan Hoover (13:36.217)
Yeah, I, so we have a girl that trains here off and on. It's sporadic because of family, because of school, because of sports, whatever. So, but she's been involved in some form or fashion here for many years. And when she can, she comes in and she assists with the kids' classes and whatever. She's 14, 15 years old. And
She was actually in one of the periods where we weren't seeing her a whole lot. And Amber, my wife who runs the center that I'm in now, sent me a text saying that she had been suspended for a day, I think, and then followed that up by sending me a video. And it was a video of...
Ryan Hoover (14:37.465)
let's call her Maria. It was a video of Maria being kind of cornered in a restroom. And at first it seems kind of playful. And I think for her part, she went through this phase where she wasn't sure if it was real. This was a girl that's known to her. You know, they play on the same volleyball and basketball team, you know. And at first I think
she didn't realize that it was actually a fight. Maria is kind of making space and she's smiling and laughing and she's verbally kind of trying to deescalate a little bit. the girl, the other girl keeps kind of... It's literally like...
Jeremy Lesniak (15:26.114)
doing all the things we would want someone to do.
Ryan Hoover (15:33.261)
From my standpoint as martial arts instructor, coach, whatever, and if I were a school administrator, I'd look at this like, okay, well, she's doing everything that you would ask someone else to do, adult, child, whatever. And the other girl continues to press and continues to press. And at one point pretty early on, she puts her hand on her throat.
and kind of pins her against the wall. And even at that point, like Maria, she kind of makes space, kind of gets her off of her, a girl starts grabbing her clothing and you even hear her say at one time, at one point, Maria say one point, stop, let go, this is the only shirt I have. You know, so I mean, it's like, I'm still trying to just move on from this. And so issue continues to give.
be pressed and pushing the girls grabbing her and kind of hitting at her and whatnot. And this is after already pending her against the wall by her throat. And Maria kind of slaps her on the side of the face, not hard, but it was, mean, it was, it was a slap. mean, she hit her, didn't really do anything, you know, it continues on the other girl.
kind of stumbles and falls down and Maria is still trying to make space, still trying to get away from him. The girl's grabbing at her leg and whatnot. And there's other girls in the room. You can't really tell how many are in there, but you can hear them. You can see a little bit kind of in the corner and whatever. And then the video ends. so the girl that started the fight.
lack of a better term, guess. She ended up supposedly being expelled, which, you know, I think is probably the right call. But then, you know, Maria ends up with a one day suspension, which, you know, a lot of people were like, well, it was just one day. And I'm like, yeah, but on what planet anywhere else are you going to be OK with somebody putting their hands around your throat and pinning you against the wall?
Jeremy Lesniak (17:27.918)
Yeah.
Ryan Hoover (17:49.203)
and you getting in trouble for defending yourself. I'm like, how have we gotten to a point where this is just the default setting is, well, it's just one day. You know, like, no, that's not okay. I'm not good with that. And, you know, my thing is like, if this principal, headmaster, whatever they call him, I don't know, it's a private school.
Andrew Adams (17:52.551)
Mm.
Ryan Hoover (18:18.681)
If he were put in that situation where he's being pinned against the wall by his throat, by a student or another faculty member, is he not gonna fight back? Is he not gonna defend himself? I'm willing to bet he's probably not going to just curl up in a ball in the corner of the bathroom and hope somebody comes to help him.
Andrew Adams (18:44.87)
Yeah.
Ryan Hoover (18:46.937)
The whole thing was just incredibly frustrating to me. And I've known the family for a while and I didn't, we kind of led into this with, I'm pretty outspoken when I see things that I think are handled poorly or wrong or something that is a teachable learning kind of moment. And so I did want to reach out and I didn't ask
before I did it, because I didn't want to make it worse for my student. And I sent the administrator a pretty decent size letter, very professional, but also very matter of fact. And I got no reply. And I sat on it for a few days. It was basically, look, and I didn't use any names. I said, this video has been shared with me.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:18.221)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:34.945)
What was the gist of that email?
