Episode 1097 - Are All Martial Artists Outcasts

In this episode Jeremy and Andrew discuss whether all martial artists are outcasts in some way.

Are All Martial Artists Outcasts - Episode 1097

SUMMARY

In this episode, Andrew Adams and Jeremy Lesniak explore the perception of martial artists as societal outcasts. They discuss the unique aspects of martial arts training that can be seen as strange by outsiders, the sense of community and belonging that practitioners find within their training, and the evolving perception of martial arts in society. The conversation emphasizes the importance of individuality and self-expression in martial arts, and how being an outcast can be empowering rather than negative.

TAKEAWAYS

• Martial arts can be perceived as strange by outsiders.

• Many martial artists embrace their identity despite societal norms.

• The commitment to martial arts often leads to a sense of community among practitioners.

• Injuries and physicality in martial arts can create a unique bond among practitioners.

• The perception of martial arts has evolved over time, becoming more mainstream.

• Soft skills are increasingly valued in martial arts training.

• Martial artists often feel a sense of belonging within their training community.

• The concept of being an outcast can be empowering for martial artists.

• Martial arts training can provide a sense of identity and purpose.

• Criticism from others often stems from their own insecurities.

CHAPTERS

00:00 Introduction
02:09 Exploring Martial Artists as Societal Outcasts
04:02 The Importance of Fighting Skills in Martial Arts
06:11 Soft Skills vs. Combat Skills in Martial Arts
08:30 The Nature of Martial Arts and Its Perception
11:08 The Identity of Martial Artists
13:44 The Evolution of Martial Arts Acceptance
16:31 The Weirdness of Martial Arts
19:18 Defining Outcasts in Martial Arts
22:04 Finding Community in Martial Arts
23:36 Embracing the Outcast Identity
24:51 Conclusion and Final Thoughts

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SHOW TRANSCRIPT

Jeremy Lesniak (11:35.176)

What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. And on today's episode, Andrew and I are going to discuss the question, are all martial artists outcasts? I bet you already have an opinion on that, but bear with us. Let's unpack this together. I'm joined today by my good friend, Andrew Adams. welcome. Thanks for all that you do for the show.

Andrew Adams (12:03.241)

I don't do anything.

Jeremy Lesniak (12:04.622)

Nothing at all. No, you just kind of, you know, most of it. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, founder here at Whistlekick, and I do some things. I wear a lot of hats, which is good, because I don't have any hair. And if you're new to the show and to what we do, please.

Check out whistlekickcommercialartsradio.com. It's where you're going to find every single episode we have ever done. The video versions, the audio versions. You can sign up for our newsletter while you're over there. Now, what is this newsletter? Really, it's pretty simple. We email you the episodes when they come out, as well as some bonus material. And if you like the show, you should do that because it makes it easier to find. You can also, and probably should also, subscribe and wherever you are, Spotify, Apple Podcasts.

YouTube, but when you get those emails, we give you all the best stuff because we can't put everything in the show notes. Those platforms won't let us. So if you want the bonus material, the outtakes, all that good stuff, make sure you sign up and you'll find that link to sign up anywhere you're going to find the show itself. All right, Andrew, are we ready to dig in? We're ready to do this. Okay.

Andrew Adams (13:15.948)

Let's dig in.

Jeremy Lesniak (13:20.862)

is that you pantomiming digging?

Andrew Adams (13:22.402)

Yeah, dig it.

Jeremy Lesniak (13:24.648)

It was a very short shovel and it looks like you are already in a hole as you are digging. I feel like if you're in the hole, you probably shouldn't be digging above yourself. could be a problem. Maybe. Maybe you're digging a boxhole.

Andrew Adams (13:34.807)

Maybe I'm digging a foxhole.

Jeremy Lesniak (13:43.386)

Martial artists are weird. And I think that we can say that with some confidence because what we do is weird. And weird people, it's kind of required to be a weird person to do a weird thing. What we do is strange. If you've never seen martial arts before, if you have no idea what it is, if you come in from another planet or out of the woods and you watch people,

Andrew Adams (13:46.082)

Yeah, we are.

Jeremy Lesniak (14:12.156)

conducting themselves in a typical traditional martial arts class, you will see them trying to almost hit each other or hit each other gently. So that's kind of weird because we're not actually trying to hurt them. We're trying to better ourselves, right? That's weird. We practice these techniques and let's face it, we're generally doing.

