Today, Jeremy and Andrew talk about some of the reasons why martial artists argue about “real” fighting.
Why Martial Artists Argue About “Real” Fighting - Episode 1179
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, hosts Jeremy and Andrew delve into the contentious topic of what constitutes a 'real fight' in martial arts. They explore definitions, the differences between sport fighting and real fighting, the nature of violence, and the impact of anecdotal evidence on martial arts discussions. The conversation emphasizes the importance of nuance and understanding the various contexts in which fighting occurs, while also addressing the personal stakes that often arise in martial arts arguments. Ultimately, they encourage listeners to focus on training rather than engaging in fruitless online debates.
TAKEAWAYS
A real fight is a violent hand-to-hand altercation initiated by one person.
Sport fighting has rules and mutual consent, making it different from real fighting.
The risk of injury is greater in MMA than in point sparring.
Arguments about fighting often become personal and tribal.
Nuance is often lost in martial arts discussions.
Conditioning is crucial for effectiveness in real fights.
Different types of confrontations require different approaches.
Anecdotes can skew perceptions of martial arts effectiveness.
Most martial artists will never be in a real fight.
Training should take precedence over online arguments.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction to Real Fighting
02:24 Defining Real Fighting
06:34 Sport Fighting vs. Real Fighting
09:10 The Nature of Violence
12:11 Anecdotes and Their Impact
17:29 Nuance in Martial Arts Arguments
21:43 Different Types of Confrontations
26:43 Personal Stakes in Martial Arts Arguments
28:12 Conclusion and Call to Action
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy (00:38.958)
Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, the world's number one traditional martial arts podcast. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, host founder, and that's Andrew. And Andrew's awesome. And Andrew's shirt has an acronym, Andrew is wonderful.
Andrew Adams (00:49.097)
Andrew Adams.
Andrew Adams (00:59.427)
Andrew is wonderful. Yep, sure. I like it.
Jeremy (01:02.594)
Yep. It's it's a Easter egg from that. It's the whole time.
Andrew Adams (01:06.105)
Or it could be could be Andrew is weird, which by the way, if you're watching on YouTube, the ASL sign language word for weird is this.
Jeremy (01:19.086)
It's like a three three eared bunny.
Andrew Adams (01:22.563)
Yep, that's weird.
Jeremy (01:23.682)
Awesome. And if you're new to the show, this is actually very typical. We get a little sidetracked sometimes. We talk about things that are not directly martial arts related because martial arts informs every corner of our lives. If you are returning for some numbered time, thank you for being here. Thanks for spending some time with us. We appreciate you doing this and not something else. Because it gives us the opportunity.
To do what we love to do, which is to talk about martial arts and share it with all of you. And on today's episode, we're talking about why martial artists argue about real quote real fighting. It's amazing to me that we're episode eleven, whatever, and we haven't we haven't done I don't think we've done this episode yet. It's kind of funny.
Andrew Adams (02:12.45)
Yeah, I mean we've done ones that skirt around this. You know, why why and and I think Yeah, we haven't taken a head on it. And I think some of the things we discuss we will have discussed in a few other episodes, but putting it together like this will be new.
Jeremy (02:15.508)
Yeah. We haven't taken this head on though.
Jeremy (02:24.95)
Yeah. Yep. Well, the I think the place that we have to start if we're gonna talk about real fighting is defining what is real fighting. What's a real fight? Andrew, what is a real fight?
Andrew Adams (02:36.356)
To me, a real fight is I'm on the street walking down the street and someone attacks me for whatever reason. Or I'm in a bar and something happens and there's an altercation and that altercation to me is a real fight.
Jeremy (02:54.452)
I I like formal definitions, right? my definition of martial arts has to do with hand to hand combat, right? And so I'm gonna pull some of that over to this. A real fight is hand to hand combat, which intentionally excludes firearms, because that's different, right? That's a different category of fight.
