Episode 1131 - The Differences Between Training Hard and Training Well
There is a difference between training hard and training well. Jeremy and Andrew discuss those differences as well as way to make sure that you are training well (and maybe hard at the same time).
The Differences Between Training Hard and Training Well - Episode 1131
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Jeremy and Andrew discuss various aspects of martial arts training including the importance of balancing intensity with quality. They emphasize that training hard does not equate to training well and that effective training requires a focus on quality repetition and incremental progress.
TAKEAWAYS
Training hard doesn't mean you train well.
Exhaustion is not proof of progress.
Quality of repetition is more important than quantity.
Incremental progress is essential in martial arts.
Intensity should be balanced with technique and safety.
Effective training requires understanding individual goals.
Martial arts training should focus on long-term improvement.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
01:53 The Importance of Training Hard vs. Training Well
12:51 Understanding Progress in Martial Arts Training
25:56 Concluding Thoughts on Effective Training
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy Lesniak (10:53.455)
Hey everybody, what's going on? Welcome back to another episode of WhistleCake Martial Arts Radio. Today, Andrew and I are gonna talk about the difference, I had to check the list, the difference between training hard and training well. I wanted to get it right. And we try to get everything right that we do here. And you know what? We get a lot more right than we do wrong. Cause we've been doing this for a long time. We are in our 11th year.
We have just started our 11th year of martial arts radio, which is why this is episode 1100 and who knows what, and you can find every episode at whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com. Now a lot of you have signed up for the email list. Thank you. It helps make our job easier, helps us push the numbers, and it means you don't have to go hunting for episodes. They show up in your inbox every Monday and Thursday with the audio and video versions ready to go. How do you sign up for the newsletter? You go to whistlekickmarshallartsradio.com.
and you hit the link at the top so you can sign up. If you can't find it or you refuse to use web pages, I don't know, something, you can email one of us, jeremy at whistlekick.com, andrew at whistlekick.com, and we will add you to the list. It really is that simple. Thank you for being here. Thanks for being part of our extended family. Now, Andrew, this is a subject that I think internet comments.
has made much more significant this idea that training hard is all that matters.
Andrew Adams (12:26.894)
Yeah, yeah, I would agree. And, you know, this topic is interesting to me because I use something similar when it comes to music and learning an instrument in terms of practicing. You can practice really hard or you can practice really well. And they are two different things.
Jeremy Lesniak (12:45.551)
So you do not have your idea of good music practice is not as loud as you can all the time. I'm gonna generate as much sound as I can from this drum. That's not what you do. No, okay.
Andrew Adams (12:54.19)
Correct.
Yeah, Yep, exactly. And what you're doing and how you're doing it makes a big difference.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:06.275)
And I think what I love about you floating that metaphor is there is so much in common between music and martial arts. We've seen over the years when we do guest interviews, there is an above average percentage of musicians that come on the show as guests. And of course, when I pose that question, do you just bang the drum as hard as you can and that's how you get better? It's ridiculous. Obviously that's not true. Nobody would think that's true.
Andrew Adams (13:21.655)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:34.649)
But yet there are plenty of people who think that martial arts training, if it is not right up against the safety line and full bore is useless.
Andrew Adams (13:45.772)
Yeah, exactly. Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak (13:48.621)
Now, where do you think that comes from?
Andrew Adams (13:54.551)
You know, I think it's a societal issue. think we, everybody thinks that working hard is good work. And that's not always the case. if, here's an example, I think this is not a fully fleshed out idea, but if you want to get stronger, if you want strong arm strength, right? One of, one of the things you can do is pushups, right? Pushups, they're going to help.
So I can for a hundred days in a row, try and bang out a hundred pushups. Like I'm working hard, but is that really the best way for me to get stronger? It is a way. And I'm definitely working hard. I'm doing a hundred pushups. I'm working hard, but that doesn't mean I'm training well.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:37.985)
It is egg white, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (14:49.773)
And I think there's an important distinction there. On day one of doing 100 push-ups, what do the last few push-ups look like? Are they any good? Right? I think you're right. I think there's a cultural influence here. We want more horsepower in the car. We want to go faster. We want to shorten the time of anything that is required. If some food is good, more food is better, right? We have become the culture of more now.
Andrew Adams (14:56.426)
good. That's a good point. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (15:20.536)
And we tend to miss that there is this threshold in everything where.
