Episode 1146 - Nick Vernon
In this episode Jeremy chats with Nick Vernon about his journey in martial arts, his unique teaching methodologies, and his modular approach to teaching advanced students.
Nick Vernon - Episode 1146
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, host Jeremy Lesniak speaks with Nick Vernon, who shares his extensive journey in martial arts, starting from Tae Kwon Do and transitioning through various styles. They discuss the importance of cross-training, the significance of kata, and how Nick's experiences in the military and with notable martial artists have shaped his approach to training. The conversation emphasizes the integration of different techniques and the lifelong commitment to learning in martial arts. In this conversation, Nick discusses his unique approach to martial arts training, focusing on the purpose and progression of forms, the importance of grappling before striking, and the role of kata in developing practical skills. He emphasizes a student-centric methodology, modular training, and the need for a conceptual understanding of techniques rather than rigid adherence to traditional structures. The discussion also touches on the evaluation of students, the significance of fundamentals, and the philosophical aspects of martial arts practice.
TAKEAWAYS
Nick Vernon has a rich background in martial arts, starting in Tae Kwon Do.
He transitioned from ITF to other martial arts styles throughout his journey.
Nick's training has been influenced by notable martial artists and instructors.
He values the integration of different martial arts techniques.
Nick's experiences in the military shaped his martial arts training.
He believes in the importance of kata in martial arts practice.
Nick teaches a selective number of kata to his students.
His approach to martial arts is a blend of traditional and practical techniques.
Forms serve a purpose and should be chosen intentionally.
Teaching should start with grappling to build a foundation.
Kata is a training tool, not just a performance metric.
Testing should be based on practical application, not arbitrary standards.
Fundamentals are core concepts that can be applied at various levels.
A modular training approach allows students to explore their interests.
Strikes and blocks are functions of the same techniques.
Stances are for training posture, not static positions.
Student input in training modules enhances engagement and retention.
Cultural influences shape martial arts practices, but innovation is essential.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
01:54 Nick's Martial Arts Journey
10:07 Transitioning Between Martial Arts Styles
20:03 Integrating Diverse Training Experiences
24:57 Exploring Martial Arts Forms and Their Purpose
28:34 Teaching Methodology: From Grappling to Striking
32:33 The Role of Kata in Martial Arts Training
36:49 Testing and Evaluation: A New Approach
40:55 Fundamentals vs. Basics: A Conceptual Shift
44:22 The Five Fs of Martial Arts Training
51:00 Modular Training and Student-Centric Approaches
56:22 The Concept of Strikes and Blocks
01:00:37 Stances and Their Practical Application
01:03:42 Closing Thoughts on Bunkai and Martial Arts Philosophy
To connect with Nick Vernon: olympiccombat@gmail.com
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Show Transcript
Jeremy (09:54.696)
What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. And on today's episode, I'm joined by Nick Vernon. My name is Jeremy Lesniak, founder here at Whistlekick, where everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. We've been at it for well over a decade. This episode is beyond 1100 episodes. We bring you a whole bunch of great stuff because we believe martial arts makes us better. And if you
Are like us if you agree with that mission, please check out what we do. Check out whistlekickmarshartsradio.com. Sign up for the newsletter so we can email you direct links to every episode that we ever release. We're not going to send you anything else. We're just going to send you the new episodes. And you can click right on, you can watch, you can listen, and we make it easy. We make it easy for a reason because we just we we want to get this content out there because we believe that.
Reaching more martial artists helps the industry, helps all of you, connects you, connect, educate, and entertain is kind of our slow bit over here. So thanks for joining us and spending some time. And Nick, we're here. It only took us a little while.
Nick (11:07.983)
Yes, sir, it did, but we're here now.
Jeremy (11:09.415)
Now now should we should we should we tell the audience the irony of it taking a while? Two two I two IT professionals bested by a microphone?
Nick (11:18.648)
sure.
Yes, yes, technical difficulties abound.
Jeremy (11:28.155)
They do. They do. If if technical difficulties did not abound, you probably wouldn't have a job.
Nick (11:33.808)
Also true.
Jeremy (11:35.511)
Which has right, there there's a there's mixed feelings on that. There are. Yeah.
Nick (11:40.26)
There are. There are definitely mixed feelings. I I'm not the biggest fan of what I do, but it pays the bills and the intangibles that I get from the position that I'm currently in are are pretty amazing. So I can't complain too much. But yeah, IT is definitely not my forte.
Jeremy (11:55.654)
Yeah, it it's you know, there's so there's something to be said and I I think this is this was my frustration with it.
Jeremy (12:05.435)
There are only two states.
You're bored or things are broken and people are mad.
Now, maybe in different environments it's not quite like that, but that was my experience. And and it had the added pressure because it was it was a it was my own business. So not only was I bored, I wasn't making money. I was bored and broke, or people were mad that things were broken. It was broke you broke or broken. And those were that was it.
Nick (12:19.702)
Yeah, that's pretty close.
Nick (12:38.154)
I'm bored a lot, but at least I'm salary, so
Jeremy (12:40.953)
Yes. Well, if you're bored in a salaried position, you're probably good at your job.
Nick (12:46.527)
decent at it, but I read a lot.
Jeremy (12:47.612)
Yeah.
Is the there there are quite a few people, and I won't rat any of them out that I know Mondays and Thursdays. Martial arts radio is part of their work routine. They don't listen in the car, they don't watch later. It's what they do while they're checking email because you know they really only have three hours of work in an eight hour day. So they gotta they gotta fill the time somehow.
Nick (13:17.111)
That sounds like a lot.
Jeremy (13:22.351)
Mm.
you you mentioned some of the benefits that you have working in your job or do you are any of those related to opportunities to train or timing or you know, is is there a benefit there in the martial arts side? Yeah.
Nick (13:38.173)
Absolutely. It it definitely frees up time for training. But what it did was it allowed me to kind of incorporate all of my wants, needs, desires into a schedule because, you know, God knows we don't have enough hours in the day to accomplish everything we'd like to. And so working from home a lot or even when I go to the office, everything's project based, so I'm salary. It's it's given me the flexibility to not only train, but to
Jeremy (13:41.767)
Mm.
Jeremy (13:51.399)
Mm.
Nick (14:05.658)
be present for my family, be there for my kids. And, you know, training doesn't take away from that either. So it's given me the opportunity to to have enough time in the day to do the things that I'd like to do.
Jeremy (14:16.919)
Nice. Nice. That's great. Now I see some martial arts paraphernalia on the wall. So so do we do we infer that you're an ITF?
Nick (14:24.027)
Yeah.