Whereby it is not mutual. A fight, a real fight, is a violent hand-to-hand altercation that is initiated by one person and remains non-mutual. Right? Because if you come up to me and you're like, hey, you want to fight? And I say, Yeah, sounds like a good time. That's not a real fight. But if you come up to me and say,
We're going to fight now, and I say, I don't want to, and you say that's tough. Right. and I think that that that trigger of it being initiated by one person becomes massively important because we're gonna we're gonna talk about the different kinds of of fighting, you know, sport fighting and everything. And what I think people often forget is the reluctant participation.
Andrew Adams (03:55.812)
Sure. Okay.
Jeremy (04:21.172)
is an incredibly important aspect when we talk about this subject.
Andrew Adams (04:26.361)
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I I also think that
For me, and I haven't thought about it the way that you described it, and and I I'm going to do that more prob as we do this episode. But I I almost I also f even if I'm in a bar and somebody pushes me and says, Hey, we're gonna fight, and I'm No, I don't wanna fight, and they say, No, we're gonna fight. And I say, Okay, we're gonna fight, I still feel like that's a real fight because there's no there's no rules. We have not said, Okay.
Let's go ahead and fight, but let's not do any fish hooks and let's not do any the and no I gouging, right? We're we there's no rule set. So even if someone says we're hey, let's fight. Okay, let's fight and they start punching each other, there's still no rules. And so I c I I I I have a hard time saying that's not a real fight.
Jeremy (05:17.774)
So I I this this might be a small semantic thing, but let's unpack it. I would imagine that in that situation you've tried to de escalate the situation and the only reason you are engaging is because you feel like it is the best of your bad choices.
Andrew Adams (05:23.309)
And it could be. Yep.
Andrew Adams (05:42.029)
Yep, but I am agreeing to fight.
Andrew Adams (05:47.927)
I don't I feel like I don't have a choice, but I'm agreeing.
Jeremy (05:50.313)
Yeah, yeah, and that that it it's that's why I said the reluctant participation, right? I I I I yeah, I believe we are. Okay. So i if that is our definition, right? What does that exclude? Any kind of mutual combat. If you and I compete at a point fighting tournament, it's not a fight. No matter how much we use the word fight, it's not a fight. It's point spark.
Andrew Adams (05:53.851)
Okay. All right, fair enough. All right, we're on the same page now.
Andrew Adams (06:14.998)
UFC.
Yep. Yep.
Jeremy (06:19.528)
If you and I are in a kickboxing match, full contact, all the way to knockout, that's not a fight. Because we agreed to do it. We prepared to do it. That is sport combat.
Andrew Adams (06:29.561)
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yep, absolutely and the same thing would be said of any MMA match, whether it's UFC or Pride or whatever. K one, it's it's more violent, perhaps, than sport karate, but it's not more real. It's still fighting, but there is a rule set. And we've both got we're both going in mutually agreeing to stick to those rules.
Jeremy (06:39.682)
Yes.
Jeremy (07:03.374)
I I think we could we could make the statement that it is it has more in common with a real fight in that the the risk of injury is greater in an MMA fight than a point sparring match. the level of of contact is I I've never seen a rule set that says this, there might be some, but to my knowledge any
Andrew Adams (07:10.459)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (07:16.251)
Mm-hmm.
Yep, for sure.
Jeremy (07:32.814)
full contact MMA or kickboxing does not say, yes, you can hit hard, but don't hit as hard as you want. Like dial it back. Right. It's Yeah. Yeah. It's it and and that is that holds things in common with what we are defining as a real fight.
Andrew Adams (07:41.847)
Yeah. only only hit with eighty percent of your power.
Jeremy (07:57.332)
The goals are different.
Almost every martial arts school I know.
Jeremy (08:08.372)
When they're talking about self-defense, when they're teaching self-defense, if they are having these stick conversations with their students, the use of force is only so far as it gains you the ability to safely remove yourself from the situation, to safely end the combat.
Versus I've seen plenty of sport combat competition where there is horrendous mismatch and continuing the fight, the match, puts one person at risk, but it continues.
They could quit, they choose not to, right? The person who is winning could leave at any time, but they wouldn't be deemed the victor if they did that, right? And that those are some important distinctions. The outcome, the goal is dramatically different.