It tips over and it goes from efficient or beneficial to less efficient and less beneficial. Here's one of the things I don't know how many in our audience have ever played with the speed feature with podcasts. You can turn up or down the speed. I went through a phase where I was listening to a lot of podcasts at 1.4, right? So 40 % faster than they're released. And I was
getting through a lot of podcasts, but two things were happening. One, I wasn't retaining as much information, which made it less enjoyable. And two, it was actually giving me anxiety because the people I was listening to driving in the car were talking so fast and they're talking like this. And so my heart rate's coming up because I'm around a bunch of people, not literally, but sort of talking really fast. There is a point of diminishing return and
I think we see that often in martial arts. Now there's a cost, right? It's not just inefficient, but there can be a cost in the context of martial arts of always pushing that intensity. And I'm guessing you've seen that just as much as I have.
Andrew Adams (16:48.608)
Yeah, yeah. both in terms of martial arts and like I mentioned before of, terms of, music as well.
Jeremy Lesniak (16:54.031)
Mmm
Jeremy Lesniak (16:59.811)
The thing that comes to mind first when I think of that, the intensity piece, is injury. And if I'm always going hard and I'm always going fast, I'm always going to be injured. And that's not a good way to be.
Andrew Adams (17:05.038)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (17:16.654)
Yeah, it's hard. If you're always injured, you're going to have everything you do from that point. Like, let's just say it's a minor thing and something you could do it 100 % before. You're only doing it 90 % because you're injured. If you continue to work at 90%, you're never going to heal and you're never going to be able to go back to 100%.
Jeremy Lesniak (17:41.775)
If we take your pushup example, if I'm, even though I can only do 20 pushups well and 50 pushups if I just continue to grind them out, if I do 100, I may not be injured, but I'm gonna be way too sore. And one of the things, if we take that example, the body is gonna dedicate energy to repair or growth. Those are not the same thing.
Andrew Adams (17:58.147)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:10.233)
When you do a bunch of pushups, it doesn't create micro tears in your muscles and that's not how it works. I know a lot of us were told stuff like that when we were kids. That's not how it works. So the body's gonna prioritize the recovery over the progress. And that occurs in just about everything. If we're talking about something physical with the body. Why does that happen? Because it puts you at risk of death.
Andrew Adams (18:23.565)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (18:40.291)
from an evolutionary perspective to be not recovered, but stronger. Right? You have to recover, not necessarily first, the two can occur a little bit in parallel, but it's not one and the same.
Andrew Adams (18:56.399)
Yeah. And, and we all know, hopefully anyway, we all know that, you know, one of the best ways to get better at something of learning something is to do it a bunch, right? Repetition. Repetition is important. Whether, it doesn't matter whether you're learning a form, although that's an important part of it, of forms, but even if just something as simple as throwing a jab, the more you throw that jab and work at throwing a better jab, you will get better at throwing that better jab. Or in music.
practicing something, the more you repeat something, that repetition is important. But I think the quality of that repetition is what's more important. You know, if I have a student who is going to practice this drumming rudiment or this part, you know, 400 times in a day, that's great. Except if they're practicing it poorly, they're just ingraining in themselves how to play it wrong.
Jeremy Lesniak (19:55.567)
Martial arts, and I've said this as part of a seminar component many times, martial arts is just about the only thing I know where we say, you are able to do this thing slowly. You are doing it at a passable standard. Now go do it as hard and fast as you can.
in an environment where other people are trying to not let you do that thing. That's insane. We would never do that with anything else. Okay, you're able to turn on the car and kind of slowly drive around the parking lot. Let's get you in a Formula One race. Right, like that's ridiculous. You know how to hold two drumsticks and go.
Andrew Adams (20:35.12)
Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (20:44.759)
let's call Dave Grohl and get you on stage with the Foo Fighters. Right? Like, I struggle to find another example where this happens in a logical way, but this is quite often logic that we put forward as martial artists. And it is from this observation that years ago, I came up with the notion of the dials, right? And you've worked with me long enough, you know, we do this, the idea of from zero to five.
modulating both speed and strength independently. And when we start to look at things that way, we can be intentional with progress and not just do, again, what a lot of schools do from one to five or really one to four in that model.