Nick (14:29.85)
That's where I started. I started in Taekwondo and and ITF. actually started pre well not pre ITF, but I started with a gentleman named Hong Sikkim. And it was essentially ITF, but it was early eighties, more Shotokan esque. so you know, no sine wave. Yeah.
Jeremy (14:30.503)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy (14:51.533)
Jeremy (14:57.435)
Yeah. Okay. All right. So so okay. So folks out there who have either not trained in ITF or not read Alex Gillis's book. I don't know if you've read Alex Gillis's book. You got a copy of it right there, A Killing Art? Yeah, that one. That one. you may not be catching how significant this is. So maybe, maybe for the for the folks who don't know what what you're talking about.
Nick (14:59.043)
The the old stuff.
Nick (15:14.296)
I was like this one?
Jeremy (15:26.961)
need to explain sine wave, but talk about the s significance of that early eighties period versus I think it was eighty eight that that things split.
Nick (15:36.618)
Yeah, it was it was later. I didn't come into that in ITF until you know late I eighties, early nineties. But it was the the older Taekwondo was definitely a karate derivative. even a lot of the katas or the forms that they practiced were karate forms. And so it was a lot of hip rotation and back leg drive and
Jeremy (15:53.477)
Yeah.
Nick (16:05.516)
things like that to generate power and it was less about sine wave. sine wave is it has a place, but it doesn't work in practicality. And so what I mean by that is when you're looking at backlight drive and hip rotation is you can kind of be in any stance and if you're grounded, you're using your body to to create that that torsion or torque for whatever
technique you're trying to apply. In Sine Wave, it was all about timing and body weight drop and pushing forward in order to affect that momentum, which is great when you're in static positions. So teaching you how to move through static positions and through different techniques, it's really cool, but it doesn't work if you're standing up trying to box with somebody. So there's a place for there's a place for it and it works really well when you use them in conjunction with each other.
But neither one is is perfect as a standalone.
Jeremy (17:08.313)
I I've always said that a sine wave is a great concept, but it's a subtle addition to what you're doing. And I I think a a lot of folks take it and it becomes this really big thing, you know, this massive up and down movements. And yeah, you know, dropping at the end of the technique. I think if you turn if if if the big action that I see most people using is a hundred percent, if you dial it down to five percent and you add it to other things you're doing, I see a lot of value there.
Nick (17:38.166)
Absolutely. Like there needs to be a an integration or a synergy between the the different methods. And a lot of what Sinewaves became is if you're looking at at martial arts as an art and and just as an art and you want to be a practitioner, it's a really cool tool. But if you want to be if you want your martial arts to be more applicable and pragmatic, then it's not efficient. So it's just a trade off. Depends on what you're looking for.
Jeremy (18:08.465)
So early eighties, so is that your introduction to training?
Nick (18:13.227)
Yeah, I started training in summer of nineteen geez. Maybe nineteen eighty three. The same summer that Karate Kid came out. But my interest in martial arts like predated that, so
Jeremy (18:25.979)
Yeah.
Jeremy (18:29.615)
Mm.
What
Where, how, why?
Nick (18:37.1)
Yeah, I I really don't know. where where I lived at the time and the things that I was doing, my my dad had always kind of been into the boxing and we watched some combat sports on TV, like with boxing. We did we watched some of the early show Kosoge ninja movies. those came out early 80s, and all I can think was that those movies at that time were flashy enough that it was like, hey, I want to do that.
Jeremy (18:43.111)
You just
Jeremy (18:51.015)
Mm.
Jeremy (19:02.523)
Yeah.
Nick (19:10.695)
But you know, I I I predated Karate Kid, I predated Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. All of that stuff came to me as a young martial artist. So as I started martial arts, I had a ton of things to consume. But it's not what got me started initially.
Jeremy (19:27.184)
Interesting.
Jeremy (19:33.415)
So it was it ty it was Taekwondo that where you started?
Nick (19:36.338)
Taekwondo is where I started. But even then it wasn't Taekwondo was kind of like almost a subtitle because everything we were doing was Korean karate.
Jeremy (19:50.108)
And and I I guess where where on the timeline do we take the next hop? So you're you're young, you're doing you're training, you know, we don't have to put too too direct a label on it. but you're doing that for a little bit and then what?
Nick (20:07.343)
So I did I did that for a while. I was training under a gentleman named Dan Huntington, and he was incorporated with Honks at Kim. at that time it was still very structured. Master Kim ran all of the promotions, even for color belts, everything. And so even though I had an instructor and we were at a separate site, we would go to Master Kim School for testing and all of that.
somewhere in that mid eighties range, my instructor was introduced to General Che directly, as well as his US counterpart that he worked with, which was Chuck Saraf. And so he kind of started taking instructions from them, and we we slowly just integrated and became an ITF school.
Jeremy (21:04.551)
Mm.
Nick (21:05.32)
and started incorporating some of the other things. But then we were going to we were going to seminars in Colorado with the general, all that before his passing. So general General Shea actually sat at my first on grading. So
Jeremy (21:22.375)
That's that's really cool. So, all right, a few things that we gotta talk about there. The first one is there aren't a whole lot of people that end up in, let's call it a transition like that, where you're moving from one grandmaster to another. It's usually for political reasons.
Nick (21:44.502)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (21:46.236)
Maybe this one is n less so for political reasons. I d I
Nick (21:50.951)
Maybe, but I was young enough that the the political d the diversion there and or the division there and between the instructors and what was going on politically with all of them, like I was oblivious to that. I was young enough, I was just a student. all I knew is we made this transition, but we made a transition to, you know, the per the person that had essentially developed what we had been practicing. So it's like, why not do this?
Jeremy (21:53.126)
Okay.
Jeremy (22:15.302)
Yeah.
Jeremy (22:19.759)
Right. And that's kinda why I'm saying maybe this one wasn't for political reasons because
Jeremy (22:26.961)
you have an opportunity to train with the one who made it, you know, you kinda you should kinda do that. Otherwise you should go do something else. Ki kinda yeah.
Nick (22:30.28)
Mm-hmm.
Nick (22:34.13)
Yeah.
That's kind of ended up being the story of my my life actually is is bouncing from from like master to master and and training. Like I mean, obviously I have a core in Taekwondo. It's kind of where my heart is just because where I started. But at the same time, I understand that not everything is is practical. So it's you know, it's imperative to cross train and learn more things and always keep an open mind. And so I've always looked for those chances to train with other people and have met some pretty notable people along the way. So it's been pretty fun.
Jeremy (22:40.774)
Really?
Jeremy (23:06.245)
Nice. Nice. Now you me mentioned General Che had sat at your first on test?
Nick (23:11.983)
Yes.