Andrew Adams (09:10.383)
Yeah, yeah. And and we've talked about this in in in past episodes. There's no winning a real fight. Well we're talking about a real fight. but in a match that is, you know, contested people competing, there is going to be a winner and there's going to be a loser. that's very different from real uncontrolled violence.
Jeremy (09:35.886)
For sure. G rules if if there are rules, it's not a fight.
Andrew Adams (09:43.651)
Yeah. Yeah, I would agree.
Jeremy (09:45.728)
If if there is control, it's not a fight.
Andrew Adams (09:48.687)
Well, okay, no, I would say it is a fight. It's not a real fight. It is a fight. They are fighting. It is it is a competition.
Jeremy (09:55.991)
See, I don't I don't like the verb fight for anything that is not a fight.
Andrew Adams (10:04.088)
Interesting. Okay.
Jeremy (10:06.178)
I I really and and it's hard because for decades I've used I I have used this word much more broadly. I you know, I I was refereeing at a competition, a sparring a tournament this past weekend. I have friends who will initiate action by saying, fight. They're not fighting. They're seven.
Andrew Adams (10:14.149)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (10:33.453)
Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, that's fair. I get that. I get that.
Jeremy (10:34.828)
That's not a fight, right?
Jeremy (10:40.386)
I think and the reason that I don't like using the noun fight to apply to things that are not a fight and the verb fight to apply to things that are not fighting is I think it I think it trivializes what a fight actually is.
Andrew Adams (11:02.767)
Hmm. I see where you're going. I don't know that I agree with it, but I see where you're going. To to me, I think the
A I would agree that a point sparring match is not to me, I I don't know that I would define that as a fight, but a an MMA match where you know what, maybe it's a contact thing. Maybe it's a if it's if there's gonna be full contact, and this is just a me thing, this is just in my head. If there is full contact and I can hit you as hard as I want, and you can hit me as hard as you want, even if there's a rule set, I feel like that is a fight.
That in my in my brain.
Jeremy (11:46.83)
Sure.
Jeremy (11:50.977)
I I like organizing the world into ni into neat boxes and sometimes I apply language boundaries that most people would not and I think that this is probably one of those times.
Andrew Adams (12:00.556)
Yeah. Yeah. But either way, we definitely have a distinction in terms of what a real fight is. You know, the uncontrolled violence that you can't control what's going to happen. Yeah.
Jeremy (12:11.542)
Right. Right. And th this is this is where I think one of martial artists' favorite general societal comments comes into play. man, I could never I could never spar when it's go time, I just see red, right? Like how many of us have have seen that as a comment on on social media? And while it is comical ninety-nine percent of the time.
There is a portion of the population that is incredibly comfortable with violence and goes to a dark place. And it's very, it's very primal. And it is the I believe it's the reason. I I've spent a lot of time thinking about why it is we are absolutely terrified of small woodland creatures.
Because they don't have any they don't have control. If it's if it's viol time for violence, they will use everything they have. There's absolutely no reason to believe that I and a raccoon should be an even match. I should be able to dominate a raccoon in true in a true fight.
Andrew Adams (13:31.33)
Yeah, sure. Okay.
Jeremy (13:32.44)
But the raccoon is very comfortable going to that primal place using teeth and claws and not holding back in a way that I, in polite society, am not.
Andrew Adams (13:41.894)
House cat is another perfect example. Right? House cat. And and actually I I'm stealing this from Ian Abernathy. he has said at seminars that I've been at with him that, you know, when you get grabbed in this situation, it become the angry cat. Like an angry cat will do anything and everything it can to get out of the situation that it's in. And that's why I think this this comes up.
Jeremy (13:44.137)
yes Yeah.
Jeremy (13:59.801)
Mm.
Jeremy (14:17.634)
There there's something that gets kicked around when we talk about these subjects because it's it's you know, the subject of real fighting, it's you know, nobody's ever sitting down saying what is and is not a real fight, right? Like we've just spent the last ten minutes kind of debating semantics because I think it's important if you're gonna have a discussion on a subject like what is the thing, so we can make sure we're on the same page. This conversation, or this subject rather.