Andrew Adams (21:31.158)
Yeah. Yeah. And that good repetition, like doing good reps of something I think is just super important. Here's an example. People that are not watching, you should go to YouTube and watch and hit that like and subscribe button. But let's say I'm a beginner and I'm going to practice my punches and I'm going to put my thumb inside of my hand. Right. We all know that's a recipe for disaster.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:47.759)
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak (21:57.143)
I know of no school that teaches that. We have pretty few universals, but I think that might be one.
Andrew Adams (21:58.808)
Yep. I don't know of any that does, but I'm, but I'm going to practice all my blocks and punches, not on a bag, just in the air, but I'm going to work really hard at practicing these blocks and these punches with the wrong hand position. I'm I'm training hard. It doesn't mean I'm training well.
Jeremy Lesniak (22:20.035)
Right, that is not quality repetition. That's just randomly applying intensity. there are people, and I gotta be honest, I think a lot of the people that are pushing this are people who do not actively train under another instructor. Now, that's just, that's my assessment. Now, maybe that's not true.
Andrew Adams (22:25.775)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (22:49.293)
Maybe I'm completely off on that. But when I hear these comments, it is generally from people who are newer in their journey.
or they're at a point where they're not physically active and they're just, you know, crapping on what other people are doing.
But we exist in a space where we accept small progress, incremental progress over time is the way forward. It is the way human beings learn everything. We make a bunch of mistakes. We make these small improvements over time. We cement those improvements into how and what we do. And that's what progress looks like.
Andrew Adams (23:21.423)
Mm-hmm
Jeremy Lesniak (23:36.909)
but when we apply intensity too quickly.
It could be as simple as now we're getting really good at the wrong thing, as you said, know, punching with my thumb inside my fist. God, I don't even like doing that on camera. you know what? This is going to get clipped out. People are going to one day they're going to say, see, Jeremy doesn't know martial arts. We'll get what he's doing. Good luck. 1129. That's the episode this came from.
Andrew Adams (23:51.225)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (24:12.313)
But it could also be a lot worse because a lot of this high intensity stuff people are doing on their own. I'm gonna do a hundred pushups a day. I'm gonna do all these burpees. I'm gonna do all these kicks. I'm gonna kick the bag, you know, a hundred times on each side. I just learned the kick last week.
Not only are you possibly likely reinforcing some poor movement patterns, you could be creating long term injury risk for yourself. You know, I've seen I've seen people who do funny things with with their. Here's one. Here's one that drives me nuts.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:08.001)
In order for a lot of people to kick higher, they will bend their support knee or come up on their back foot, come up on their toes to release the hamstring, the posterior chain. So because that is the limiting factor for a lot of people doing a forward, let's say a front kick, ax kick, something like that.
If that is not corrected, right, if they do a million and one reps and they're encouraged to keep doing this, what happens the day that their support leg calf is fatigued and they're up and that foot drops?
Andrew Adams (25:43.821)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (25:49.945)
They could blow a hamstring. They could become really hurt with that. When we do pushups, how many people like to do their pushups? Here, I'll try to get this on camera, where the index fingers point in a little bit. It flares the elbows, lets us recruit some additional muscles on the back of the shoulder. But long-term, that's not gonna help your shoulders. Long-term, that's a recipe for rotator cuff surgery.
Andrew Adams (26:15.535)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (26:16.555)
And if we spent enough time, we're not going to, we could probably come up with a few more that are fairly common in what we do. Hip stuff, knee stuff, there's a lot of hip and knee stuff. Where's that hip and knee stuff coming from? It's not coming from walking. It's coming from some manner of movement pattern because you know what? We're designed to move our hips in a certain range of motion. We're designed to move our knee in a certain range of motion. And all of our...
almost all of our traditional martial arts techniques work with the body. So something is off as we're doing.
Andrew Adams (26:50.915)
Yeah. And I think depending on what you're doing, your hard training can hide bad mistakes or bad training.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:00.095)
I think that that is the reason a lot of people like to do it. When you see someone rushing through a form, what's the number one thing you're thinking when you're watching that? They're just trying to get through it because they don't know it well, they're nervous of a certain part, they're just, let's turn up intensity and let's finish it because maybe nobody will know.
Andrew Adams (27:09.219)
They're just trying to get through it.
