Episode 1164 - Matt Barnes
In this episode Andrew chats with Kempo practitioner Matt Barnes about his journey through martial arts, mentorship as well as an online endeavor that he has been working on.
Matt Barnes - Episode 1164
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Matt Barnes shares his extensive journey through martial arts, beginning with his childhood interest in judo and evolving through various styles including Kempo and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. He discusses the importance of mentorship, the evolution of Kempo, and the impact of online resources on martial arts education. Matt also reflects on his experiences in competition and the growth of a community around sparring and training. He emphasizes the importance of teaching principles over techniques and how his philosophy has evolved over the years. He discusses the evolution of his teaching style, the significance of adaptation in martial arts, and the friendships formed through competition. The dialogue also touches on the creation of a technique archive, the challenges of handling criticism, and the personal growth that comes from a lifelong commitment to martial arts. Ultimately, Matt encourages listeners to train with passion and curiosity, fostering a deeper connection to their practice.
TAKEAWAYS
Matt's martial arts journey began with judo at a young age.
He transitioned through various martial arts styles, including Taekwondo and Kempo.
He has created online resources to share Kempo techniques and history.
Competing in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu has been a significant part of his journey.
Matt recently earned his black belt in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
He believes teaching principles is more important than just techniques.
His experiences in competition have shaped his understanding of martial arts.
Matt's philosophy focuses on the evolution of techniques and their application.
Understanding principles is more important than choreography.
Preserving martial arts heritage is crucial but should allow for adaptation.
Understanding the application of techniques enhances training.
Friendships formed through competition can last a lifetime.
Intergenerational connections enrich the martial arts experience.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
01:00 Matt's Martial Arts Journey Begins
02:12 Exploring Different Martial Arts Styles
08:30 Transitioning to Kempo and Finding a Mentor
13:30 The Evolution of Kempo and Online Resources
19:34 The Growth of a Community and Sparring Sessions
25:42 Competing in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
28:41 Teaching and Evolving Martial Arts Philosophy
29:41 Understanding Principles Over Choreography
31:05 Preserving Martial Arts Heritage
35:58 The Quest for Understanding and Application
37:27 Long-Term Commitment to Martial Arts
42:30 Friendships Forged Through Competition
46:30 The Challenge of Competition
47:12 Creating a Technique Archive
48:09 Handling Criticism and Variability
50:07 The Search for Truth in Techniques
52:33 Personal Growth Through Martial Arts
55:07 Final Thoughts on Training and Passion
To connect with Matt Barnes:
www.kempoinfo.com
Join our EXCLUSIVE newsletter to get notified of each episode as it comes out!
Subscribe — whistlekick Martial Arts Radio
After listening to the episode, it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
✅Subscribe to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio on the following platforms:
🎧Apple Podcasts: https://apple.co/3mVnZmf
🎧Spotify: https://spoti.fi/3yHVdHQ
✅You can find whistlekick on all social media platforms using the handle @whistlekick or visit our website at https://www.whistlekick.com or https://www.whistlekickmartialartsradio.com
Show Transcript
Andrew Adams (06:32.044)
Welcome. You're listening or watching, perhaps on YouTube, another episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. And today I'm joined by Matt Barnes. Matt, how are you today? X excellent. Absolutely. It's a wonderful day in the neighborhood. and and won't you be mine? But before we get into our chat, in case you're new here, welcome. Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio is
Matt Barnes (06:41.533)
I'm doing great. That's a good day in the neighborhood.
Andrew Adams (06:57.816)
produced over eleven hundred episodes at this point. And you can find all of that information for all of our episodes at Whistlekick MartialArts Radio dot com. You can go there to find show notes on every episode, photos, transcripts in case you want to search for something or contact information on the guests or how to find their Instagram. All that stuff you can find there at Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. You can also sign up for ex our exclusive newsletter there as well.
We're not going to send you a gazillion emails. We're going to send you two emails a week. That's it. And the only reason we send you two a week is we release an episode on Monday, you'll get an email. We release an episode on Thursday, you'll get an email. That way you won't miss any. And if you want to find out about all of the other things that we do, go to whistlekick.com and you can find out all of the stuff we do. Maybe you want to purchase some sparring gear, or maybe you want to purchase some apparel. Maybe you want to head to one of our events like Marshall Summit in November.
or some of our free training days that happen a around the country. All of that stuff you can find at whistlekick.com. Matt, it's a great day. We're here to talk about martial arts, which I'm I've been told that this is gonna be a long conversation. So I'm excited.
Matt Barnes (08:12.074)
Yeah, this one goes back
Forty years or something at this point. When I was a kid, you know, I was a kid, my little G.I. Joe, I wanted to get the judo uniform for him. You know, I was I was programmed from from the get go. when I was twelve. You know, my mom signed me up for judo. My little brother and I would just throw each other around the house. And unfortunately three months later the rec center where it was burned down and it, you know, it left, but the but I was hooked. You know.
Andrew Adams (08:18.477)
All right.
Andrew Adams (08:41.598)
my god.
Matt Barnes (08:44.768)
And it didn't really matter which martial art. a few years later I was in college, I met a guy in my dorm. He you know, he was on the the University of Connecticut Taekwondo Club. So we would just play around at that. We'd go to the gym and you know, punch and kick things. And both of us took a break part way through college, and during that time he signed up for Kempo and I I he said, You gotta come check this out. And so that
That began sort of the more regular journey. I was training with a guy named Scott Packard. It was a Fred Villari studio. We did the, you know, the number of combinations and all that stuff. And and so I started training with that up and went back to college, finished and after I moved after I got out of college, I moved to out to Cape Cod.
was a bowling alley, saw the ad on the piece of paper, you know, the bowl the scoring sheet, called the number, and got myself a you know in with Chris Hatch. He was my next instructor in Kempo. And we've been friends ever since. We still get together it is now, let's see.
Thirty years later, and like we still get together every Saturday morning to work out together.