Is almost always about what would or would not work, or who would be better, or style, or whatever. It's always a this versus that. It's a better versus worse comparison. It's almost always a comparison, if not always a comparison. And what becomes really interesting is how much weight is placed on anecdotes.
Because this one person or this one style or this one punch or this one whatever or even three or seven was or was not effective, that it is somehow universally applicable to all.
Jeremy (15:33.88)
Bruce Lee this or that, thus, this or that. Jeet Kundo this or that. This person
Andrew Adams (15:38.085)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jeremy (15:44.661)
In the UFC
who trained in this style, now it's that style is or is not.
Jeremy (15:58.231)
And we d I think why do we do that? I have a theory. What's yours?
Andrew Adams (16:03.669)
I think it's okay, I will use this I will bring specific example. Lioda Machida came into the UFC with a heavy background in I believe Shotokan. I could be wrong, but it was definitely a traditional martial art. Right? And so if I'm a Shotokan practitioner, I want to believe that I I want to be a part of this club. Lioto Machida, big Shotokan guy.
Jeremy (16:21.078)
I think you're right.
Andrew Adams (16:33.391)
Obviously Shotokan works in quote air quote real situations, right? Real fighting, because that's what he's doing. I want to be a part of that. And so I'm gonna use that one anecdotal experience that even though it wasn't mine, but like I can use this one thing as it's universal for everybody. Well, here's the reality I'm not Leona Machida. You are not Leota Machida.
Jeremy (16:55.726)
Are you sure?
Andrew Adams (16:58.651)
No one on this podcast is Leona Machida, but if anybody has contact info for Leona Machita, I've tried, I've tried to contact him, it has never worked out. Please get them get him in touch with me. We'd love to have you on the show. Great. Anyway, none of us are him. And so there can be no universal truth on anything he does other than he can do this because he is him.
Jeremy (17:02.904)
But we would love to have him on this podcast, yeah.
Jeremy (17:24.104)
Nuance requires effort.
Andrew Adams (17:27.427)
Mm.
Jeremy (17:29.9)
And if you're trying to make an argument that makes yourself feel better because you want to paint yourself into a camp, a tribe, nuance doesn't have a place in those arguments. If I am traditional karate guy who believes traditional karate is the best of everything and the only thing and anything else is stupid, and someone tells me, well, you know
Karate is stupid and it doesn't work. And I'm like, Leoto Machito, UFC. And that's my response, right? That
That if we're being honest, that argument.
Doesn't apply to karate. Because let's face it, you could have given Leona Machita probably any martial art, and he would have been successful because he's Leona Machita.
Andrew Adams (18:21.935)
Yeah. And he were and I think you'd also be hard pressed to say that Leoda Machida, for as amazing as he is, went into his matches not using just Shotokan.
Jeremy (18:35.7)
He he was in the middle of his match, he did not suddenly start performing Heian Sandan and you know win, right? But you could take that same that same art, you know, the same style of argument and use it to attack karate. Well, you know, show me where he used Shotokan karate in his matches, and I could come back and be like, Well, here's this punch.
Andrew Adams (18:46.277)
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy (19:04.27)
Well when it makes that a a a karate punch versus a boxing punch, right? Like I find that sort of stuff interesting in an academic way. I would love to analyze Leoto Machida's fight tape and see where is the stuff that he's doing that feels similar to what I do or have done, and where is it not? Because as I find the contrast, it gives me ideas for how to modify my training.
Andrew Adams (19:06.447)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy (19:34.114)
That I find cool. What I don't find cool is I is arguing with people on the internet to no end. It does not benefit anyone. But for people who have never been in fights and are not experts in fighting.
All we have is anecdote. It is incredibly natural to bring forward the examples that we have that we can fall on because fortunately we live in a time where everybody's not getting in fights all the time.
So what else do we use?
Andrew Adams (20:13.103)
Yeah, very good point. Yeah, very good point. And and I the other thing is you know, we talk about what's effective and what's not effective. And you know, depending on what our goals are, can change what effective means.