Jeremy (23:16.751)
How's that?
Nick (23:19.253)
Jeremy (23:20.165)
Because and and here here okay, here here's why. Here's here's why I'm asking this question this way. Because I again I don't know I don't know if everybody in the audience is gonna is gonna get this in this way. Every time I've ever sat on a test, all of the material that I've ever done was taught to me by people there, but somebody else taught them and said, no, this is how you do it. And maybe they made some adjustments.
Jeremy (23:51.57)
But here you are doing the thing made by the guy, and the guy is watching you do it. There's nobody there's nobody else. There's nobody above him. Yeah, he learned from other people, but it was no, this is how it's done. And I wrote how many volumes of a book to to codify it and make sure it was rigid and correct?
Nick (24:15.233)
Yes.
Jeremy (24:16.561)
That's a unique experience from my vantage.
Nick (24:18.481)
It it was, but he was a kind enough man and we had worked with him enough. so he was present there. it was Grandmaster Chuck Seraph that actually presided like as the president of my board. but we had worked with both of them enough at that point and been to seminars with them that it it was just another day. It didn't I mean, was were there nerves involved? Absolutely.
But it wasn't any different than any other test.
Jeremy (24:49.113)
Okay. Interesting.
Jeremy (24:54.651)
How long did you stay with that organization or group or whatever you wanna call it?
Nick (25:00.11)
I was there for quite a while. I tested for first Dawn when I was 15 years old. I was about to turn 16. And then I stayed with them till I was in my mid-20s. I ended up with my second Dawn and third Dawn through ITF initially, and then came back to it.
Much later in life to kind of finish out after I'd met some other instructors and ended up with my fourth Dawn in ITF typework.
Jeremy (25:36.113)
Okay. Nice.
Jeremy (25:40.729)
And through this time, because you you you kind of foreshadowed part of our conversation early on around cross-training, were were the roots of that desire there at that point?
Nick (25:48.762)
Yes.
Nick (25:54.927)
N not only were they there, but they were encouraged. So Dan Huntington, my first Taekwondo instructor, who remained my instructor until I was an adult and had moved away, he he always encouraged and would bring in people from other arts to do seminars for the classes. And and there was always this realistic expectation that while what we were doing was was solid, it wasn't the only thing. And so there was never
Jeremy (26:10.279)
Mm.
Nick (26:22.722)
There was never that hierarchy or authoritarianism where it's like, no, it's only this way, only my way. Like that was just not a not a thing. And so, yes, when it came to our taekwondo, there was a certain way to do our taekwondo, but it was not the be-all end-all.
Jeremy (26:42.843)
Makes sense. And you said you moved away. So I'm imagining you said fourth dawn. So you've been at it a little bit. It's a big part of your life. I don't know anybody who's reached that rank that didn't make martial arts a big part of their lives. You move away. If you stop training with him, it's because you move far enough that you couldn't commute even periodically. And I'm guessing you wake up one day and you say, I I'm I need to start training again.
Nick (27:05.005)
Yeah.
Nick (27:14.038)
it wasn't that I'd ever really stopped. so I did I did move. I joined the military. And so it was always kind of like in the background and something that I was doing. And while I was both in the military and in college, I was training in Kyokushin. then I finally found another ITF instructor. So I went back and that's where I ended up with my my second Dawn at that time. I'm you know, I'm in my early twenties there.
Jeremy (27:41.949)
okay. Got
Nick (27:44.327)
Right. So ended up with my second Dawn. kind of always I'd always try to kind of seek out an an ITF instructor and kind of keep that line open, but I was constantly doing other things. And throughout my military career, I I went to lots of different instructors. I did military, you know, combatants programs. I participated in the Marine Corps martial arts program. I was one of the original
instructors through the Modern Army Combatives program. I I've just I've always kind of like focused on where can I learn more and and done that. And some of those things have been really interesting. So I was stationed in Arizona for a while. And so while I was in Arizona, I literally took took a month off. I had enough leave built up and I went and trained at the Codacon of Tucson, which was his
Name is Joseph Hulk. He his Japanese name is Metsuno Ochi. He was one of the five founding members of Kajikembo. So I went and trained at his school and and with his son. he was he was old enough, he didn't do a lot of the instruction anymore. He was kind of like working himself out. But his son, Vincent, taught a lot of the classes there. he'd been a SWAT cop in Tucson.
Jeremy (29:01.799)
Mm-hmm.
Nick (29:08.831)
And he brought a more practical approach to their Kajikembo. And Joseph Hulk had brought, he was the contributing member that brought Danzinru Jiu Jitsu and Judo into Kajikembo. So they had a couple styles that they would do or classes that they would do would were more focused on on grappling in and danzenru. I was stationed in New Jersey for a while and I trained under a gentleman named John Potenza, who is
really good friends with Eric Paulson and one of the snake pit guys. So I got to do a lot of seminars and training with with Coach Paulson when he'd come out to do seminars in New Jersey. I've just I've had a really neat experience with trying different things. Yeah.
Jeremy (29:52.176)
You've you've been around some amazing people. Wow. That's that's really cool. What do you do with all that?
Right? Like that that's and and I I say that with a little bit of understanding because through this show I've had some amazing opportunities. And there are days I wake up and I'm just going, I don't I don't always know what to do with all of this. All this that I've learned from these wonderful people. If I learned something from somebody over there, it's like, okay, you know, it's yeah, that's some good stuff and it works, but
Nick (30:04.192)
My Yeah. My my passion is still traditional.
Jeremy (30:31.705)
When you learn stuff from from these absolutely amazing people with incredible credentials and and and you've read about them in magazines or or or whatnot, you you can't just put it on the shelf.
Nick (30:45.948)
No.
Jeremy (30:47.621)
You have to do something with it. Otherwise it's just it
Nick (30:51.005)
All those opportunities also changed me fundamentally. I couldn't just practice one thing anymore. Like even my Taekwondo, even though I tried to be as true as I could to it, my Taekwondo wasn't the same knowing the things that I knew. And so it kind of became to that point where it was like, how do I, you know, I always had this kind of nagging feeling in the back of my head. I'm like, I haven't created anything new. I'm I'm not.
Jeremy (30:54.575)
Hmm. How so?
Nick (31:20.795)
That guy. But the way I do things is is a little bit different. I mean, a straight punch is still a straight punch. The way you hold your knuckles and like you, you know, you line up your stuff is it's all the same. So like I'm not creating anything new, but just the way I kind of go about it and the way we train it is you know, you draw from all those inspirations, and it's definitely made things different.