Andrew Adams (10:08.3)
Wow, that's great.
Matt Barnes (10:09.522)
And we, you know, I trained up to Black Belt with him, got my, you know, first, second, third degree with him. And during that whole time we started looking around because we you know, there was there was some seminars to be had. And so we ended up, you know, I in the pre you know, the the pre early days of the internet with the Usenet user groups, I found somebody else on Cape Cod who did like Kali and
the sistema. And so, you know, we met up at a beach to to, you know, because again it was the early days of the internet. You don't go meet strangers on the internet, but we did and you know, tried out some of that. And there were small circle jujitsu seminars nearby. And and, you know, even the the Remy Precis Dilman you know the the big three seminars were going around we would we would hit those and we would and Chris would bring other people into his studio
And it was great, except for it eventually caught the attention of the higher-ups in his organization. He was in one of the Valari breakoffs. And they said, you gotta cut it out. basically, when you when we get to the instructor workouts, our stuff would be weird. Like we would be doing things in a different way, and it didn't match they wanted uniformity, and so they basically put an ultimatum to
Andrew Adams (11:23.51)
Mm.
Matt Barnes (11:37.954)
You gotta cut it out or you gotta, you know, leave the organization. And at that point we had just started really connecting with a a guy from Hawaii, Professor Kimo Ferreira. He just passed away a few years ago. but we had started to to train with him and this is two thousand one where we began this, and I met him through absolute luck.
There's a there's a guy, Joe Rubello, Campo Joe Rubello. You may have heard of him. He gets around. I reached out to him because I was really big into the Kempo history. And I'd called him up, heard his answering machine message back in the days of answering machines, and I thought this guy is crazy. Because it went on and on of all the arts that he offered. And I'm like, okay. But we met up and he was great. And
Andrew Adams (12:11.384)
Yep. He's been on the show. Yep.
Matt Barnes (12:35.905)
Just one day he was talking to Kimo Ferreira and he's like, I know this guy who really loves Campo history. And Kimo Ferrer was a historian. And he forgot to give he forgot to give me Kimo's number. So just one day my phone rang and it was him calling from Hawaii. And we talked for like an hour. And he would send me historical documents. He would send me, you know, videos of his classes in Hawaii.
Andrew Adams (12:52.482)
Wow. Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (13:03.637)
And so when he would come to the East Coast to do seminars, it was like the Grateful Dead. I would follow him around weekend to weekend. And actually, after probably after the first year, I was his driver. So he would I would just pick him up and we'd go to the next the next town, the next state. and then eventually he would just stay at my house. He would do his seminars during the summer when I had free time. He'd just stay at my house and we'd just go from place to place to place. And after the very first seminar with him,
I saw the compo he was doing and I I was like, that's what I want. I had been looking for all the things that I read about, you know, all the checks, all the, you know, all the little details and nuances that I didn't seem to see in my existing stuff and had been trying to put in myself was already in his material. And then I was in a system where
you had a gigantic amount of stuff to retain. You know, all the numbered Kempos, all all all the number combinations, the Kempos, the animal techniques, the weapons, the very, very, very large number of forms. And I went I began looking at a a curriculum that had eighteen techniques and you know, ten forms and you know and the rest of it was just context and and basics and you know
Andrew Adams (14:22.457)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (14:30.229)
all of the things that go around them that make them work. And so I could spend a lot more time working on how I did things than remembering the, you know, combination 83. And this is actually going to come around in the end and really bite me because that's a current project I'm working on. so I I said to Professor Kimo the first day I met him, like, I want to start over and learn your stuff.
Andrew Adams (14:41.585)
Sure, sure.
Matt Barnes (14:58.571)
I had taken a look at the fourth degree material that I was going to be learning in the other system and I was like, it doesn't really grab me. And so I jumped shipped and started from the beginning with his stuff and eventually got, you know, my last promotion from him was seventh degree black belt. I went through, learned everything, was there when he changed the system to learn the forms again, was there when he, you know, added things.
And eventually got to go to the gathering of e of eagles with him and just, you know, get beaten up by him all weekend. Yeah, he would he would blame anything on the jet lag.
So that became my next journey. And then throughout I was teaching for Chris and running a his Thursday night classes for the adults and and basically doing the color commentary. He was still teaching the old system and I was sort of filling in some other things that you know could how how you could use that material with more of the early Hawaiian influence because Kimo was he taught for Walter Godin in in the Palamas.
you know, in Hawaii. So he was, you know, two steps away from Professor Chow. You know, the big he's he's about as as OG as you can get in Kempo. so that was my my next sort of adventure. And throughout this I started doing a website, Kempoinfo.com, where I would put all my little essays of a historical timeline, you know, the history of Kempo, history
of martial arts in general, articles on how I thought you should do the forums, etc. And I started doing that. And then I was in Marshall Talk or one of the other, you know, chat boards for Kempo, and I decided I'm gonna do a technique archive for for Shawn Kempo. And this was twenty years ago as of I don't know, last May. And I was like, I'm gonna make one.
Matt Barnes (17:03.649)
And so I was hand HTML coding on my little, you know, free website that comes with your cable service, typing up all my notes, and I would have people send me their descriptions of what they had. And so it was basically just text documentation at first. And as I started to build it, somebody reached out, they had a whole arc video archive of their own and they were hosting it, so they they sort of contributed all of their videos to the website.
Andrew Adams (17:10.05)
Ha ha.
Matt Barnes (17:32.951)
And then people started coming out of the woodwork. And as of as of probably eight years ago, I had almost all of the material at least written out. So if somebody wanted to see it, they could go look at it, read through and see what it was like. Because in my early upbringing, the way the the way the material worked is you weren't allowed to see greenbelt material if you were not a you know, if that was not the next belt you were getting. You just
They had the videos for sale. You couldn't purchase the brown belt video if you were a yellow belt. You were not allowed. And I thought Exactly. That was and it drove me nuts. And I'm like, I'm gonna I'm gonna blow this thing wide open. You know, I was a lot younger than I was really the upstart. And I did get some pushback when I first started doing it. but now you can go on YouTube and there's there's material everywhere. So I haven't had to do everything. But
Andrew Adams (18:09.027)
Gotcha. So they they really gate kept the curriculum.