Ryan Hoover (19:46.029)
of two girls, I kind of broke down the, what I saw. I mentioned that in the state of North Carolina, you know, this is deadly force as is in most states, which means that you could respond with deadly force to defend yourself legally. And I mentioned that the girl that was being attacked, you know, showed restraint and
Did everything she could to kind of try to deescalate, to try to leave without having a great means of egress. Because there were other girls in the room and it wasn't super clear whether these other girls had a side or not. So whether she could have just run through them, I don't really know. But anyway, I just said I would encourage you to revisit this issue because it doesn't seem.
okay to be punishing somebody for expressing agency and defending themselves, you know, from what is a lethal, potentially lethal attack. And so I got no response, sat around a couple of days, I said it again. And then the mom shows up here and says that he called her. This gets better, man.
He called her and said that he didn't appreciate me emailing him and that, yeah, I'm sure he didn't either. And that he had spoken to his attorneys and that I should stay in my lane. And she said, well, no, he, said, and you should tell him he should stay in his lane.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:21.068)
sure he didn't.
Ryan Hoover (21:43.105)
And she said, well, why don't you tell them? And he said, well, I'll have my attorneys do it. And I'm like, bro, what, what, what, what world is this? Like what is happening right now? You know? And so that's kind of where it got left. Mostly because at this point I, I'm still doing some things on the backside. But, you know, I, again, I don't want to make it worse for my student because clearly I'm not dealing with a rational actor on the administrator side of things.
So I don't I don't want to do something that's going to cause more grief or strife for her. But I also I want people to know that, you know, this is a thing. And this happened to be at a private school. I've run across this three or four times in 20 years that immediately come to mind. And two were private schools and two were public schools. So it's not, you know, this isn't a
Jeremy Lesniak (22:38.242)
Right.
Ryan Hoover (22:41.579)
indictment of private or public schools, they're pretty much all the same when it comes to this kind of thing.
Jeremy Lesniak (22:49.03)
this zero tolerance policy. And Andrew, you're, I'm gonna guess you must've gone there as soon as Ryan named how old Maria is. How old is your stepdaughter? And so you must've thought at some point, what would I do? How would I feel if that was happening?
Andrew Adams (23:00.04)
14.
Andrew Adams (23:06.694)
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so my takeaway from this is, is two, two things. Maybe they're not takeaways, but the things that I'm gleaning from this is, the video that you saw had audio, right? That's huge, right? That it's playing devil's advocate. It's easy. If there's no audio for people to make the assumption that, we're calling her Maria, that she was, you could maybe see her lips moving, but she could have still been escalating the situation. The fact that there's.
audio is huge. And the second question for me is if Maria was essentially punished for what we in our society would consider doing the right thing. The question that I would have for the administration is what could Maria have done to not get any punitive damage, punitive repercussions to her.
Was she just supposed to stand there and let herself get choked out and potentially, I mean, worst case scenario, killed, right? Is that what the administration would have wanted Maria to do? And obviously, asking any sane person that question, they're going to say no. So then the question is, what should she have done?
Ryan Hoover (24:06.797)
Yes.
Ryan Hoover (24:30.713)
Well, and that's why he's not going to reply to me. And that's why he immediately went to his attorneys, you know, because he knows that the logical extension of this conversation is exactly what you just said. Because if you're going to say zero tolerance, well, zero tolerance for what exactly? know, zero tolerance for self-defense, zero tolerance. If she had covered her head,
body locked her, placed her on the floor and walked away. Would that have made a difference? Was it the strike that did it? know, like, would her just crawling or falling down into a fetal position in the corner have gotten her a suspension? You know, like, this is why he didn't respond to me. And this is why he didn't reach out to me. And this is why he went to his attorneys because there is no logic to it. You know, it's
Zero tolerance policy is just a way to abdicate any sort of decision making process whatsoever. Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:36.303)
It is absolutely lazy. It is a lazy policy.
Andrew Adams (25:38.621)
Yep. Yep. And, and I would say, again, I'm playing devil's advocate. and I do work with a lot of schools. am in a lot of schools. I think the only reason, the only way a quote zero tolerance policy holds any sort of weight is when there you can't, when it's always one person's word against another's right. And you don't have.
video or in this case, audio, when you can't, when one person saying she hit me, no, I didn't. Right. It's hard there in that case to be able to figure out what really happened. so I can kind of understand in that scenario, you've got to figure something out. This is not that.
Ryan Hoover (26:28.151)
Yeah, no, it's it's and like the video and the audio both very clear. I mean, you can hear Maria several several times saying stop, you know, like it's it's it's.