Jeremy (31:48.53)
What I'm doing right now, you might see, or maybe even hear me typing. I'm just I want to make sure I get the name right. Cause when I did ITF, I had all of my forms stuffed into a really short period of time. So I always get the names messed up. And
Jeremy (32:06.427)
Yeah, it's harong. a v do you? A video from my
Nick (32:09.817)
I actually still do that. Yeah.
Jeremy (32:17.721)
ITF first on test has been popping up on Facebook 18 years ago. I don't know why Facebook's obsessed with showing it to me lately, but I've watched it a couple times. And it just reinforces there's a karate guy doing Taekwondo. Cause I had quite a few years of other things before I started doing Taekwondo. And so that's what it made me think of when you said, you know, it doesn't look the same. And that's something that I I feel like I really feel that in my bones. And and there are times where I'm I'm cool with it.
And then there are other times where it just it feels it almost feels disrespectful. It's like I can't do the thing you want me to do the way you want me to do it, because my body will not move that way. In my case, it never did from what you're saying, I guess, anymore.
Nick (32:55.769)
Absolutely.
Nick (33:07.069)
Right. It's It's almost like imposter syndrome. Like you get this, you're like, I learned this, but who am I to tell somebody? It's yeah, it's a little nerve wracking. It's taken me I mean, I've been involved in martial arts for better part of forty years now. And it's I'm just now getting to that point where I'm like, No, this is how I'm doing it, and I'm confident in what I'm doing. So it's been a minute.
Jeremy (33:34.009)
Yeah, it it's it it's been a min I I also started in eighty three.
Jeremy (33:40.465)
What is what does it look like for you now? What how have you put these pieces together?
Nick (33:48.501)
Well, traditional martial arts are kind of like my my passion. I still really enjoy it. So I I use the term karate loosely. it could mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But I use that term loosely because that's kind of the vehicle in which I go forward. Cause like I said, I haven't created anything new, but like my training methods are are slightly different. And so going forward with with that is I still teach kata because it's not karate if you don't have kata.
But I'm very selective. Like I only teach five kata before black belt.
Jeremy (34:24.348)
Me too.
Nick (34:24.656)
And so right now it's a combination of the Taekwondo kyungs and some and some karate kata and I teach Naihanchi, Poon, Pasai, Waterong, and Rohai.
Jeremy (34:26.801)
What do you teach?
Jeremy (34:45.475)
You are all over the place. I love it. That's awesome.
Nick (34:48.834)
Y you say that, but it's not all over the place. There is a method to the madness.
Jeremy (34:51.515)
Well I I bel I believe that. Okay. I don't I I I hope that doesn't come across disrespectful because that's not how I mean it. What I what I mean is typically when people do this and they're pulling together their, you know, these forms, it's I'm gonna take the forms. I I see it one of two ways usually. All right, we're training this, but we're gonna use the forms from this system. Or
Nick (34:57.059)
No, no, no.
Jeremy (35:18.577)
We're putting together these three, four styles. So you've got to do all the forms. So yellow belt instead of now being one form is like six. Right? I've I've seen well, there's no perfect way to do any of it. You obviously are are intentional with things. How did you arrive at the forms that you're doing in the order you're?
Nick (35:29.648)
Yeah, why do that? That's silly.
Nick (35:45.867)
Okay. now don't don't get me wrong. Like I'm all about the people that just want to do 42 forms. That's if that's how they want to practice their arts, that's great. I'm looking for still keeping my karate pragmatic, right? And so looking at the forms that I chose is Nihonchi gives you it's it's about theme really. So Nihonchi gives you kind of a grounded foundation.
Jeremy (35:54.447)
Yeah.
Nick (36:13.833)
It's how to deal with incoming pressure, how to that close end fight for that stuff. Poon is second, which is a traditional ITF form. It it looks similar in overall application to Nihonchi, but it focuses on keeping your frame and and forward pressure. So after you've received with Naihanchi, you're now pushing back and countering with Poon. it also introduces low-line kicks with sidekicks to the knee.
and does a f a few other things in that realm. But then Pasai is third, which is now that I've transitioned from receiving and built my frame and I'm starting to apply pressure back. Now I can drive forward at different angles and break through my opponent's defenses. And then Wad Rong is range management. It's a lot more ranged attacks, but it also takes the low-line kicks from Nihonchi and Poan and turns them into mid or high level kicks.
So there's progression there. And then Rohai, if you look at the movements, it's all about regaining balance. It's not about moving into a position where you're unbalanced. It's about something happened. You either got attacked, you got pulled offline, something happened, and you're in now in an awkward position because all of the transitions for balance in that are like retreating. So how do you recover balance and recover your position in order to go back through this cycle?
Of how to engage at different ranges. So not only did I I want it to wanted it to serve a purpose, but I also needed it to be just diverse enough that as the core and fundamental concepts, it applied to every different type of fighter out there. So if you want to be a ranged fighter, there's stuff for you. If you want to be a grappler, there's stuff for you. If you want to do something in the middle, there's stuff for you. it has to kind of be all-encompassing. And I look back historically with a lot of the the
older people that we were were like, this master or that master, they they only had three to five, but why did they cross train in the things they did? And it was just to make them a more well rounded fighter. So that's where I kind of went with the approach and I I really tried to dig into what are these forms about, not just the techniques involved.
Jeremy (38:34.999)
Is Nihanshi the first form you're teaching people? Then is that okay. At what
Nick (38:37.578)
Yes.
Jeremy (38:43.163)
This question is going to sound like I have an agenda and asking it, but I don't. At what point do you start teaching them?
Nick (38:49.888)
probably between it it depends on students and I don't run a large commercial school, so it really is student driven. but nobody starts there at White Belt. I don't start teaching Kata until probably their third third belt.
there's a reason for that too.
Jeremy (39:11.311)
Yeah. Let's hear it. Let's hear it. It's I I was I was promised from your form. I was promised someone who does not do things in the conventional way. So I'm I'm I'm excited and interested.
Nick (39:22.302)
I I do not.
So looking at now, I mean I have kids, so I'm like looking at what happens at schools and kids protecting themselves and and and this travels into adults as well, but when you're looking at societal norms and and things, is I didn't want to teach forms and I didn't want to teach striking first. I didn't want I mean, a lot of martial arts schools do a good job of teaching, you know, discipline in regards to when or where to hit somebody, but I didn't want that to be the only or first tool that they had.
So we start with more of a grap of like a fundamental grappling curriculum with some basic jujitsu and judo. And what that does is we introduce that before we start introducing striking. And we're training with each other, we're rolling all the time. And I want the kids to have a like a force continuum or a spectrum of response. So that way, you know, if somebody's trying to come at them and they know that a fight is inevitable.