Matt Barnes (18:33.004)
The last 40 or so have been lingering for years. And I I finally decided, well, somebody's gotta do something about it. So I started getting together with Chris and we would reverse engineer the written descriptions that we had and started filming YouTube videos. And they're a minute long. We just go in, run through it slow, give you two angles of it, and put it up. And we've managed to do
probably thirty of the last you know, there's there's only a handful left we haven't done. Some because, you know, there's some pretty big throws in there and we're both old. And we're gonna figure out some young person who we can, you know, convince to be the okay for those ones. And you know, just some that we're just still figuring out the we have the written description, but we're parsing out what does this really mean. And so after all my complaints about too much material, I've actually gone back and relearned all of the ones up through ninth or tenth degree in in that system.
Just so I can put them out there. You know, I I I find it ironic that the guy who quit as a third degree is the one who's Yeah, I jumped shipped years ago, but I'm I I'm I keep saying it's a labor of love in the YouTube comments, but sometimes I think it's just spite. I'm just gonna do this and then I can get it off my you know, get it off my chest. And I've been getting a lot of great feedback off of that.
Andrew Adams (19:32.1)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (19:48.355)
Ha ha.
Matt Barnes (19:59.555)
You know, the most common the most common negative comment I get on them is they're all done off the one step the guy punches in and stands there while you demonstrate the technique. And you know, that's not how you if that's all you ever did, then yes, it would be very ineffective. But if you were trying to show somebody a technique so they can copy it, it's the easiest way for them to see it. I'm not I'm not putting out how to fight. I'm putting out how to do this technique. You know, what you do with it afterwards is up to you. and
Andrew Adams (20:24.685)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Matt Barnes (20:29.198)
You know, it's been fun and actually just churning these out. My YouTube my YouTube channel has gone bonkers. I think the analytics don't know because I was just using it to host the the videos in the archive. And, you know, there's a handful of people come in and especially the earlier material. If people want to practice, they'll go look at the video for it. But my my score my analytics scores went from like
400 views a month to 47,000 last week or whatever. And so the analytics numbers are hysterical. And I don't know what's gonna happen after I finish this project. You know, I I don't necessarily aspire to be a a a major YouTuber, but it's been re it's been kind of fun. And then in the midst of all this, I while I was teaching for Chris, we would have an after-hours class because one of
Andrew Adams (20:57.486)
Mm.
Ha ha.
Matt Barnes (21:22.87)
One of the folks who had gotten their black belt as a kid was was like, You know, I I have my black belt, but
Do I really know how to fight, how to defend myself? And so he wanted to come back, and we were just gonna pressure test things and just, you know, grab me, shove me against the wall, and I'm gonna try to do the defense. And is that gonna stop you or are you gonna, you know? And we went through and ran through a lot of things like that. And it was supposed to just be the two of us. And just like in the movie, the next week he's there and he's like, Okay, this guy, Eddie, wants to come, and he's a wrestler.
Andrew Adams (21:51.439)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (22:02.614)
And so on. And so by the time we done we were done, we had fourteen people at our super secret club. And it was fantastic because we had a boxer, we had a couple wrestlers, we had a Muay Thai guy, we had, you know, the Kenpo guys, and we had a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guy, and a couple, you know, just straight up MMA guys and and a police officer. And we would just get together and it's
Andrew Adams (22:09.295)
Wow. That's great.
Matt Barnes (22:31.842)
What do we want to do this week? And sometimes it was wrestling, sometimes it was tying it all together, sometimes we'd throw on some some MMA gloves and headgear and beat the daylights out of each other. And we did it for years and
No major injuries. Like we were we were astoundingly lucky. and then since we were doing that, Jason Delucia did like the hybrid fight league. So I tried that out, learned an important rest important lesson about, you know, groundwork and guillotines. I lost to a I got the takedown and that was about where it ended when I got guillotined right after because my opponent knew what he was doing.
Andrew Adams (23:06.703)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (23:16.544)
And so with that, I just I started to study Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. So at first it was just at a a summer at a time. I there was a I was driving by, there was a school having a grand opening, I popped in, saw an old friend that I used to work with. So I didn't have a lot of time during the school year, so I just threw down a check for a couple months in the summer and loved it.
You know, had had a blast. Did that for a couple summers, and then they moved to a much nicer, really elegant, more expensive location and became very professional and had contracts with debit cards and and I couldn't really work in that model at the time. so so that kind of put it off for just a moment, but then another friend of mine, the one who I saw at the grand opening.
had been cross-training and said, you gotta come see this guy, Mike DeLuca. You know, he's a absolute technician. And so we would carpool and we actually drove an hour to go see this guy each way. And so I started training there. And
I could only go once a week because it again it you know it's a couple hour class, but with the commuting time it's a it's a five hour commitment to a night of training. So I would go there, but my friend started up a jujitsu club locally and so I could train and then I would host it because I started teaching in twenty fifteen at my own place at the Rec Center and I was letting the jujitsu guy use my mats, so I would train with him.
Andrew Adams (24:45.72)
Yeah, that's a lot.
Matt Barnes (25:05.923)
Friday, Saturday, go Wednesday to Mike's, and then eventually around twenty twenty, I got my own place, a little garage-band industrial park, very humble, no parking, hard to find, but it's just my own little spot where my friends and I can get together and train. And so I started teaching the the Kempo two nights a week and then Saturday mornings, and then after that I would just host the grappling. So
when all was said and done, it eventually became I could go Tuesday at my place, Wednesday at Mike's, Thursday at my place, Friday at my friends, Saturday at my friends. So for a while it was five nights in the in the ghee. And that was that was really bringing me along. so I did eventually get, you know, blue belt, competed at Blue Belt, you know, the local Naga tournament. And at my age it was pretty funny. You I signed up and I, you know, got myself in shape.
got yeah, got into a nice decent weight class and I signed up and absolutely nobody else my age was anywhere near me. So so I'm a I'm like thinking it it's doomed, but then they moved me to the next age class down and the next weight class up. And there were some people there.