Again, it's textbook. I mean, to me, it's textbook what you would want somebody to do leading up to having to physically defend themselves. You know, she did everything she could to try not to fight. I mean, she it is very clear that she does not want to engage, you know, and so I don't I don't know what she's supposed to do, you know.
And that's the problem. my bigger concern when it comes to stuff like this, I've traveled a lot doing like active killer defense kind of things. And I've worked in schools with staff, with students. We've done a lot of those kinds of things. And I...
This may be a stretch to some people, but to me, it's the natural kind of manifestation of these kinds of policies when you indoctrinate kids to think they can't fight back, that they shouldn't fight back, that someone else is going to be responsible for their safety. Then you end up with things like Pulse Nightclub, where you've got a bunch of 20 something year olds that grew up in a post Columbine society.
and they just hide in a corner and turn off the lights and hope somebody comes to save them. And because that's what they've been told their whole lives that they should do and that they have.
Ryan Hoover (28:20.365)
followed the protocols and the principles and the rules of academia and, you know, they've not been given the agency to make decisions for themselves, even when it comes to their own personal safety.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:37.418)
There's an aspect to this that I'm surprised you didn't point out Ryan and that is that everything suggests that this was a premeditated attack the presence of the other girls and the the existence of video at the early stage and the fact that Maria was unaware of what was happening suggests something had been going on
She may not have been aware of it, but the other girl, the girl I think we can reasonably deem the attacker, said, I'm gonna go beat up Maria, know, whatever the language was, brought friends, one of them pulled out a phone, at least one of them pulled out a phone to capture this event.
When we take a look at that, and I'm not an attorney, but that's a very different legal situation than they bump into each other at the sink and it escalates and turns into a thing, right? The fact that this was something that was sought out tells me that there was something happening ahead of time. And this seems to be a common thread within schools is that
they draw this zero tolerance line for violence, not for aggression, but for violence, which self-defense, if done right, is violent, let's face it. And everything up to that is irrelevant.
There was a, we did an episode years ago, might've been around the time that you were on Ryan, where if I'm gonna get, I'm hoping I'm gonna get the details right. There were three boys in a classroom. One of them was known to be a bully. One was known, was a martial artist. And the third was the third. Bully has been picking on victim and martial artist.
Ryan Hoover (30:40.803)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (30:42.662)
is nearby and aware. Martial artist hears what he believes to be the opening of a knife, witnesses the opening of a knife as bully attempts to stab victim.
martial artist successfully intervenes, no one gets stabbed and martial artist gets expelled.
Ryan Hoover (31:09.153)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (31:09.646)
I don't know what episode that is. We should find it, we should link it. Because it's probably the angriest I've ever been on a recording. And that was days after I read about
Ryan Hoover (31:19.833)
Right. Yeah, no, that's, that's ridiculous. And, and, know, in that case, um, I would have been on every news channel that I could find in that area, you know, um, that those administrators would have been famous. You know, I would have made sure of it. Um, because again, like what we, number of times that I've seen videos of people, um,
being attacked on mass transit or whatever. And the comments are always, well, why didn't somebody intervene? Why didn't somebody step in? Well, this is why. This is why people don't intervene. This is why people don't step in because they've been told not to. They've been told that somebody else's job, whatever. And I think as long as we continue to look at these things as singular, isolated incidences that
don't go beyond the scope of, well, this is just one case of bullying, then we're gonna keep creating these manifestations in society that lead to, I mean, here in Charlotte, we've had several, one that kind of became.
famous for lack of a better term, but we had several knife attacks on mass transit here in the past couple of months. And, you know, it's the comments are predictably, well, why didn't somebody step in? Why are somebody videoing and not stepping in? Well, you know, this is just one more reason why they don't. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (33:03.054)
because we've trained them not to. We've trained them that getting involved is the wrong choice.
Andrew Adams (33:04.776)
Thank
Ryan Hoover (33:09.165)
Yeah. It gets you in trouble.
Jeremy Lesniak (33:10.88)
Yes. And that conditioning occurs from a really young age. Andrew, have you spoken with, you and your wife spoken with your child about this sort of thing? is this a subject that comes up in your house?