They can protect themselves and they can put somebody on the ground, they can pin them down, they can do whatever they need to do. But the first instinct is not to punch them in the nose. That comes when these other things fail and now I really need to cause some damage. And so they have their response is based on a on a spectrum.
Jeremy (40:47.899)
How have people responded to that?
Nick (40:50.51)
I mean, since I only teach a few people at a time, it's been fine.
Jeremy (40:55.355)
But my my question is more it's it sounds like everybody starts martial arts with an expectation. It's it sounds like this might be quite a deviation from what they would expect.
Nick (41:03.182)
Yes.
Nick (41:09.09)
Maybe, but a lot of that is, I feel is cultural influence. you know, we see all these flashy things on TV, and and I'm no exception, it's what got me started, right? But it's not it's not reality as far as being able to protect yourselves. There's a lot of martial arts schools that, you know, they may they may or may not market themselves as self-defense, but what they're teaching is not self-defense whatsoever.
There's a fine line there with self-defense as a legal term versus you know being able to protect yourself. And and most most martial arts, if you're striking based, they're teaching, you know, hey, this is how we're gonna end this confrontation. And it becomes a consensual fight. It's not it's not just to protect yourself and run away. So again, everything has a place and a time, but it's it's about changing mindsets and terminology and concepts.
in order to get people to move forward. And that's kind of what I've tried to do with my martial arts. And so that's why I start in a little bit different place. but I also hearken back to the days of Matobu, who if you read his works, he was like teach a person to fight, then teach them kata.
So I think there's a lot of things that we do as martial artists that we do backwards.
If kata is supposed to be this independent practice on your own kind of thing, whether, you know, and we could we could debate all day long whether it was for techniques or just for movement or or whatever. But if I'm teaching the choreography of a of a kata to a white belt and then I tell them to go home and practice it, chances are they're gonna do it 99% wrong.
Nick (42:56.671)
So why am I teaching them that to practice on their own when they don't have an understanding of the fundamental techniques that go into it first?
Jeremy (43:07.323)
I can see that, right? I I can I can see there's a chicken and egg conversation there, but I can absolutely see see your your point. And I don't think I've ever thought of it in that way. And that's really interesting to me. Where did did that concept for you come from his writings? Or did you get or did someone else open your eyes to that?
Nick (43:27.787)
It it did, but it came in conjunction with other things that I had done. So when you're training non-traditional arts, like when I was doing CSW, you know, through Eric Eric Paulson's stuff, or when I'm doing military combatives, there's a focus on the pragmatic and the application. And you can you can crush in a lot of skill on a person, in a rather short period of time if you're focused on the right things.
And so it seemed like while I didn't want to lose some of these aspects because I wanted to keep my stuff considered, you know, what we would consider more traditional, it's not necessary in order to teach somebody how to fight. And so it was like, where do where's the best place for to fit this in and where to train it in a way that I'm teaching them the fundamentals, I'm improving their skill set, I'm slowly advancing them.
down a progression of, you know, grappling to striking to range management to d to different things. But then where do I put kata back in? one thing that I do is I train kata, but I don't test kata.
Jeremy (44:43.551)
okay. You want your students to know it, but you don't evaluate it. So talk to me about that. That's that's different.
Nick (44:55.018)
they're
Jeremy (44:57.803)
I again I get and and and I want to be super clear. You said you've you've paid attention to the show for a bit, so you have a decent understanding of who I am and my motivations. If we have somebody who's new on the show right now, new to the show, they may think that I'm being super judgmental right now, which is absolutely not the case. I'm curious because you're saying things that I've not thought about. And in 10 years of doing this show, it's pretty rare somebody brings something up that
I hadn't thought about. I've never known anybody to have forms in a school and not test the forms as part of rank testing.
Nick (45:38.058)
Well, I mean, let's let's talk about that. What what part of a form do you test? I mean, if you're looking at a if you're looking at a kata, you're either testing their ability just to memorize it or you're testing their arbitrary performance in an aesthetic value.
Jeremy (45:48.389)
Mm-hmm.
Nick (45:57.031)
Neither of which makes them a better fighter.
So I use Kata as a training tool. I teach it. I want them to know it because there is practical application and things that come out of it, but I don't test on it. Because we roll and spar enough that I constantly test students as we go anyway. I don't I also have done away with formal testings. There are no formal gradings. So there's no reason.
We train enough with pressure that there's no reason to place you know, an artificial pressure for a test on somebody when we're constantly rolling or evaluating anyway.
Jeremy (46:38.033)
My original instructors used to say, The test isn't for us. We know what rank you are. It's for you. It's to it's to see if you believe us, essentially.
Nick (46:49.86)
So I do all I do my color belt gradings in class.
Nick (46:56.162)
And they're they're more, you know, just for for the student, for the class. Hey, they you know, this person has hit this. I might I might go a little harder on them on that class and then award it at the end. but there's no formal grading.
Jeremy (47:13.317)
All right. And so if if I was to come and and start training in your school and
Given that I've done some of the same things you've done, what am I gonna find that's really different day to day in in in these classes?
Nick (47:32.862)
With your background and you already knowing even some of the karate kata that that we do is you one, you wouldn't s you know, I I appreciate the mindset of people that are willing to like go back and be a beginner. But at the same time, I respect your efforts and your in your endurance to persevere in martial arts. And if if you've already achieved down grades in something else.
Who am I to take that away from you, especially if it's in something so similar? So I actually treat my transfer students a little different. so for you, in your experience, the way you would come into my curriculum is you would wear a plain black belt with nothing on it, and I would stripe you the color stripes as you progressed through the benchmarks for my curriculum.
Jeremy (48:27.591)
I'm seeing more and more people do it that way and I like it. I really
Nick (48:31.282)
Well, I mean that there's a couple things. I I recognize your rank and your ability to of what you've done. It also signifies to other students. Now I have a small school, so everybody was g is gonna know anyway, but you know, it signifies to the other students you are not a beginner because you're not, but you're new to our curriculum. And so there's you know, you you'd see it. So you'd get your orange stripe and then you'd get your green stripe and then you'd go through. But I also don't apply
arbitrary timelines to anything. I think that's kind of an archaic method. And it it goes back to my personal take on it is it goes back to our own ego as instructors about no, I have to make you wait. No, you can only test up to where I'm at. No, you can only do this. So I have some some really crazy ideas about about that stuff and about where my dam grades go.
Jeremy (49:20.365)
We actually don't have any time requirements in in my school either. I think I think it can be ego, but I also think it can be that there are a lot of schools that have a severe disconnect between their training and their testing.
Nick (49:35.73)
Yes.
Jeremy (49:37.101)
and that their what they require for testing is this big and their training curriculum is this big.