Andrew Adams (26:13.711)
that's the worst.
Matt Barnes (26:34.223)
And then shortly before the tournament, somebody my age, one weight class down, signed up. And I'm like, all right. They did it as a, you know, so I I have some matches, and I'm driving over, I'm car pulling over to the tournament, and I get a phone call, and it's the guy's running the tournament, and they're like, We got this guy, and we can't find him a match. They're like,
He's three way classes up, but he but he's eight years older than you. So we figure that makes it even.
Andrew Adams (27:05.548)
Whoa.
Andrew Adams (27:11.341)
Okay.
Matt Barnes (27:13.453)
And I'm like, I'll I'll run it by my instructor, you know. So I got there and so I'm right, I'm I'm in three different weight classes, two different age groups, and they're like, don't worry, we're gonna try to spread your matches out over the day and you know keep them close together. And I weighed in, so I'm I'm in my weight class all by myself, and they start calling it.
And the first the first division, you know, I had two matches, lost them both to takedowns. They got they got the takedown and so I lost two nothing. Both matches. They never got any further than that. I'm like, all right, they were bigger and younger. I'll take it. It's the the bronze medal in a three man division. You know, we did it round robin. I'm like, that's okay. It's a good way to
Andrew Adams (28:07.192)
Now how how old now how old were you at this point?
Matt Barnes (28:09.968)
I was just about turn forty-nine. So the other guy, yeah, the other guy was like fifty six or something. So so I was in the 30-year-old division. So then I'm like, okay, I can I can get a breather after those matches. They call the next division, it's mine. Like I am just out of one ring into another. Second guy,
Andrew Adams (28:13.082)
Okay, yeah.
Matt Barnes (28:38.446)
Also gets the takedown, note to self, had to work on takedowns. but thankfully I was able to get a sweep and just run the numbers up and won that one on points. I'm like, all right, my day's getting better.
And then we get to the last match, and my my coach is like, you don't have to do this. But he's like, but I've also never seen somebody get better as the tournament went on. You know, like I was I was getting I was getting a feel for it. I'm like, what the heck? It's a free match. You know? And turns out this guy was a retired Marine, just wanted to stay in shape. That's how he got into it. And so we had the match. I finally get the takedown.
And I'm determined to keep it there because I do not want to have to stand back up against with this guy. And so I just again try to try to keep get some points on the board. And because I don't want to like
get too excited and jump from positions. I'm counting in my head to four because you're supposed to hold the position to for three seconds to get the points. So I'm like in my head, literally counting to make sure I don't I felt like I was gonna just, you know, move through positions and not get any points. And I'm I'm like, I gotta get something in the bank. And actually managed to take his back and get my submission
Andrew Adams (29:50.095)
Wow.
Matt Barnes (30:08.174)
And cause once I was on the back, I'm like, we I'm never leaving this place. Like I I did not want to have to stand back up against this guy. And so I actually did manage to pull off a submission. And so for a first tournament experience, I was pretty happy. and the the you know, my opponent was super cool and you know and I said, Look, sort of in a in a
Andrew Adams (30:11.386)
Yeah.
Matt Barnes (30:35.332)
Foreshadowing, you I said if I'm still doing this in in seven years, I feel like I'm gonna feel pretty good about myself. You know, because this guy was competing. And so over the course of the day, the the school I go to is really small. Like last night we had eight people on the mats, and that was slightly more than average. You know, probably probably 700 square feet, you know, not just really small, but we had
probably four or five people at the tournament, we ended up coming in second for the teams because I ended up with three medals. Most of the guys ended up with at least two. and so we we tr our our pr medals per participant was really high. You know, and so we really felt like it was a good day for everybody. and it was fun to compete because I probably hadn't competed since two thousand two in in anything. So
So it's kind of fun to get back in there. and I stuck with it and as of two Saturdays ago got my black belt.
Andrew Adams (31:42.042)
Hmm. Your your black belt in your black belt in what? In PJ J. Okay, yeah.
Matt Barnes (31:43.482)
One of one of many Brazilian jujitsu. Yeah, so so Yep. Yeah. So this was yeah, that's the when I when I put the Facebook post up I I had to clarify for some of the people who were like, I thought you said you got it in nineteen ninety seven. To clarify, yeah. So the 'cause I feel like this seems to be a common theme 'cause I know I know a few guys who've done this where they they do, you know, Kempo for a while and then
Andrew Adams (32:01.37)
Ha ha ha.
Matt Barnes (32:12.613)
They hop in and so there's there's at least three of us I know of that have, you know, also taken the second round through BJJ into a a black belt. And it's been great. You know, it's it's rough sometimes, you know. And I had a you know, you get those nagging injuries and you know, my coach says it's because I forget that I'm not twenty five and try to hang with the you know, the twenty five year old who just got back from pans. And
I'm learning that lesson slowly. But it's it's yeah, it's been good for me. And it's incredible that like that art compared to a lot of others, and I I don't wanna say and I you know, I've been you know, started teaching it it's easier to teach than some other arts because you can actually do it. You know, some of the other stuff, like striking
Andrew Adams (33:05.775)
Mm.
Matt Barnes (33:12.025)
It's hard to to practice that with good fidelity and not, you know, well being mindful of, you know, head contact injuries, you know, CTE and things like that. You don't wanna so it's really hard to do striking at that level of effort, whereas BJJ, it's you you have the luxury of like you can just go for it and go really hard. And and you can try your moves and you can know you can do it. Like you can say, I know how to do
whatever move. But if you can do that move to someone who doesn't want you to do that move, you can say I can do that move. Yeah. You know, that's that's my gold standard for can I do it? Well, can I do it to someone who doesn't want me to? And then I can feel confident about that particular, you know, that move. And you know, it's great because it's also informed my Kempo. You know, I was practicing weapon disarms with Chris and and
Andrew Adams (33:49.338)
Sure. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (33:54.8)
Mm.