Andrew Adams (33:28.584)
It hasn't come up a lot. did it earlier in the year. We actually here in town had, I mean, first off, let's face it, kids can be incredibly mean, right? Especially the other kids. They're trying to find their place in the world and they have not learned yet that putting others down doesn't really help to make you feel better, but they think it does. And there was an issue at the beginning of this school year where
There was a young girl, 14, she rode my daughter's bus and was being bullied so much that she ended up taking her own life. And it caused a lot of community outrage on how the administration handled it. so, and I want to talk about that more in a second, but in answer to your question, Jeremy, we did talk with her about how to
talk about deescalating things, being able to just extricate yourself whenever needed and those sorts of things and being able to defend herself if she needs to. If I was Maria's parents and if this had happened to my daughter, there would be like I would and I want to make it clear. I'm not saying Maria's parents have or have not done this. I don't know. We haven't talked about it, but there would be no end to the
outrage that I would be that the administration would be suffering from my wife and I because given the scenario that I've been told, Maria did everything right. And if my daughter was in that situation, would the administration would continue to hear from me. Now, my question is,
This altercation happened. Has there been community outrage? Does the community even know? Obviously, Ryan, you know, the parents know, maybe a few other parents of the kids that were there might know. The school as a whole knows. Has it gotten out into the community and what has their reaction been?
Ryan Hoover (35:43.341)
Yeah. I would say generally the answer to that is no. This is a relatively small private Christian school and they've done a pretty good job of insulating the incident. Anybody that would have found out outside of it would have been because they read one of my posts about it probably. know, I, know, internally here,
I've had a number of people come up to me and ask about it and want to send her something, you know, those kinds of things. The school is literally a mile from where I'm sitting right now. It's really close and it's relatively new. And so I would, to answer Andrew, not really. And I've...
I've kind of been walking this strange line between wanting to say and do more again, but also not make her life harder by making too much noise. Because I don't, in just a little bit that I've seen and heard, I don't particularly think that this administrator is.
a professional that thinks logically. So I, you know, I would be, I'm kind of resident, reticent to do too much out of fear of retribution to her. So I'm, I'm, doing some things, but they're kind of quiet right now.
Jeremy Lesniak (37:23.566)
And let's face it, the zero tolerance policies, they're not brand new. They've been around for a little bit. this administrator has been brought up in the same way we're bringing up kids. Like this is the way that you do this.
Ryan Hoover (37:28.941)
No.
Ryan Hoover (37:37.977)
Yep, no, absolutely. And he's he's a from from the photo I've seen. He's a relatively young guy. And so he I mean, listen, I think probably every school in this district that I'm in has the same policy, you know, whether it's private or public. So.
Jeremy Lesniak (37:55.66)
I'm unaware of a school that doesn't have a zero tolerance policy.
Ryan Hoover (37:59.543)
Yeah. And the problem is, think everybody has, not everybody, but most people, 99 % of the population has just decided that's just how it is. Take her to get ice cream. Okay. But that's beside the point, bro. we should not be accepting this as the norm. We should not be okay with
You know, kids being punished for doing the bare minimum to just survive. You know, I mean, think about that. That's crazy talk. mean...
Andrew Adams (38:36.604)
Hmm.
Andrew Adams (38:40.882)
Yeah. And, and I would say, I want to be really clear too. I actually have no problem with the verbiage zero tolerance policy. If a school has a zero tolerance policy on violence, if you commit violence, there's zero tolerance. Like I get that. The problem is putting that on the aggressor and the victim.
That's the problem. I have no problem with my local middle school saying we have a zero tolerance policy on bullying. And if you bully someone, you will be reprimanded. There shouldn't be, there should be a zero tolerance policy for that. The problem is they have gone to the extreme of if you are involved in an altercation, we have zero tolerance. Maria was involved, but did not instigate or
act out in a way other than defending herself. That's the problem. The fact that it has zero tolerance for X thing. I think that can be okay. It's all a matter of how is it, how it is administered, if that makes sense.
Ryan Hoover (39:50.125)
Well, I think that the issue becomes when we say, when we use the blanket term violence, you know, okay, well, I mean, that runs the gamut of everything from, you know, somebody pushing somebody to somebody showing up with a firearm to somebody simply defending themselves, you know, and, and I just, that's where, yeah, they're not the same. And that's where my issue.
Andrew Adams (39:56.808)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (40:11.652)
Exactly.