And
Jeremy (49:50.253)
It they they want to make sure you kind of stew in the culture long enough before
They in a lot of schools arbitrarily hand you a new belt. In a there are plenty of schools that I know that the only thing that is evaluated with anything beyond pure subjectivity is forms and whether or not you know it. Basics are purely subjective, sparring, rolling, any any of any of the implementation is just subjective.
Jeremy (50:30.213)
And so it sounds like you and I have have have come at it in different ways, but have recognized that that doesn't necessarily serve serve students. We have all sorts of of evaluation metrics that that they have to trigger across a variety of criteria before they're even eligible.
Nick (50:47.051)
Yeah, you you said I agree, but you said something there that that caught me too is you said basics.
is there's a there's a strange understanding that we have in a way our vocabulary works, right? We don't have basics, we have fundamentals.
Jeremy (51:04.145)
What do you call them? Fundamentals, yeah. Which which is a better word. It really it really is.
Nick (51:07.959)
Well, there there's a reason for it. Because a fundamental is a core concept that needs to be accomplished as part of your learning, right? But your core concept can be applied at a basic, intermediate, or advanced level. So basic is a level of performance, not a technique.
Jeremy (51:29.287)
But but it could also be if you think of it like a basic ingredient, if you think of a recipe. Right? To me that it's flour is a basic ingredient. I can use it in a more complex manner. I can use it in, you know, I can make hardtack biscuits, or I could make I don't know, something that I don't know how to make. Some fancy something cake something, right?
You know, they're both gonna use flour, but they're gonna be used very differently. And yeah, that this is this is one of the challenges in I think in English, is that one word can mean multiple different things. And because to me, jump spinning hookick is still a basic technique. It's basics, it is not a basic technique, you know what I mean.
Nick (52:24.109)
Yeah, so here's here's my take on that is the hook kick is a fundamental
Jeremy (52:29.159)
All right, audience, you're you're you're not even part of this anymore. This is this is this is just gonna be Nick and I chatting for here. All right.
Nick (52:32.453)
The the hook kick is a fundamental technique. The turning or spinning hook kick is a secondary technique. And the jump spinning hook kick would be a tertiary technique. They're all just icing on a cake. So you have your cake is your fundamentals. You put some frosting on it, you got your secondary layer. Now you had some sprinkles on the top. That's your tertiary layer. So it's the levels of performance is how I is how I look at the if it's basic intermediate.
Jeremy (52:44.109)
okay.
Jeremy (52:52.879)
Nick (53:00.156)
Or advanced in performance. So if you take something as simple as a front snap kick and you think about that first day white belt performing a front snap kick, and it's it's usually off target, their knees not up, they kind of flick their leg out, it's a lot of heel. but then you look at a 10-year black belt performing a front snap kick and it's high knee, they're using their knee to target, they thrust out, they're using the ball of the foot. You know, it's still a fundamental technique.
But performed at two different levels. The white belt's performing at a basic level, and that black belt's performing at an advanced level. So that's the mindset that we're like we're trying to go with to like kind of teach people like, no, no, no, no, this is why this is important. It's not a basic, it's it's a core concept that you need, and you can perform at it at a different level.
Nick (53:50.709)
But that
Jeremy (53:51.131)
The other word that I've I've found myself using at times is not fundamental but foundational.
Nick (53:55.955)
Yes. Yeah. But that also takes me to back to, you know, we were talking earlier about how the the testing versus the training does not always equal out. But you look at you look at things like Japanese karate where they have the three K karate where you have Kihan Kata Kumite, right? And a lot of those things don't correlate with each other. But I've I've updated my list to five Fs.
Jeremy (54:04.975)
Mm.
Nick (54:22.293)
So it's fitness.
Jeremy (54:23.953)
I'm nervous anytime anybody uses a list and it's Fs, I'm nervous to ask what's what's in it because inevitably one of them's gonna be inappropriate. But I'll I'll I'll o alright. Well I'll I'll trust you. Let's see.
Nick (54:33.118)
It's not in this case.
Nick (54:37.242)
But just in this case, fitness, fundamentals, function, fighting, and forms. And then those are all nested. So they're not necessarily you can train them out of order, but they all nest within the order. So if you don't have the fitness to perform the fundamental techniques, then you need to work on that. Then you have the fundamental techniques, which leads into your functions. So you start learning the applications and how your techniques are supposed to be applied. Then you learn how to fight with them.
And then I go back and I teach you the kata. So that way now that you have the understanding and experience of how to fight your techniques, now when you're practicing your kata, you can actually visualize and understand how your techniques are applied.
Jeremy (55:21.361)
Form is the last one.
Jeremy (55:25.241)
It it's interesting. You're the only person, other person I know, who has kind of switched up the order. So I take the the the 3K karate, and to me it's Kihon Kumite Kata. For a very different reason. I've I've said I've I've known plenty of people who are very skilled fighters, and I would not call them broadly skilled martial artists. But I have not known anyone who
Nick (55:52.045)
Yes.
Jeremy (55:54.938)
is really good at forms of any style that is not at least decent at their basics and their sparks.
Nick (56:06.547)
see, I disagree.
Jeremy (56:06.735)
I'm sure there are people I'm sure there are people out there that are, but the people that I've known who are really good at forms, the rest of their stuff is good.
Nick (56:09.589)
Yeah.
Nick (56:17.823)
Well, I mean, usually there's a level of athleticism that goes into it. I mean, strong fit people are harder to kill, right? Like that's just a reality. But the but looking at it is I know some extremely phenomenal martial artists who you know, super flashy, their technique looks great, but they couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. So it it goes both ways.
Jeremy (56:21.713)
Who?
Or I wrote a book that called that.
Jeremy (56:43.739)
We might be evaluating the forums in different ways too. And it could also be sample set, you know, based on based on who I've been around.
Nick (56:46.919)
Also true.
Nick (56:51.612)
And most of that was my most of that was from my taekwondo days.
Nick (56:57.918)
So there's some phenomenal martial artists in the taekwondo community that you watch their stuff, they're amazing. But they're just they're not fighters. It's just not who they are.
Jeremy (57:12.913)
When you take a look at your students and their progress.
Are you finding that they are progressing based on what is important to you in their progression? Are they progressing faster under this methodology?
Nick (57:37.18)
I lost you there for a second, Jeremy. So when I look at my students and they're progressing where?
Jeremy (57:43.598)
Just in the things that are are most important to you. Right. Every ever every instructor, you know, has a you know, they come in and they're like, okay, I'm I'm this is my curriculum, this is how we do it, this is my school. And I think almost everyone has a goal that their students get certain they reach certain milestones. There are certain things that they want them to learn, and there's usually an idea on on timing.
of that. And and I'm just curious what that path looks like in your school. And and you know what, here's a different way I can ask it.