Matt Barnes (34:11.087)
when I would get a hold and you know secure the weapon arm, you know, it was very different from how I used to do it. And he, you know, he's like, Wow, you know, this is much more secure than you used to do it. And I'm just applying the ideas from somewhere else. And that's that's what I'm really shooting for. I'm I'm, you know, having gotten out of the the many, many, many technique world into the principles world. And that's where I want to live, you know, sort of my martial arts stuff.
And when I teach, I'm teaching, you know, Kempo, but I'm teaching it with, you know, not just do this, but here's this, and here's how we're doing it, and here's why we're doing it, because it's gonna make this happen. And the techniques are just examples like a math book. You know, they're not the they're not the only math problems, they're just the one where you can demonstrate what it is you're trying to get across. And historically, I think that's for me a more accurate Kempo. Like I know.
Andrew Adams (35:03.93)
Sure. Yeah.
Matt Barnes (35:10.981)
There there's, you know, a history of Kempo. But the more I I learned about the early days, I felt like the students were reproducing things as if they were meant to be like a forever technique. Like this is exactly the way things should go. But the descriptions were Professor Chow would show them something and they're like and you'd never see that technique again. So you had to make sure that you wrote it down.
And he'd show us another one that was kind of like it. And I think and I'm thinking like what he was doing is showing you an example of a principle, and it came out different the next time because something was slightly different in the attack or or in his mood that day or whatever. But it wasn't supposed to be replicate this particular choreography. It was supposed to be understand this idea. Yeah. And I so I feel like I can I can make that work in my personal little world.
Andrew Adams (36:00.657)
Mm.
Or the principal, yeah.
Matt Barnes (36:10.961)
Because Professor Kimo when he passed, you know, there's a few schools teaching his stuff. It's not like I'm gonna there's a council I'm answering to, you know, if I can get myself to Hawaii, I can hang out with some of the guys there. But the organization doesn't really exist. So it's I'm I'm just my own little my own little garage. And so I can I can teach it however I like.
You know, I'm not I'm not really beholden to, you know, the central office. And you know, I'm not gonna invent it, you know, I'm not inventing a new martial art, but I'm gonna I'm gonna tweak it and and I did when I was at the gathering of eagles with them, I did have that conversation. 'Cause it's one of those things where
You know, I I never knew how many, you know, how many more trips he would have out to the East Coast 'cause it's a it's a rough journey and you know, he he was high mileage. you know, he had served in Vietnam, he was on disability from the army, you know, the they were you know, I I knew that the time was finite, and so I said, All right, plane goes down on your way back to Hawaii, what am I supposed to do?
Do I preserve your system in amber, like another Kempo guy that I'd seen? Where for me, I would I thought it was great that he only taught exactly what his father taught him, the way his father taught him. Historically speaking, I found that incredibly useful. But the deal was that's all you could ever do if you trained with him. And I was like, well, I don't want that, but I do love the fact that I got to see what it used to look like.
Andrew Adams (37:45.296)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (37:54.308)
Sure. G it gives you a frame of reference for the beginning.
Matt Barnes (37:57.735)
Absolutely. So that was great, but Kemo said if you find something better, do that. You know, if there's a technique that isn't working right and you find out how to make it work better, do that. So I'm like, all right. So I just I wanted to get his take on it because it was his thing. You know, I'm not saying I'm the you know, the highest authority on on, you know, Kem Kampojutsu from Hawaii, but
I'm the highest authority in my garage.
Andrew Adams (38:29.733)
Well, that's very true. One would hope anyway.
Matt Barnes (38:32.626)
Yeah, mostly. Mostly.
Andrew Adams (38:35.291)
So I I wanna go I wanna go back for a second. You mentioned that when you so you started training with Chris and he had been a part of an organization and you two sounds like together mutually decided we're gonna start learning these other things. And you mentioned that the higher ups in the organization that Chris was in had an issue with that, which I'm sure everybody listening or watching, if you're on YouTube,
Matt Barnes (38:42.63)
Yeah.
Matt Barnes (38:51.889)
Yeah.
Matt Barnes (38:57.873)
Yes.
Andrew Adams (39:04.401)
I'm sure everybody that's hearing this can recognize, yep, I've seen that, I've heard it before. It's a very common story. But what I'm interested in is if you have grown up in that type of a school, usually you are not even interested in training in other places. What was it for you and and Chris? And and maybe you can't answer this because obviously you're not Chris, but
If you if you had grown go grown up, for lack of a better word, in that type of system, what made you even think to I want to see what else is out there?
Matt Barnes (39:44.445)
For me, is that I I was curious about all everything, all of them. Like I saw a thing, you you read Black Belt magazine, inside Kung Fu Magazine, whatever. You see a thing and you're like, Bondo, yes, I'd love to see it. I wanna try it out. Like I I maybe I was the bad influence on Chris, but but I think sometimes we were also looking for inspiration. He'd been doing that particular system for a long time. And sometimes, you know, I don't want to say burnout, but you you know, you get
Andrew Adams (40:03.952)
Yeah.
Matt Barnes (40:14.096)
you're in your zone and you're like, is this is this all there is? But I think, you know, I might have been a bad influence and and said, Hey, I I saw this thing and these guys are coming to town. Do you want to go check it out? and so, you know, we would go together. We'd do little road trips and and go see whatever it was. And I was more active on the internet, so I was reaching out to other people and
So I think I might have dragged us into that mess.