Andrew Adams (27:23.491)
Yeah. Yeah. And let's be clear that it doesn't mean that intensity is not important. There is a time and a place for it. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak (27:33.231)
For sure when when we talk about what good training, you know designing good training actually looks like Intensity is a necessary component in there But I was I was giving this This chat with a newer student last night because he was he was asking, you know We were doing some kicks on the shields and he asked after class He said, you know, am I supposed to be hitting that as hard as I can? What is what is my goal? And we were talking about this idea that
If you think of a real world scenario, even if we're, it's not the main reason that we train, we've agreed on this show for most of us, that's a component. We want to be able, if someone's trying to hurt us, we want to be able to perform and keep ourselves and maybe other people safe. What are all the things that go into that? Well, I've got to be strong enough. I've got to be fast enough. I've got to be able to block. I've got to be able to move. I've got to be able to strike or kick or grab. There are...
a whole bunch of components that we get really detailed on it that go into a fight. I cannot practice, intensity is one of them, I cannot practice all of them simultaneously, safely, more than once because my students are gonna leave. it's day one? Okay, great. Come here, bang. Why didn't you hit me back? Why didn't you block that? Right, like that's an insane example.
Andrew Adams (28:49.326)
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (28:56.944)
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (28:59.267)
But what we can do is with various drills, because everything is a drill, we can take one or two or three or depends on the drill, a bunch of the components of a fight and combine them in a way that is both safe and beneficial. So in the example of this guy kicking the shield, well, he's working on technique because he's not doing kick, kick, kick, kick, kick.
He's able to reset in between and think, okay, where's your feet? I'm able to offer some correction. And when he strikes, he's able to practice generating power through that. And we're doing enough reps that he gets some self feedback. this is what happens. This is how that feels, right? So we have a couple of those things there. Now we could have added another component. I could have been moving around a bit that would have added, you know, controlling, you know, doing range and distance stuff, right? So you can see how we start to stack those pieces together.
And you've taught plenty of classes. I know you do this too.
Andrew Adams (30:02.573)
Yeah. And, you know, and also can help work that timing as well, right? Depending on the distancing and that timing too. Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak (30:09.391)
Sure, sure. To me, good training leads to good progress. And we know it's good training when it's not ignoring the pieces of that fight, right? And for those of you out there who have a school and you're responsible for curriculum, if you've never sat down and thought about what are all the things that go into a fight? What are all the things that are necessary?
You might want to make a list. Most schools, all schools, focus on certain aspects. Some schools ignore some of them. One of them that I think is incredibly important that I see a lot of schools ignore is the need to respond in some manner of free-form movement, right? Not scripted movement under pressure. There are schools that I've trained at and visited.
and the only time they are under real pressure.
Jeremy Lesniak (31:15.407)
is when it's scripted. They know exactly what they're supposed to do. They know where the punch or the kick is coming. It's part of a set.
Andrew Adams (31:22.04)
And one could argue that actually takes the pressure out because, you know,
Jeremy Lesniak (31:25.687)
It does. It becomes pretty, it's pretty fast to normalize that. And not to say that there isn't value there, there absolutely is. But it's really different when that same setup, instead of me stepping back with one punch, I'm gonna step in and punch you, what if it's either hand? Now it's different. And I've seen people fall apart just not knowing which hand it's going to be or which foot it's going to be.
Andrew Adams (31:37.109)
yes, yes,
Andrew Adams (31:45.262)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (31:53.71)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (31:53.997)
It's still scripted, it's still one technique, right? And so when we start to think about all those components, we can start to evaluate whether students are progressing for their remaining status.
Andrew Adams (32:07.76)
Yeah. And so for some things, it's easier to, uh, to tell whether you're progressing, um, something, you know, something you're easier forms are probably the easiest, I think, to tell if you're progressing because it's easier to film yourself performing it as you're learning it. In fact, and I encourage students to film that not just themselves, but film me. presenting the form. I'm teaching the form to them.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:30.178)
Absolutely.
Andrew Adams (32:36.368)
video me doing it, you have something to work from, but then video yourself as well. And so I think in that, in those types of situations, it's much easier. If three, four months go by, they video themselves again, you can compare one to the other. And so I think it's, it's easier there. It's a little harder with some other things.
Jeremy Lesniak (32:56.353)
Mm-hmm, for sure.