Andrew Adams (14:21.966)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Lesniak (14:36.46)

some techniques that don't have a lot of application to them. They're kind of niche, they're kind of odd. And we wear funny clothes, most of us, and we have this pseudo-militaristic hierarchy going on. And we memorize things, everything from language to choreographed fake fights.

And a lot of us talk in foreign languages when we don't even understand what the words mean sometimes. That's all weird, right?

Andrew Adams (15:09.368)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Adams (15:12.974)

Yeah, and for a lot of people, it consumes a lot of their life in a really heavy way. All aspects of their life revolve around the martial art that they train in. And for a lot of people, that is weird.

Jeremy Lesniak (15:36.028)

Yeah, yeah, when you layer in the commitments outside of training that go into this, doing the laundry for this, right? If you have a really heavy uniform, you know that that does not launder easily. You have to pay money to do this. You will probably get banged and bruised up. So now there are wounds and injuries to deal with.

Andrew Adams (15:58.831)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Lesniak (16:00.356)

and it is time away from other people because while plenty of families do train together, I'm going to say that based on my observations, the majority of people who train do not train with the people they live with.

Andrew Adams (16:13.166)

Yeah, I would agree they do train a lot of them but not all and you're right probably a vast majority and and I think that the part that that you kind of glossed over is But I think is important is walking around with bruises all the time

Jeremy Lesniak (16:28.914)

Yeah, yeah, this idea that we go do this thing and then.

we show up to the rest of the world proud of it when a lot of the things that we exhibit in our day-to-day lives are counter to societal norms, right? The injury stuff is probably the most prominent.

Andrew Adams (16:58.412)

Yeah, I would agree.

Jeremy Lesniak (16:58.948)

Most people, if they're walking around with a black eye, are embarrassed. There are a lot of martial artists who are like, hey, did see my black eye? Can we talk about it? Right? That's kind of strange.

Andrew Adams (17:08.078)

you

Yeah, yeah, I actually, had a martial arts friend and I would send pictures back and forth of our, bruises we might get on our arm. Look how purple it is over here. yeah, yeah, yeah, it is. You're right. You're right.

Jeremy Lesniak (17:21.04)

It's weird. Okay. So I think I don't think anyone would ever disagree with the notion that what we do is a bit odd. We love it. It makes sense to us. But when we look at it through the contemporary societal lens,

It's kind of strange. Now you can make the argument that a hundred years ago it was less strange or whatever, but when we think about it today, it's kind of strange.

Andrew Adams (17:56.303)

And I think it has its ups and downs in terms of it being common, putting in air quotes, commonplace or accepted is not the right word. I don't think it's ever not been accepted, but I think there have been upswings and downswings of when it has been more popular and mainstream. And I do think we're starting to get...

into an upswing of it being a little more mainstream now to do martial arts. And I think part of that is due to a number of celebrities that are involved in martial arts. And so people are seeing it as less weird, but I think those of us that have been in it a really long time, you and I, and likely a lot of our listeners or watchers, if you're on YouTube, have been in it a long time and have seen where it

It wasn't as societally accepted.

Jeremy Lesniak (18:55.356)

Yeah, I think that social proof is making people more comfortable trying it, but that doesn't make it unweird, right? People are willing to try things. And I think the best example I can offer of that transition actually doesn't come from martial arts. I'm sure you've seen the Big Bang Theory. I'm gonna guess a lot of our audience has.

Andrew Adams (19:06.872)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Lesniak (19:23.576)

If you take a look at the arc of that show through time, it gave a lot of people a lot of permission to do their nerdy things, to play role-playing games, to play video games, to be more public about it.

Andrew Adams (19:33.966)

That's a really good point

Jeremy Lesniak (19:39.4)

The aspect of that show that I, or the nerdy pursuit that I think changed most in the modern landscape is role playing games, Dungeons and Dragons, you know, and so forth. There is a huge difference in the way Western society perceives those things. And I believe it is single-handedly because of that show.

Andrew Adams (20:00.994)

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that, but that's a really, really good point that things like tabletop games, the most common being Dungeons and Dragons, or even live action role playing, large things like that have become a lot more mainstream. And you're right. I think that show is a major part of that.