Andrew Adams (40:46.448)
Gotcha. So you're the reason. You're you're the bad
Matt Barnes (40:48.914)
Yeah, it's probably my it's probably my fault. but what would happen was we would go back to the instructor workouts and
we would we would do a technique and the other black belts would go, where'd you get that? And I think that's the trouble we were causing. Yeah. I was also really into the understanding why the like the bunk eye of the forms, the applications, that really wasn't a big thing in the in the nineties in Kenpo. It was just do it because this is your form for this belt. And I really, you know, big reader, I would always be reading something about some martial art.
Andrew Adams (41:06.436)
Hmm. God.
Matt Barnes (41:30.202)
And I'd be reading about Bunkeye and and the application and what and I would ask questions about it. And a lot of times folks didn't know. And so that was the other thing. We'd get up to the instructor workouts, we'd be doing some sort of Okinawan comma form. And I would be discussing applications of it, and the other people were just like, How much do you think about this? Like I think about it all the time.
Andrew Adams (41:38.596)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (41:54.756)
Ha ha ha.
Matt Barnes (41:58.535)
All they wanted to do was do it right. And I'm like, but I want to know why I'm doing this. And that was and so that was I think some of the motivation to going to some of these seminars was to get sort of
What a you know, we've imported this form from a system. Why don't I go see it in its natural environment? You know, and things like that, and maybe that guy can explain to me why I'm doing this. And so I I just kept wanting to understand what I was doing. And and it was just fun. You know, that's that's the that's the most important part that you know, that's why I'm still doing this. You know, I s the judo was nineteen eighty two, the
You Kempo started in nineteen ninety. I'm still doing this. You know, the jiu-jitsu it's eleven and a half years at their current place and probably a handful of years before then.
Andrew Adams (42:55.663)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (42:58.162)
So, you know, if it wasn't fun, I wouldn't see still be doing it. And and you know, I love learning about lots of things, but especially about martial arts and knowing you know, why I'm doing what I'm doing. How can I do this better? Is there a more efficient way to do this where I can replace something I'm doing with something more efficient? And can I do this will memorizing fewer things? You know, can I learn
more principles so I can just execute a principle and not have to remember another technique. There was a while where where when I was doing a lot of the knife work, we were doing some of the Hamak Kali with Tom Sotis back in the 90s. and you know I started working on boxing southpaw so I wouldn't have to have two stances while I was doing knife work. You know, because knife work would be opposite. So I'm like, let's see if I can cut out one stance.
Andrew Adams (43:56.974)
Nice.
Matt Barnes (43:57.852)
And so just sort of doing that and then and when the wrestler showed up with the right foot forward, I was like, yes. so didn't have to remember that either. So and it that was actually easy for me because I'm sort of the opposite of ambidextrous. When I grew up, I was generally lousy with both hands. Yeah, they like to the point where like handwriting tutor, so I could write legibly. Like it was it was pretty rough.
Andrew Adams (44:04.379)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (44:15.867)
Hmm.
Andrew Adams (44:19.472)
that's funny.
Andrew Adams (44:26.928)
Mm.
Matt Barnes (44:28.571)
It ended up coming in handy because after I got to learn a skill, I had to really apply myself and think my way through it. So again, that's why I would tend to understand it really well, because I had it I couldn't just wing it. and that that was a thing where, you know, playing the ultimate long game, after I got out of my undergrad, I went back to school ten years later for phys ed.
thinking, wouldn't that be a cool thing to know if you're a martial arts instructor, get, you know, go to grad school for phys ed so I can really know my nuts and bolts. And in one of the classes, they they had us throw with our offhand to see how the uncoordinated kid would feel. And I'm like, I got that. And so I was the only one who could do a relatively coherent left-handed throw as a nominally right-handed person because again, I had grown up equally bad so
Andrew Adams (45:15.654)
Ha ha.
Matt Barnes (45:27.099)
I can I can putt right or left. I can you know so I've sort of grown into sort of a more pseudo ambidextrous person because of my lousiness at doing things. Yeah. So the martial arts did help dramatically with that. and so yes, this was the the complete long game. The the phys ed thing I never well, I've taught Phys Ed for one year. There was, you know
Andrew Adams (45:34.307)
Interesting. Wow.
Matt Barnes (45:52.93)
just one section. They were short. I was actually teaching something else at the time. I was teaching math and science or math and yeah, I was teaching instructional technology or something like that. But they they were short and they couldn't believe they had a certified phys ed teacher lingering somewhere in the building.
Andrew Adams (45:57.542)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (46:08.731)
Wow, that's funny. So you got hired to work in a school, but not even doing phys ed. That's funny.
Matt Barnes (46:12.837)
No, I I was I was working at a school tutoring math and English and the principal said, There's gotta be a math and science opening next year. You know it'd be really a good idea? Getting certified in that. And so I ran out, got certified in math and science and and this was
two thousand eight and and it was right after I'd finished my phys ed program. Hadn't gone to the ceremony where you get your little certificate. So we're there and the professor's like, anybody find a job yet? I'm like, well, kinda.
'Cause I had gotten the math and science job. So did that for a while, segregated into engineering, and but over the course I've taught all sorts of stuff, including one section of phys ed. so that's you know but it when I first went in for phys ed, it was because I was volunteering at the local high school. I didn't work there. but the phys ed teacher was bringing in people from the community who did phys ed kind of things.
Andrew Adams (47:00.817)
Mm. That's funny.
Matt Barnes (47:18.129)
And so she would have me come in and I did a, you know, a bar robe dance thing, a Tai Chi thing, and you know, some other martial arts thing. And I was like, wow, this is really fun working with these kids. And so I thought it was the phys ed, but it was the kids.
Andrew Adams (47:33.807)
Yeah. Yep. I can relate for sure.
Matt Barnes (47:36.231)
Yeah, so so the going to school for Fiz Edward's great and all, but you know it's it's it's not it's not the content. It's the it's it's the people. And yeah, so that was great and so it's been yeah, seventeen, eighteen years now. Still going, still fun.
Andrew Adams (47:54.064)
Mm-hmm.