Jeremy Lesniak (40:15.052)
Those aren't the same.
Ryan Hoover (40:19.025)
with all of this comes in. If we're going to say zero tolerance for bullying, fine, I'm awesome. I'm great with that. But when you say zero tolerance for violence and you treat all violence as if it's the same thing, that's where my issue is.
Andrew Adams (40:35.72)
Correct.
Jeremy Lesniak (40:37.067)
It is, to me, it is not.
Jeremy Lesniak (40:45.174)
not accident, it is not a random connection between the implementation of zero tolerance policies and the rise of bullying. Because how was bullying, we're all roughly the same age, how was bullying handled when we were kids? The one, I'm not even gonna call it a fight, scrap I got in, in elementary school, two kids grabbed me, one grabbed each arm. I defended myself using what I had learned in karate. They ran to the,
recess attendance, and she said, I saw what happened. You got what you deserved. It was over, right? Now, I'm sure if I had been harmed, the situation would have been different, but they opened the door. I closed the door. And if we go back a generation before, what happened, know, Andrew, what would have happened with the girl on your daughter's bus?
that was doing the bullying. The rest of the girls would have gotten together and beaten her. Or if it had been, you know, or the boys would have gone and beaten their brothers, right? Like there would have been familial level consequences. We didn't accept this in society, but now that it is hidden and now that it is so, we've applied shame and so many other things to standing up for yourself.
And that to me is a very short step from that to unfortunately the sexual violence issues that we have in our society. I can't prove that with data, but logic would suggest when you breed victims, which is what schools are doing, they're breeding victims, that victimhood will continue as they age.
Ryan Hoover (42:35.907)
Well, I, you know, I mean, on that, we had this discussion here internally, like, what if this had been a boy in the girl's bathroom assaulting her and she fought back? Is she still getting suspended? You know, like, where's the line? You know, because when you say zero tolerance for violence, there is no line. It's just...
Andrew Adams (42:49.064)
Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (42:49.07)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (43:06.122)
It's wherever they want to draw it. Well, we have a zero tolerance. I'm going to guess this is what happened. We have a zero tolerance policy, and we've expelled her because clearly she was in the wrong. But because of this policy, we have to punish you in some way. So we're going to give you the smallest possible punishment, which is one day.
Ryan Hoover (43:07.769)
Right.
Ryan Hoover (43:28.227)
Yep, that's exactly it.
Jeremy Lesniak (43:28.458)
And I hope to God that if that girl is presented with a similar situation in the future, that she does not change her behavior. That would be my biggest fear out of this.
Ryan Hoover (43:40.461)
Yeah. mean, my, for me, she should be lauded for her restraint. She was literally in here the next day, double legging boys. You know, like if she had double legged this girl on that tile floor, it would have been really bad. So, I mean, to me, she should have been praised for her restraint as opposed to punished for it. You know, I just...
Jeremy Lesniak (43:47.276)
Yes, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak (44:02.178)
Yep.
Andrew Adams (44:08.23)
Hmm. Good point.
Ryan Hoover (44:10.125)
What is the message? We're asking and I mean, prefrontal lobe is not fully developed until mid 20s. So we're asking.
kids to make decisions that a lot of adults struggle to make, you know? And then when they do the right thing and they make the right decision, they're still punished for it. The message there, you know, is just one that I think we can't be okay with.
Jeremy Lesniak (44:44.374)
And that punishment being for taking action that is legally protected. The notion that schools get to play with a different set of laws, essentially, because that's how they operate, is something I've never fully understood.
Ryan Hoover (45:01.635)
Well, I mean, that was my big thing. Like literally anywhere else in this state, that girl would have been arrested and, you know, charged with something. She should have been, she could have been charged with attempted murder. Do I think she would have been? No, but it's a possibility. I mean, she's on video pinning somebody by their throat to the wall. You know, like, it doesn't take a whole lot to crush a windpipe, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak (45:12.332)
And she should be.
Ryan Hoover (45:31.449)
That thing crushes, swells up, she can't
Jeremy Lesniak (45:31.662)
Right. How many situations like that where the aggressor is arrested and put through the system, how many of those situations would need to occur before the temperature of the school and bullying changes? This is where I wish states attorneys would get more involved because they actually... You guys remember the scared straight stuff?