Jeremy Lesniak (20:23.472)

Now, the reason I cite that show is because even though those things have gotten more popular,

Even the people participating in them will say, this is weird, this is nerdy, it's kind of silly, but I still enjoy it. And I think that that is what most martial artists would say if you ask them, hey, is what you do, think about it, is it kind of weird? I think most people, even if, maybe they haven't thought about it that way before, but if they stop to think about it, they'll say, you know what? What we do is pretty strange. We make friends by punching each other in the face. I mean, there's a lot of us that make that joke. You know, I made my best friend because I kicked him in the head.

You know, it's a ridiculous thing to say, and it's even more ridiculous because it's true in a lot of cases. Acceptance of it doesn't make it less strange given the conventional landscape. And what I find really interesting, you know, when we use words like strange or weird, we're usually talking about...

the way the majority of people look at things, right? What I don't have data on that I really, know, as Whistlekick grows, I really want data on this single thing. What percentage of people alive have done martial arts? We have data on who is currently doing martial arts, but I'm sure you just like I bump into people all the time and say, yeah, I did whatever for, you know, a year or two or three years.

Andrew Adams (21:38.861)

Mmm.

Jeremy Lesniak (21:48.04)

when I was a kid or when I was a teenager or in my 20s or you know I did wrestling or boxing you know if we if we go to everybody you know is that is that at a majority level even if it is I don't think it is my guess my guess is going to be 30 to 40 percent by the way

Andrew Adams (21:49.166)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Adams (22:05.868)

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak (22:07.598)

Even if we had 60, 70, 80 % of the world that had done some martial arts at some point, I don't think that changes the fact that it is strange and we see it as strange. And here's my proof. When a martial artist posts a video of them doing something that other martial artists have not generally seen before, it is often torn apart.

Andrew Adams (22:33.23)

Hmm. Yep.

Jeremy Lesniak (22:34.598)

Right? And I'm not just talking about, I've done this, you know, I'm showing how I do this form. No, I'm talking about weird. And I'm intentionally not using specifics here because all the ones I come up with, people are going to get derailed in the conversation. And I want you to just kind of stay with us. I can show you a new drill that I do and...

The more creative it is, the more weird it is, and the more likely people are gonna, mm, actually I do have a great example. Here's one, and it's one that you probably won't think is weird, Andrew, because you and I have spent enough time together, but it is weird in much of the martial art, traditional martial arts world. Very, very slow movement. When I do seminars with this, when I travel, when I'm leading people in these sessions, a lot of people struggle with it.

Andrew Adams (23:18.519)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak (23:28.04)

And they struggle with it because they struggle to even wrap their head around why. Now, we're not going to get bogged into that. We've done plenty of episodes on slow and why that's relevant. But even within our own circles, we think what a lot of us do is weird.

Andrew Adams (23:31.584)

Yeah, yeah.

Andrew Adams (23:45.549)

Yeah, yeah, no, I would definitely agree. And you're right. If people don't understand something, they see it as even more bizarre. And so the slow is a perfect example of that.

Jeremy Lesniak (24:00.838)

Now the question we have at hand is, does weird and strange constitute outcast? Are the people participating in weird and strange things necessarily outcast? I don't think so, but I think there is a point where what you do is weird enough and strange enough that people see you doing those things and they do create some distance from you.

Andrew Adams (24:27.66)

Yeah. And even if you think about the uniform that we wear in many schools, not all, but most schools wear a different clothes than they would normally wear out on the street. Most schools aren't training in jeans and t-shirt. Are there reasons to do so? Yes. We're not going to get into that, but I feel a little bizarre myself.

If I leave the school and because sometimes I leave the house and I'll put my karate pants on and I'll have a t-shirt on and then I'll go to the school. I'll put on my top at the school and my belt and I'll have class. And when I leave class, I'll take my top off and I'll take my belt off, but I still have those pants on and I'm like, shoot, I need to run to the grocery store.

I feel a little weird because it is not what typically people wear.

Jeremy Lesniak (25:25.926)

And I think that that physical response, kind of that, you know, right? Because maybe you're not embarrassed, you're not panicked, you're not fearful, but you are aware that other people are aware of what you are doing. And it is strange.

Andrew Adams (25:42.274)

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak (25:46.376)

So what does it mean to be an outcast? An outcast is someone who doesn't feel like they belong. Whether they feel that way falsely or others have made them feel that way, others have physically put them out, right? I don't quite know the etymology of that term, but I don't think we have to go back too far to think, okay, an outcast is someone who was literally cast out of their tribe, right?