Jeremy (58:30.833)
Do people learn the stuff?
Faster the way you do it.
Or does it take longer?
But maybe it's learned more competently.
Nick (58:49.11)
I think there's a balance to be had there. and it really just depends on the students because I take an individualized pr approach with my students. But that having been said, is you know, we when somebody asks us, we're not usually like, it's gonna take you exactly this long to achieve something because we don't we don't know, right? But we honestly we we know our averages. And so the average student with me could probably attain a
black belt in approximately three years. it seems a little short based on other people's training and and and timelines, but it's it's really based on their individual performance. So if I had somebody who was a transfer student like you came in, is I had one gentleman that came and trained with me who was a karate black belt, and he ended up basically going through our curriculum in about eight months.
And then he was he was a brown belt for a while before we tested him formally for for black belt, but I do that different as well. There's it's more of a rite of passage than an actual test. But he he knew most of the kata already. He had a firm understanding of of directions and elevation changes and how to do that. It was really just some of the grappling he kind of had to catch up on, but we roll enough that he was able to kind of push through the curriculum.
rather quickly. And since I don't set timelines for that stuff, as he was as he was ready, we did it. So
Jeremy (01:00:22.469)
And and I would argue that's how it should be. If someone comes in with extensive experience, your curriculum and the progression should reward, not punish that. And that's something that I think is missing in a lot of schools. You have to forget everything you know, regardless of where they stand in the rows, regardless of what belt is on them. A large portion of schools, in my experience, are throwing out.
Nick (01:00:24.84)
Yes.
Jeremy (01:00:52.773)
that prior knowledge, which I think is a disservice not only to that individual student, but to the school that they are now training in.
Nick (01:01:00.903)
Yes.
Jeremy (01:01:02.859)
you know a bunch of different stuff? Cool. You spar differently? Great. That's good for everybody. You move differently. We all get better because of that.
Nick (01:01:11.293)
I encourage that with my students, and but I know a lot of places do not. And it it comes back to
Nick (01:01:22.573)
A lot of the martial culture that we experience came from the Japanese. And I love Japan. Japanese culture is awesome. I know a lot of Japanese people and I love them to death. They're great people, but their culture is much more authoritarian. And so when you look at how we've structured martial arts, it's well, you have to train this long, and you can only promote the people up to the rank you're at. You know, we're always saying
Jeremy (01:01:37.755)
Yes.
Nick (01:01:50.765)
we want our students to be better than us, but then we arbitrarily cap them that they can't be. So I've I've fixed some of that too.
Jeremy (01:01:55.407)
Mm.
interesting observation. How so?
Nick (01:02:02.614)
my black belts don't wear stripes because stripes don't actually make you better.
Jeremy (01:02:09.329)
They don't? man.
Nick (01:02:10.381)
Man, I know, right? I've gone to kind of a modular system for my black belts. So I have a core curriculum that as they progress to black belt, they learn my core curriculum. The core curriculum is broad enough, it's for all different types of people, and it it should maintain that core curriculum. As they reach black belt, they don't wear stripes on their belt, but what we do instead of dan grades is we do module-based training.
the students have a lot of input on the modules that they do and how they want to do them. And as long as we can agree on a quantifiable metric for how they're going to be evaluated, I'll essentially let them do it. So they have my core and then their growth path. And I'm just there to facilitate. I'm just there to help. so as long, like I said, as long as we can agree on a way to
to have an evaluation criteria for them. So I mean if they're really into forms, they can go learn, you know, they can do modules on, they can do a module on Okinawan forms or a module on Korean forms or or whatever and learn more. They can go learn Tai Chi or how whatever that looks like to them. So I really kind of embraced with with the Japanese culture side is the Shuhari mechanism. So up to first on, they've they've mastered the fundamental curriculum. They know the core that I want them to have.
between, you know, two and four, they're doing modules and kind of taking it in a direction that they're interested in and making it more their own art. And by the time they're they've completed by the time they've completed four modules, which would essentially be the equivalent of a fourth on, is they've they've found ways to take my core and their interests and have their own thing.
Jeremy (01:04:03.505)
So you're not bringing up
A particular style of martial artist, you're bringing up martial artists.
Nick (01:04:09.538)
No. None of my students look exactly like me. And that's phenomenal.
Jeremy (01:04:13.703)
Hmm. That's great. That's really cool.
Jeremy (01:04:22.917)
I'm sure there are all kinds of people I mean may maybe maybe you're not super public online so people don't know, but I I imagine there are a lot of people that get all we get all bent out of shape about this. How dare you? How how dare you do this thing differently?
Nick (01:04:33.126)
Probably.
Nick (01:04:40.545)
Like I said earlier, it's there's almost like this guilt in this imposter syndrome with it. But there's a reason that it took me 40 plus years to kind of come forward with how I do things because of because of that. And it was, I've done it enough now that regardless of what other people think, it works. And maybe it wouldn't work for everybody, but it works for me and it works for my students. And that's really all I care about.
Nick (01:05:12.01)
But it's just, it's unique. And with the modular system, I noticed that that actually improved retention because they have their core, but they know once they get past their core, it's really kind of gonna become their thing. And they have a vested interest when they're participating in their module development. So it's like, where do where do we want this to go? depending on the modules, it might be, you know, if it's towards the beginning and we keep them a little shorter for them, it might be 12 months between like first and second on or second and third.
And then they can get longer and their research gets deeper and their training or external stimuli that that helps them develop whatever they're trying to do becomes greater. And and so there's this natural occurrence of of those timelines that where they they do take longer, but yet they know what it is and they help participate in the idea of what it was going to be. It wasn't just me saying, this is gonna take you three years and then you'll be this.
Jeremy (01:06:11.143)
It sounds like the emphasis is on the learning, the progresses.
Nick (01:06:14.12)
It is. It's it's a very student centric approach.
Nick (01:06:22.757)
But one of the ways that I did that and that I advanced my students through through that to get to their own piece is by when I removed the testing and the timelines and everything from the the color belt curriculum and just made sure that they knew the material is this one's gonna be interesting for you, is I don't have any strikes or blocks.
Jeremy (01:06:48.379)
Huh? What?
Nick (01:06:51.5)
Exactly. think about a think about a claw hammer and you've got a nail pounded halfway into a piece of wood. Right? You can either pound that nail in the rest of the way, or you can use the claw to remove it. You've got two functions with one tool. Blocking and striking is just a function of the technique. They're not separate techniques.