Jeremy (20:20.982)
Mm.
Jeremy (20:30.114)
The number one thing that in training that makes you effective is your cardiovascular. Sorry, it's not your punches and your kicks. It's not your forms. It's not even your sparring. It's your cardio. Reason being, I have never seen a fight coach who has not said, I wish my fighter was less conditioned. I wish we'd spent less time on conditioning. In fact, what I've s I've seen
This is an anecdote, right? I don't have a survey, but especially I've especially see this said in boxing, the better conditioned fighter wins. Are there exceptions? Sure. But everything else being equal or even remotely equal, yeah, it comes down to conditioning. So when we talk about effective, effective at what? Effective in a real violent, reluctant confrontation.
Andrew Adams (21:15.673)
It makes a difference.
Jeremy (21:30.627)
is it one on one? Is it six on one?
It changes the game and it changes what would be effective.
Andrew Adams (21:43.801)
Yeah, and you know, these the different types of
Confrontations, shall we say, sp sport fighting, point point fighting, sport fighting, boxing, MMA, all of these things, they're solving different problems, right? That they're they're they're all coming at things in a different way because they're solving different problems. They're they're looking at it a different way.
Jeremy (22:04.351)
Mm.
I like that you said that.
Jeremy (22:13.91)
Right. The the pro the problem is how do I within the confines of this rule set reach victory? That is a different problem. And we haven't had anybody that's fit this mold on the show in a while, but we have had a number of people who have who went into kickboxing and then boxing, or vice versa. And they didn't I don't I don't know that they
put it quite as succinctly as you are, the notion of it's it's a different problem. But they did talk about, you know, I was really good at this part of it. And I was like, what happens if? What happens if I, a kickboxer, stop using my feet? Can I get good enough with my hands? Can I, as a boxer, learn to use my feet well enough that I can be a kickboxer, right? Like that's an interesting problem. And if you are someone who
Andrew Adams (23:06.288)
Yeah.
Jeremy (23:10.83)
Whose personal growth as a martial artist comes from setting the goals around competition? That makes all sorts of sense to me.
Andrew Adams (23:20.143)
Yeah. Yep, that's a good point.
Jeremy (23:27.744)
This sort of stuff when people are arguing about real fighting, it so quickly turns personal.
Andrew Adams (23:32.783)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (23:34.882)
And it's the main reason I won't engage in these confrontations because I have no interest in having a an academic nuanced conversation, stripped of nuance, and shifted from academic to a personal attack.
Jeremy (23:53.721)
For the record, I've been in one fight. I was in fourth grade. I don't can it doesn't really count. It fits the definition.
Andrew Adams (24:01.318)
Yeah.
Jeremy (24:11.155)
But I don't think that that makes me any more qualified to speak on violence.
Andrew Adams (24:16.603)
Yeah.
Jeremy (24:18.486)
Everything I understand about violence is academic. I'm very aware of that. Well, you've never been in a real fight. You are absolutely correct, and I am very proud of that fact.
Andrew Adams (24:27.673)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think a lot of the times that it becomes the arguments like that become personal and and we talked about it earlier is people wanna get a sense of they want to feel a sense of belonging that and being in air quotes right, right? Every nobody wants to be wrong. No one wakes up in the morning and says, I'm wanna be wrong about everything today, right? We we have this this feeling of wanting to be right.
And so it is difficult for people to admit when they're wrong sometimes. and if people would just realize that I'm always right, the world would be a such a better place for me.
Jeremy (25:07.92)
It it really would. It really would.
Andrew Adams (25:11.333)
But I think that I mean, I do think that that's part of the reason why arguments become personal.
Jeremy (25:18.754)
I think for a lot of people it's because they have nothing else. Right? Th there are there are people, and sadly there are quite a few of them that are martial artists who
Andrew Adams (25:21.915)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (25:33.684)
are so insecure with themselves, their lives, and even their training that they feel winning an internet argument
Jeremy (25:49.867)
Let's just say it staves off the voices that tell them they're not good enough. I think it's a waste of time. I don't think that's how you solve that problem.