Ryan Hoover (45:48.343)
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean.
Andrew Adams (46:00.521)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Hoover (46:00.749)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (46:01.004)
When we were kids, right? Like nobody wanted to get involved there. But when we create this second sort of protected class of violent offenders, which is what's happening, the consequences aren't there. The consequences are meant to correct the action. We're not correcting the action because obviously it's escalate. And simply having some some states attorneys get involved and pressing charges that they could drop them later.
but exposing these children to what that situation is like, it's not gonna make the problem worse.
Andrew Adams (46:37.768)
Hmm.
Ryan Hoover (46:37.945)
Yeah, children and parents, know, parents need to understand that there real consequences or there should be real consequences to these kinds of actions and behaviors. And when there aren't, you know, and I mean, look, I'm not even sure because I don't know what's going on in this other girl's life. You know, I'm not even sure that expelling her is the right call.
She definitely should have been punished and it should have been more than what Maria got. But now what's her recourse? She sits at home for, you know, like I think there's probably more to whatever is going on. People don't bully and act out in this way when they are emotionally and mentally healthy. And so when you take somebody that's already emotionally, mentally, whatever,
struggling and then you just send them home to be isolated from peers and from learning and Now they're gonna be a year behind and all this, you know, I'm not exactly sure that that's the right call either I'm not I really haven't I honestly I haven't really thought about it until just now, but I'm not sure that That's the best course of action is either, you know
Jeremy Lesniak (48:00.738)
Right. I don't go ahead, Andrew.
Andrew Adams (48:00.967)
Yeah. And Jeremy, I was going to say that the problem, the problem putting in air quotes with getting, you know, state's attorneys involved in charging this, this young woman, the schools don't want that because then it's way too difficult to sweep it under the rug. let's face it. Schools don't want this stuff, public knowledge. They don't want any heat on them for anything. That's one of the reasons why the
I suspect the school in question here hasn't put out a blanket statement to the community. mean, the one thing I'll say for my local school here is when this situation came out at the beginning of the year, they were very proactive about putting out statements and letters to the community about what they were doing to handle the situation and what they were doing to help students in the school. But part of that, I suspect, is because
There was public outrage about what had happened and they couldn't sweep it under the rug. But I think schools want to.
Ryan Hoover (49:08.375)
Yeah. you even see it at the university level, you know, they do everything they can to hide crime stats and hide reports and whatnot, because you don't want to be seen as an unsafe college campus, you know, because that's going to hurt admissions. And it should hurt admissions. you're not doing the things that you, if you're going to say, all right, we have a zero tolerance policy on violence.
then you better be doing everything remotely possible to make sure that my kid is safe. You know, if my kid is going to be punished for doing the bare minimum to defend herself, then where were you? You know, what were you doing? Where were the teachers? What was happening? Why are these girls able to gather in a bathroom and film and nobody intervenes? Nobody knows what's going on.
Jeremy Lesniak (49:45.229)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Hoover (50:07.897)
You can't have it both ways. You can't say, well, go to the administrator, go to your teacher, blah, blah, blah, whatever. We'll handle it. And then also say, don't defend yourself, but then also not be there when I need somebody to defend me.
Jeremy Lesniak (50:25.55)
Thank
Ryan Hoover (50:26.637)
So it's like, and I don't want to get into a debate about law enforcement, but it's like, all right, well, Supreme Court's already said, the law and police have no duty to protect me, but they're the first ones to stand up and say, well, wait until we get there. And so it's like, just as a society, as a system, we've kind of accepted this as
Our safety is somebody else's responsibility.
Jeremy Lesniak (51:00.134)
I want to move into what the three of us kind of agreed before we started recording is what we're recommending as an action step. I don't want to call it a solution. That's a little bold, but a step in the right direction. Because if we take you brought up the statistics, right? If we took a look at actual statistics, if we apply the same standard for what is considered crime in school, as we did the rest of the world, schools would be
Top three, maybe the number one, crime loop. What's that?
Ryan Hoover (51:32.535)
Yeah. Yeah. You wouldn't tolerate in schools in workplace. You wouldn't tolerate what happens in schools in your workplace.