It is not possible, it is not possible, you will not convince me otherwise, it is not possible to progress at absolutely every aspect of martial arts if you've been training for a significant period of time. If I'm brand new and I don't know how to punch or kick, I don't know anything about technique, I don't know any forms, my flexibility's terrible, I'm weak and deconditioned.
I can show up to class and I can get better at all of those things pretty much just by being there because I haven't been doing any of that. But as you get further along, you reach a tipping point for everything. And in most schools, there is a tipping point on everything because of the way they handle their classes. Some schools are more focused on flexibility. Their students are more flexible. Shocker, right? It makes sense. But if you've been training a while, especially if you have a
Andrew Adams (33:51.536)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (33:57.325)
you a lot of forums and you spar and you do weapons and maybe you've got a big self-defense curriculum and, and, and, and, and, and.
You've only got so many hours in the day. And even if you are a full-time instructor, those of you who are not full-time instructors might think that, if I'm a full-time instructor, I just keep getting better at everything all the time because I'm doing it so much. No. In fact, many of the martial arts instructors I talk to feel like they get even less time working on their own material. Yeah, you're nodding along.
Andrew Adams (34:35.128)
Yeah, it's actually kind of funny because in a few weeks, a interview will be coming out where this exact topic is discussed that one of the biggest myths or fallacies in martial arts is when you're an instructor and you open your own school, you're going to get to train a lot more. It might not really be the case.
Jeremy Lesniak (34:44.163)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak (34:57.411)
The only way that happens is if you literally or figuratively hit the lottery, you open your doors, you're teaching a few hours a night, but you have your own rented space and somehow you've got the numbers to make a bunch of money so you don't have to spend all your time on marketing or getting another job. I don't know very many people doing that. I'm sure it's out there.
Andrew Adams (35:17.967)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (35:26.019)
I think the way to track progress, because that is true, because we can't just say I'm better at everything all the time, me tracking my progress has to go back to what are my reasons for training? What are my goals? If my top goal is being as ready for an unplanned confrontation, you know, a street fight, whatever, as possible, I know what aspects of my training matter. I want to make sure I continue to get stronger. I want to make sure I continue to...
remain, you know, get in better and better shape. I want to stay as uninjured as possible because every injury I collect makes me less likely to win a fight. I want to make sure that the most likely attacking techniques are the ones that I am best prepared to defend against. The techniques that I'm most likely to use in response are the ones I'm training the most and those continue to get better and so forth, right?
Andrew Adams (36:01.085)
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak (36:22.009)
But that's really different if my goal is competition or my goal is long-term health and longevity. And if I've got multiple goals, now I have to find ways to balance them. And this is where, yeah, if you're brand new, maybe you don't have the context to ask and answer your own questions like this. But if you've been training, I would say more than five years, you absolutely know why you train and what your goals are.
and you know for sure whether or not how you are training is impacting those goals.
Andrew Adams (36:56.357)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That it's, know, that the hard, you can still train hard and train well, but I think it's important to understand the difference and the distinction between the two.
Jeremy Lesniak (37:12.697)
To say it another way, being exhausted doesn't mean that you got better. Most of us like a good hard class sometimes. I like being sweaty and sore at the end of a class. I don't like doing that every class. It's a component of our training. It is not the entirety of our training.
Andrew Adams (37:18.438)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (37:26.906)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (37:35.813)
Yep. Exhaustion is not proof of progress.
Jeremy Lesniak (37:42.287)
Okay. If you have things to add, we would love to hear from you. You can always email us. You can join our Facebook page, Martial Arts Radio. You could make a comment on YouTube or Spotify. We get a lot of comments on Spotify, which is kind of nice. And remember, our shows are out there for you to hopefully help you connect better with your training. If you're an instructor, hopefully it gives you ideas.
for your own training or for your instruction. We're not telling you what you have to do. We're not telling you even what you necessarily should do. We're trying to give you things to think about and hopefully you do think about them and come to your own conclusions and then take those conclusions and incorporate them into what and how you do. If you have a suggestion for another topic, we'd love to hear that too. And remember sign up for the newsletter at Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio.
Anything else to add, Andrew? All righty, until next time, smile and have a great day. Nice.
Andrew Adams (38:41.881)
No, I think that's good.
Andrew Adams (38:46.075)
Train hard and have a great day.