Love it. All right. Let me let's go back as well. So you talked about that the first tournament you maybe it wasn't your first, but the competition you went to where you had to change weight classes and you had the last minute you had this this another older gentleman, eight years older than you. I'm curious because I've heard it said by many other people that that type of like one of the best ways to become friends with somebody is to punch and kick each other in the face. So did you
Matt Barnes (48:06.995)
Yeah.
Matt Barnes (48:22.794)
yeah. Then
Andrew Adams (48:25.275)
Do you remember who this person was? Was they someone that you stayed became friends with and you stayed connected to?
Matt Barnes (48:30.61)
No, that that particular one I didn't stay connected to. you know, that whole day was kind of a blur. But I do have but I do have people that from tournaments and things like that, that I have stayed connected to. Right I believe it was right before my black belt test. Might have been right after I I f was in a division with a guy Marlon Wilson. And
Andrew Adams (48:38.393)
Yep, understandably so.
Matt Barnes (49:00.488)
We met at the tournament and you know, in the same division, punch each other and then have a nice chat afterwards. And then as luck would have it, when you do your showdown in in that Kempo system, they purposely mix and match you with someone who's not geographically nearby, so you don't end up paired with a friend and
I got paired with Marlon, the same guy I just met at the tournament. So we're so we spend the day beating the daylights out of each other. And he's like, hey, if you're ever in Canada, look me up. And my wife had applied for a grant to go to a conference in Montreal. I was like, see you in six weeks. So went up, met up with him. We've been friends ever since. he's, you know, we've been like probably tested in the last twenty four hours.
Andrew Adams (49:25.211)
funny. Okay.
Andrew Adams (49:40.367)
Wow, that's great.
Andrew Adams (49:51.695)
Wow. Okay.
Matt Barnes (49:52.265)
And this is this is from nineteen ninety seven. So yeah, we we w most of yeah, a lot or not most of but a lot of my really close friends are martial arts guys. They're the they're all the ones that we sit and and beat on each other at at various events.
Andrew Adams (49:54.513)
Mm, yeah.
Andrew Adams (50:07.762)
Yeah. I th I think everybody listening or watching can definitely relate.
Matt Barnes (50:10.61)
And yeah, and these friendships go back thirty thirty-five years in some cases. Yes, and and they're yeah, they're they're guys that I I stay in touch with regularly and look forward to seeing. Yeah, so that's that's been a recurring theme in this.
The the guy who I did the the after hours fight group with, I'll probably be seeing him later tonight for grappling with his son who's now old enough to join us, you know. And so it's it's become intergenerational. There's a kid I work with. His father was his grandfather was on my black belt test as, you know, classmate. I taught his daughter karate and now I'm teaching his grandson grappling.
So it's yeah, we've we've gone intergenerational.
Andrew Adams (51:01.478)
Wow. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (51:06.194)
Yeah, and and I the the friends thing I've heard quite a bit. I I I have a friend of mine who actually a a much older gentleman got into a a Naga competition. and it's similar story, didn't have anybody's weight class, and then somebody last minute kind of was able to do it. and he ended up losing the fight, but he became really good friends with the person that he fought. And and it happens a lot. That's why I asked.
Matt Barnes (51:31.89)
Yeah. Yeah, th that particular tournament I was just one thing to the next to the next, absolute blur. And so yeah, that one I did not get to you know, we we we chatted afterwards, but yeah, we didn't we we didn't really connect that thoroughly. but yeah, other tournaments before that definitely those things have happened. Yeah. It's it's funny. The the
Andrew Adams (51:55.12)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (52:01.225)
The competition aspect, you know doing that, you know, shortly before I turned fifty was kind of a weird time to pick to do it, but I'd had my blue belt for a bit, thought it was worth a while, you know. See if the see if those guys see if those kids at the gym were just being nice to me. You know, get some perfect strangers to to try out on. And you know, it was a really positive experience and you know
Andrew Adams (52:20.102)
Ha ha.
Andrew Adams (52:24.028)
Sure.
Matt Barnes (52:30.854)
At some point I'll probably do it again. But you know, it's hard it's hard to find the moment when you're you know when you're my age.
Andrew Adams (52:41.776)
Yeah, yeah. I d I I can I can relate. I'm not there yet, but I'm getting there.
Matt Barnes (52:45.854)
Yeah. So at this point I'm still working on the on the technique archive. Like that's my that's getting getting my you know, getting my hours in on the mat and getting the technique archive done is really what I'm I'm focused on lately. And it's just a matter of finding the moment to record more material, figure out what else is missing, and but yeah, it's it's become huge. It
Andrew Adams (53:12.144)
Mm. And and say again where that is. I just in case people are are listening and and they're they want to go check it out, where can they find that?
Matt Barnes (53:17.928)
Yeah. So that's KempoInfo dot com, K E P O Info dot com. It's hundreds of pages of content and it's the forms, the weapon defenses, the animal techniques, the numbered combinations, various Kempos from different organization, the Kempo team techniques, people send them in. yeah, more than
Andrew Adams (53:29.138)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (53:46.568)
More than I think one person could remember.
Andrew Adams (53:48.98)
Well, and it's great that you have it there as a resource. Now, I'm I'm curious, how do you handle and maybe this has never happened? I would be surprised if it had never happened, but when you inevitably get someone contacting you saying you did it wrong, you number forty five isn't done that way, number forty five should be done this way.
Matt Barnes (54:09.607)
Okay. There's a couple of different instances of that that I've had because I've had different people send in descriptions for the same number technique that are wildly different. Most of the time they're even and I try to get like rank them by provenance, where like I had one where a high-ranking, you know, black belt, one of the big wigs in the organization, directly taught it to me. I'm like, all right, I am confident in this one. Whereas
Andrew Adams (54:13.395)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (54:38.217)
Or if I'll get three people send in a description and they mostly match, I'm like, all right, then that's gotta be it. But there's some that are incredibly different, and I and I have high-ranking instructors both saying, yep, that's how I have it, and they're saying with the other one, yep, that's how I have it. And at the top end, I have a feeling that in some cases people, you know, that system is split so many times. Somebody might have left before they had a number and they filled in a blank.