Jeremy Lesniak (51:42.518)
You wouldn't tolerate what happens in schools, in prisons. Right? Like there's nowhere on earth that I'm aware of that is, I shouldn't say on earth, we should restrict it to where we know in the US. If we appropriately applied the legal definitions of these crimes and we looked at crime rate per capita, I don't think there'd be anywhere else that would be higher as a physical entity.
You're not going to see that at anybody's job. You're not going to see that at homes in general, right? You're not going to see that at the gym.
Andrew Adams (52:12.488)
Mm.
Jeremy Lesniak (52:23.7)
It's something that's pretty unique. And so let's talk about what we can do. mean, we've spent some time today talking about how none of us are comfortable with this notion of zero tolerance policies.
Ryan Hoover (52:41.219)
Well, I think the first thing is to educate your communities and let them know that these policies are what they are. While a lot of people probably understand that zero tolerance policies exist, I'm not sure they understand exactly what that means. We've kind of had this conversation slash debate here in that when you...
Jeremy Lesniak (52:41.528)
So let's start there.
Ryan Hoover (53:09.173)
use a blanket term like violence and treat it all the same. I'm not sure that that's what people think of when they hear zero tolerance. I'm not sure they think, well, if my kid is getting beat on, they don't mean she can't defend herself. But guess what? That is what they mean. That's exactly what they mean. When they say zero tolerance and when they say violence, it's all the same. And so I think we should start by
making sure that people understand what these policies actually are. Let's educate everybody on what that actually means and what it looks like when it's put into practice. Because this is what it looks like when it's put into practice. You can spend 30 seconds dancing around a restroom being chased and slapped and grabbed and choked and try to say all the right things and
send one strike back and you end up in trouble as well. That's what these policies are. And then beyond that, I think every time you hear something about this, you have to make noise. I mean, I would much rather be proactive. I would much rather ask just, let's find out what the policies are. Ask your administrators what their policies are at your kid's
I'll tell you, I won't be surprised if you get some pushback on even getting that. When I first started going into schools and systems and districts for active shooter stuff, the amount of pushback I got on just finding out what their policy was, was astounding. And I mean, I'm talking about, I had two kids in their system, and I'm like, what do you mean you can't tell me what your policy is? And I ended up having a teacher friend
Jeremy Lesniak (54:39.906)
Mm-hmm.
Ryan Hoover (55:06.041)
Send it to me kind of on the on the down low, you know, that's how I ended up getting it
Jeremy Lesniak (55:10.07)
Hmm. Did they give you a reason why they didn't want to give it to you?
Ryan Hoover (55:16.137)
it's against their policy that they want that they want to share with you.
Jeremy Lesniak (55:19.476)
it's.
The policy that your children are expected to comply with is not a policy that is permitted to be shared with their parents.
Ryan Hoover (55:31.949)
Yes. Yes.
Andrew Adams (55:32.594)
That's insane.
Jeremy Lesniak (55:33.984)
I'm pretty sure that's also illegal because miners can't.
Ryan Hoover (55:38.167)
Yeah, well, so what, well, what, when it comes to like the actor shooter stuff, what they'll say is, cause once you press, you start pressing what they'll say as well. We don't want this information out there because we don't know what we don't want a potential shooter to know what our policies are. Well, my, my, my 12 year old knows what your policy is. Like, what are we talking about? You know? So.
Andrew Adams (55:59.208)
Mmm.
Ryan Hoover (56:07.833)
Anyway, I would highly recommend that you ask and you ask again and again and again and you have other parents ask and you really push and find out what the policies are. And then, you know, mean, on the local level, mean, honestly, in most school districts on the public side, no one school, one principal is going to have any sort of
agency to make any changes whatsoever. And so it's going to have to be a big push from a lot of people up to like a school board kind of level, superintendent kind of level. Because I mean, I have teachers that train here and when it comes to like actor shooter stuff, most of them are like, no, it's ridiculous. The policies that they have are ridiculous and they'll tell me what they think they're going to do.
and it has nothing to do with what the policies are. So it's going to have to be, I think, a bottom-up kind of approach, but you have to go all the way up.