Nick (01:07:19.63)
So everything's conceptual. So I will teach closed hand and open hand, but I mean the difference between a hammer fist or a knife hand is still just striking between here and here. It's the same. Now, when I'm blocking, I mean blocking might be the the function, but I'm just striking their strike. It's all the same.
Jeremy (01:07:44.845)
Mm. Yep.
Nick (01:07:47.748)
So instead of trying to teach them f fifty five techniques, I mean, they really have like ten. I mean, I just pulled a r random arbitrary number out, but I mean it it's relatively low.
Jeremy (01:07:57.99)
I and I and I and I thought I thought we were going crazy with twenty five.
Nick (01:08:03.996)
Because what you have to look at is you're using that same technique because this and this are the same technique. So I don't have to have different names. It can be like open your hand, close your hand, and there's purposes behind that, but it it's one technique. And I'm either I'm either striking a person, I'm blocking, I'm carrying, I I can do all the things with one tool.
Jeremy (01:08:25.671)
What about what about stances? Do you have formal stances? Do you have structured stances?
Nick (01:08:27.828)
What about them? I I do, but only to the extent of training posture. And I make I make it very clear. probably for you and a lot of the listeners out there, they've probably seen Ian Abernathy's take on on stanzas and kata and the the golf kata, right? Have you seen that one?
Jeremy (01:08:52.953)
It's familiar, but I I maybe it pretend I haven't because I'm sure some of the audience hasn't.
Nick (01:08:55.42)
Okay. So he he talks he talks about the the application of having static or fixed stances and he demonstrates the starting position is him looking straight down with his feet shoulder width apart, his hands are cupped like they're holding the golf club, and that's his starting position. his first move is when he brings his arms back and so he's going he's on his backswing and he brings them back here and he pauses. So that's one.
Jeremy (01:09:03.623)
Mm-hmm.
Nick (01:09:23.624)
The second one is back down as he strikes the ball. Third one is watching where the ball goes and the follow through, and that's three, and then back to his ready position. So his his little golf kata is, you know, is like three or four techniques, right? and so we trained stances, but we train them in that concept that the stances are to create strength and the ability of muscle memory to be able to transition through a position.
They're not designed to just stand there and hold it all day. So that's why we still teach kata. We do the stances, we do some other things in that. We train some stances as fundamentals. But it the whole purpose is if you're watching an MMA fight, you'll constantly see people transitioning through moves where it looks like, they're in a front stance, they're in a cat stance, they're doing this, but they're moving from one point to another.
But what you've done by practicing those stances is you strengthen the muscles involved with those stances. So as I transition through, now I don't lose balance. I already know how my body should be positioned in time and space to hold that position so I don't get knocked over as easily. So they serve a purpose, but it's not it's not to be in the stance.
Jeremy (01:10:37.701)
sense. Right on. I think we're gonna have to have you b back on again. I think we I think we have to go deeper on this. So what I would ask of the audience is if you have specific and respectful questions that we we might unpack with Nick and maybe we'll find one or two others. Maybe we'll we'll make a round table out of it.
Nick (01:10:55.853)
They don't even have they don't even have to be that respectful. We can smash those two.
Jeremy (01:10:59.719)
Okay. All right. Well, I I I don't know if I want to open that door, because I know this audience and we have some contrarians out there that would simply ask disrespectful questions because we invited them. But there there's a there's a lot here and it's really interesting and and you know, y it's clear that you've spent a lot of time thinking about this. And as we've said from the beginning, the goal of this show is not to change your mind, it's to get you to think and
And I imagine that the things that you're talking about are making quite a few people out there think. And to the audience, if if you're considering what Nick's saying and coming away with, no, I still want to do it my the way I'm doing it, great. There's nothing wrong with that. But the important thing is that it passes the question. If you if you can't ask the question, you don't actually have an answer. You have faith or blind belief or
Nick (01:11:43.707)
Do it.
Jeremy (01:11:59.264)
Or something else, right? It's not an answer unless the question's been posed. So I hope that you all are willing to ask yourself some of these questions. Now, if you're a lower rank, don't go to your instructor and say, I don't think we should have stances anymore. Maybe you should this episode instead. That's a nicer way to do it. But even then, you know, just just do it respectfully because good conversation leads to improvement.
Just in the way that good sparring leads to improvement.
Nick (01:12:31.653)
It does.
Jeremy (01:12:35.087)
Nick, if people want to get a hold of you, where, where, how, how do they do that?
Nick (01:12:39.085)
I don't have a huge social media presence. I have an Instagram and a and a Facebook page, but those are pretty much just my personal pages to communicate with my family and such. I will entertain the idea of, you know, if somebody reaches out and wants to communicate, I'll I'm open, I'll communicate. However, that having been said, is if you send me unsolicited friend requests, I'll probably ignore them. Not because I don't like you, just because I don't I don't know you. so send me a message first.
And then but email is a great way if they if they want to talk through this, if they want to ask me questions, if they want to collaborate on ideas, on on anything, is Olympic Combat at gmail.com.
Jeremy (01:13:27.121)
Great. Fantastic. Thanks for being here. This has been a really good conversation and I do want to continue it.
But how do we wrap this? Let's call it chapter one. How do we close this piece now?
Nick (01:13:42.753)
How do you close this piece? Alright, can I go on can I go on my soapbox? Alright, I hate I hate the idea of bunkai. I hate the like I hate everything about it.
Jeremy (01:13:46.671)
You sure can.
Jeremy (01:13:51.237)
No. Just just just swinging. You're just tearing it all down. Okay.
Nick (01:13:57.043)
There it is. when you know you see people and they're, you know, they're a yellow belt or an orange belt and they're like, What's the boonkai? Like, guy, you're an orange belt. You don't even know what you don't know. Why are you asking to break down and analyze techniques? I feel like that was part of our microwave culture that we want everything we want it now, and we don't understand something. So we're like, hey, what is this? But if you have a good instructor,
And they're giving you applications for the things that you're doing. so what with the Oyo, is that the word? applications, and they're doing their their kudin, their their oral transmission or whatever, right? And they're teaching you, you're getting it. They did the bunkai or their instructor did the bunkai. You're receiving the benefits. Stop asking for bunkai because you don't even know what it means.
That's my rant. But other than that, no, I I enjoyed chatting with you today. I look forward to, you know, talking through this more. There's there's lots more things that we can discuss. this is just the tip of the iceberg as far as like some of the things that I've I've made changes on. But yeah, really enjoyed it and I hope everybody out there just keeps going and even if they don't want to do what I do.
Jeremy (01:14:55.707)
Okay.
Nick (01:15:20.559)
I hope it made them at least think.