Jeremy (26:04.376)
But a lot of people who feel the need to win that argument will turn personal.
Jeremy (26:11.532)
And that personal attack usually is well come to my school and I'll show you.
Which is a you know, if it was any other environment, if it wasn't a martial arts school, it would be very clearly a threat. And I'm pretty sure legally triggers something. But because it's a martial arts school, it doesn't.
Andrew Adams (26:28.027)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (26:35.033)
Yep.
Jeremy (26:43.8)
I don't know too many people who train because they want to be a fighter.
Jeremy (26:51.092)
If the goal of being a fighter is not on your list
Then don't worry about how good
Jeremy (27:02.56)
you or your skills translate into fighting.
Jeremy (27:09.534)
Most martial artists, I mean, if we think about the statistics, most of us are never gonna be in a fight. Those of us who d are.
Jeremy (27:22.186)
Unless we are training in a very specific way, you already have the the the the solutions you're going to use and it's gonna happen or it's not gonna happen. You're gonna survive or not.
Andrew Adams (27:38.97)
Yeah. A and it depends on what you're trying to accompl accomplish. Effectiveness depends on what you're trying to accomplish. You know, saying, that wouldn't be effective. Well, if my goal is just to knock him down and run away, great. If my goal was to knock him down and break his arm and I only knocked him down, well, okay, yeah, maybe that wouldn't be effective. But it depends on what I'm trying to accomplish.
Jeremy (28:12.584)
What is a real fight to all of you?
How closely aligned is your training to the notion of real fighting?
How much time do you spend in a given week arguing with other people on the internet about fighting?
And should you spend less?
Andrew Adams (28:37.071)
The answer's probably yes.
Jeremy (28:38.411)
The answer is yes.
The answer is if you have time to argue with idiots on the internet about fighting, you have time to train more.
Jeremy (28:50.348)
And we want to hear your thoughts on this. So you can email us, Jeremy at Andrew at Whistlekick.com. But we would love to see your comments on YouTube for this episode or Spotify or super bonus points. You join the martial arts radio Facebook page and you leave your comments there because that's where the best conversation is. It's not YouTube.
Thank you, everyone. Thanks for being here. If you have topics that you want us to unpack, if there's a tangent you want us to take, let's hear it. If you are an actor,
I'm gonna invite this, even though I I know it's not gonna happen. If you I I I I like I like how excited you are for this. If you have been in a whole bunch of fights and you disagree with our assessment of things, and you wanna come on the show and you acknowledge the fact that you having been in a bunch of fights, real fights as I'm defining them, not you know,
Andrew Adams (29:36.537)
Mm.
Jeremy (29:55.712)
orchestrated combat with the possible exception of law enforcement officers or those serving in the military.
If you've been in a lot of fights and you are not one of those two people and you want to come on the show and tell me where I'm wrong and you accept the fact that I'm going to show you that and tell you that you are the pro if you're getting in a whole bunch of fights, you're the problem, then you can reach out and we'll put you on the show. If you've got something better to talk about, you will put you on the show as well. Just reach out and we'll we'll put together an outline. All right, Andrew, what'd we miss? Anything?
Andrew Adams (30:24.933)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (30:30.522)
Let's do it.
Andrew Adams (30:39.981)
No, I think that was really good.
Jeremy (30:42.956)
Me too. I'm thinking of someone. I don't know if you remember them. They haven't been around in a while because they blocked me on everything. But there was a person who used who justified a lot of what they said with I've been in 37 fights in the last six years or something. I'm like, you are the problem. That's not that is that is not the the defense. No, no, that is not. That is not a we are not gonna compliment you for that.
Andrew Adams (31:00.846)
Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (31:05.285)
Humble brag that you think it is.
Jeremy (31:12.15)
All right, everybody out there, we appreciate you spending some time with us.
Send this episode to somebody. Who needs to hear this? Or who do you want to hear this? So on the other side of it, the two of you can have a conversation because you like talking about such things. Do that.
With that, we're gonna close. Until next time, train hard, smile, and have a great day.
Andrew Adams (31:34.787)
Smile and have a great day.