Jeremy Lesniak (57:15.956)
My and you know, I feel really strongly about this. I don't have children. So my I feel like my opportunity to get involved is a little compromised, right? Because that's going to be the first question people will ask. Who are you? Why? Right. But my strategy would be I want the policy and then I want to I want a tangible example of the policy, hopefully one that occurred in in that district.
and I want to see how it was applied. And if I can't get that, I'm going to find a video and I'm going to say, OK, let's say this hypothetical happens. What is the outcome, right? And I'm going to push that as far as I can, and I'm probably not going to get any satisfaction at the school level, so I'm going to bring it to the school board and I'm going to get all my parent friends to come with me and we're going to get on the agenda and we're going to force the issue because what's going to happen? We know they're going to say
Andrew Adams (57:54.834)
How do you handle that? Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (58:14.662)
something in the application of policy that is BS. And once we get them to say that, then there's an opening to go after it and say, okay, you have disclosed this, which is a violation of state law. And that's our opportunity to get it changed. That would be my approach.
Ryan Hoover (58:34.465)
And I think that's the real reason, for the same reason that this principal didn't contact me, I think that's the real reason they don't want to give out policies. That's the real reason they don't want to have conversations, because they know it's indefensible. They know it is.
Andrew Adams (58:48.176)
And they don't, and they also don't want anything in writing out there publicly. That's why.
Ryan Hoover (58:53.561)
That's why he didn't actually reply to my email.
Andrew Adams (58:55.314)
Correct, and that's why he didn't email Maria's mom. It was a phone call.
Ryan Hoover (58:59.065)
Yeah, right. Exactly.
I understand that we live in a pretty litigious society. And so on some level I get it, you know, I understand it. However, when you are talking about kids and you are talking about parents, you have a duty. When I'm going to send my kids to you for six, eight hours a day, you you owe me more than, and obviously this is not my kid in this situation, but
I mean, I've had two kids in this local school district here. You owe me more than, you know, well, I talked to my attorneys or, you know, whatever. no, that's not, that's not okay. And it's like anything else, like one voice is not going to get it done. It's going to take a lot of voices and making a lot of noise. Cause unfortunately that's, that's, that's what it's.
you know, it's the squeaky wheel kind of thing. I mean, it just is what it is. And if they know that this is going to blow over in, you know, a few days or a few weeks or whatever, they'll hold the line and they'll ignore the phone calls and the emails. And because they know that attention spans are short and we'll all go back to other things that we have to do in our lives. And, you know, the policies will remain. I it just is what it is.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:00:31.852)
let up. Kids don't deserve this. They can't do it on their own. We have to help them and we have an opportunity to help them.
Ryan Hoover (01:00:33.069)
No.
Ryan Hoover (01:00:37.079)
No.
Ryan Hoover (01:00:43.533)
Yes, and again, we would not tolerate this anywhere else. Nowhere else. And for some reason we tolerate it for the most vulnerable parts of our society.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:01:02.518)
Andrew, anything to add before we wrap? Ryan, if people want to find you or what you do or maybe get a hold of you, how do they do that?
Ryan Hoover (01:01:13.337)
Fit2Fight.com, that's spelled out three words, Fit2Fight.com. They can email me at Ryan at Fit2Fight.com. I'm pretty good with email. I do. I'm not going to call your mama or anything like that. I will respond to you because I can put whatever I want in writing. I'm not worried about the retribution of it. Remember, I'm painfully unlikable. I'm unbothered.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:01:23.776)
You respond. You don't call a third party.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:01:43.15)
I love it. Andrew, what do you want to add on here at end?
Andrew Adams (01:01:47.42)
As always, if people have comments on this episode, they can always comment in our Facebook group. You can go to YouTube and make comments there. We really do read all of those that come in.
Ryan Hoover (01:02:01.485)
Awesome.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:02:01.582)
Spotify and if you want to email Andrew at jeremy at whistlekick.com. Ryan, thanks for being here. Andrew, thanks for being here. I appreciate all of you out there in the audience. And if you have
Ryan Hoover (01:02:10.751)
Thanks for everything.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:02:17.213)
Stuff to contribute to this that would benefit all of us. We definitely want to hear it. So Yeah, all right Thank you gentlemen, and thank you to all of you Andrew do we want to try it? All right
Ryan Hoover (01:02:23.225)
Yeah, I'd love to hear it.
Thanks guys.
Jeremy Lesniak (01:02:35.266)
Train hard. And Ryan, you say have a great day.
Andrew Adams (01:02:36.946)
Smile.
Ryan Hoover (01:02:40.035)
Have a great day.