Andrew Adams (55:05.746)
Mm. Sure.
Matt Barnes (55:07.257)
Or I have instances where some of the really high-ranking people are like, yeah, he kinda had a I brain fart that day and taught this one as ninety-five, but it's really ninety-six. And so we try and triangulate on where how most people have it. But my my stock my stock answer is if I'm doing it wrong, there's an easy fix. Send me the video of how it's done right. I don't have to be the one in the video. You know, I
Andrew Adams (55:18.683)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (55:32.435)
Mm-hmm.
Matt Barnes (55:36.992)
I mostly tried to have other people be in the video and since these last ones were just lingering for years, I'm like somebody's gotta do it. So I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. And it's that first rule of the internet. If you want the answer to something, you put your answer out there and somebody will come along to tell you how you're wrong and give you the answer. That's what I was hoping for. So I this was to some degree looking for that. Like I I put it out there with the with the idea that somebody's gonna come and tell me I'm wrong.
Andrew Adams (55:55.163)
Absolutely. Yep.
Matt Barnes (56:07.279)
And I've had a few of those, but again, some of the people s have said, but actually that's how I have it. So I feel like the end of the story, my initial goal was to get all of these locked down, absolute truth. This is what it is. And I think what's gonna happen is we're gonna find out that there is none. There is no truth. There is a you know, there's a general collection that everyone agrees on, and we're just gonna have to
say that you're gonna have to pick the one that really speaks to you on this number because we've got three reputable people saying three different things. Obviously, you know, there is no there is no direct answer to this. So but I'm gonna try to get to the point where we get it as locked down as we can and people can have access to it. Because part of it is I wanted people to see it and go, I don't like that. You know, maybe they they look at it and go, well I don't want to spend
30 years chasing seventh degree black belt to get that. Or maybe they can say, I've been looking for this, and thank goodness I, you know, I can finally complete the 60s through 70s or whatever it is. So how people use it, I'm not I don't have that strong of an opinion on. I just wanted to like put the light of day on it to sort of break down the gatekeeping model. And what is sort of this unlikely confessional, I'm unlikely.
Andrew Adams (57:10.333)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (57:28.413)
Mm.
Matt Barnes (57:35.425)
To do most of those techniques after I've done the video. I've learned them, I put them out there, and a lot of them are repeats of other concepts that people have already learned. There are combinations that you get at secondary black belt that are essentially the same as stuff you get at Yellow Belt. You just do it from the other side of the punch. You know? So, like there's a lot of repeats, there's ones that are just like
an early technique but with a slightly different ending. Like, do we need three of these? So I know it it breaks up the the cool 108 number because that's the that's the number of techniques they have in their numbered combinations. But yeah so I I I'm not going to necessarily continue to practice one through a hundred and eight just for the sake of it. That's that's what I left a while ago. And you know
I don't know if a lot of my Shall and Kempo friends know that. Like I this you know, I'm I'm doing this for them. You know. I I'm not necessarily doing this for me. I've learned I've picked up a couple of neat ideas from it. I mean it has not been, you know, fruitless. I I've picked up some cool ideas. There's been things things that have been variations. you know, got me back into doing the old fireman's carry throw. You know, they're
Andrew Adams (59:02.834)
Yeah.
Matt Barnes (59:02.902)
It's it's brought out some stuff, but yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna go back to my compact little system and focus on my principles.
Andrew Adams (59:11.027)
I love it. Love it. This has been amazing. And and I certainly hope that people listening were watching. And if you are watching on YouTube, I encourage you to please click that like and subscribe button, hit the notification bell. It really helps a lot. and you know what? Even if you're listening to this, maybe you're driving in your car, first off, don't do this while driving. Stop, pull over, go to YouTube, click those buttons and help us out. It costs you nothing and it really helps us out. So I appreciate that.
Matt, if people wanna reach out to you, like they they they're gonna hopefully they're gonna check out Kempoinfo.com and that's with an as in Mary. Yep. Yep. I'm gonna put it in the show notes so that people can can find it easily. hopefully they're gonna go, they're gonna check your stuff out. that'd be really cool. But I'm assuming there they can find a place to reach out to you.
Matt Barnes (59:49.206)
That is with the that is with the Yeah, we're we're we're that kind of spelling.
Matt Barnes (59:57.248)
Okay. Yeah.
Matt Barnes (01:00:04.17)
They can and actually my my email address there is Matt at Kempoinfo Info dot com. So but yeah, there's there there's a contact me button. if they wanna just cut to the chase and see it all the technique videos, the at Kempo Info on YouTube. And that way if they don't wanna read all my rantings, they can just watch the videos.
Andrew Adams (01:00:09.681)
there you go.
Andrew Adams (01:00:19.528)
Perfect, perfect.
Andrew Adams (01:00:24.628)
Perfect. Awesome. you know, I'm gonna throw it to you here in a second to to close us out. But if you're are new to the show and you made it all the way to the end, congratulations! Yay, you made it. You got to the end. thank you so much for being here and enjoying this this conversation with with Matt and I. check out Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio for all of the other episodes that you can check out there. You can also go to whistlekick.com to find out about all of the other things that we do, because we do a lot more than just this podcast. We have
training programs you can buy, you can purchase books, attend one of our events, all of that stuff you can find at whistlekick.com. Matt, how do you want to close us out today? What what do you want your final words to the audience to be today?
Matt Barnes (01:01:07.648)
Well, as you train, train because you love it. And you know, I've been going this far and it's not even discipline, it's just habit at this point. I just show up because it's Wednesday. And you know, yeah, and understand what you're doing. It makes it so much cooler. So that's that's what got the Kempoinfo.com going. you know, I wanted to know more and then I wanted to share with other people so they could know more. And yeah.
Keep training, stay on the mats, keep moving.