Andrew Adams (26:13.506)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Jeremy Lesniak (26:17.522)

Who is your tribe? I think for a lot of us, we look geographically. It is the people that you live with and work with. Those are your modern day tribe. And if you're not doing martial arts with most of them, what you are doing, a large part of your identity, because I don't know too many martial artists who've been training more than, I would say two, three years, that do not have some portion of their identity wrapped up in their training.

When part of who you are is viewed differently, dramatically differently by the people in your tribe, and you are aware of that and continue to do that thing, you are choosing to participate in something that has distance between you and your tribe.

Andrew Adams (27:11.48)

Yep. Yep.

Jeremy Lesniak (27:15.344)

And I think you could, depending on how you wanted to find these terms, because there's some ambiguity here, I think most people could say, I am a bit of an outcast. I'm a bit of a weirdo. I've heard, and I think this is Craig's term, he may have taken it from someone else, that martial arts schools are islands of misfit toys.

Andrew Adams (27:41.742)

Yeah, I've heard that too. And it might have been from Craig. don't remember, but yes.

Jeremy Lesniak (27:48.72)

And I think that recognizing this, know, and we should probably be really clear. We're not disparaging anyone, especially since we're about as deep into this as anybody else.

Andrew Adams (27:58.831)

We're in that group.

Jeremy Lesniak (28:05.01)

But here's the proof. Here's how I would prove it. And Andrew, I'm gonna guess you identify with this too. I am most comfortable in my life wearing my gi.

training with other people wearing a gi training. It almost doesn't matter what we're training. Doesn't matter where we are. I am that that is who I am.

Andrew Adams (28:25.186)

Yeah. Yep.

Andrew Adams (28:34.488)

Yeah, yep, no, I would agree with that statement for me as well, for sure. It's either that or drumsticks in my hand.

Jeremy Lesniak (28:41.576)

Sure, sure, I get that. Which, know, again, we could say all the things that we said about that, about musicians, musicians are a weird lot. I think the biggest difference is that there's more social acceptance of being a musician. When you reach a certain standing, you know, it's like, my God, you're a musician. That's how everybody's talking to you. Nobody's out there saying, my God, YouTube, where's Warts?

Andrew Adams (28:48.557)

Mm-hmm.

Andrew Adams (28:56.972)

Yeah, yeah

Andrew Adams (29:11.736)

I'm gonna come home tonight and Teresa's gonna be like, my God, you know martial arts.

Jeremy Lesniak (29:15.468)

I hope she does and if she does I hope she records it because I want to see her because that'd be funny

Andrew Adams (29:19.292)

Hahaha

Jeremy Lesniak (29:23.324)

Being an outcast isn't bad. Being an outcast is living your own life your way, regardless of what other people think or want. It is not a bad thing. A lot of the things that I choose to do around health and fitness are perceived as strange and kind of always been that way. kind of, you know, mean.

Andrew Adams (29:32.962)

which is not a bad thing.

Jeremy Lesniak (29:46.918)

I didn't end up writing books on health, 12 months to health by the way, for those of you out there. I didn't end up writing that book because I was a mainstream follower of what everyone else does in health and fitness. It's because I'm constantly researching and testing and trying to find new and better and more efficient ways to keep myself healthy. I think a lot of us are.

on a simpler level doing that with our training. We're looking for the things that we can do day to day that scratch a particular itch, make us smile, make us comfortable, whatever those things are. most people, while we have said time and again,

Everyone would benefit from traditional martial arts training. We are still on this mission at whistle kick to get everybody to train for at least six months across the globe. Yes, we all still want that. But that doesn't mean that in any given martial arts school, the majority of people would find it something that they did not want to do. Most people would not have an enjoyable time in my martial arts school, long term.

They wouldn't, I know they wouldn't, because we do things in a certain way. But some of them would find value in, I'm thinking of other schools that are around here. A good chunk of those that, let's say washed out from training with me, would train better and have more fun at that school or that school or that school. And if everybody keeps trying, they're eventually gonna find a school that will work for them.

Andrew Adams (31:33.24)

Yeah, no, I fully agree. And as we train longer, we start to find that although we might be, and I'm putting this in air quotes, outcast, we found our own tribe and we make our own tribe within our school.

Jeremy Lesniak (31:56.358)

I think I'll, I think.

Jeremy Lesniak (32:00.788)

some of us because we, I don't know that I wanna say this as exclusively to those who are training as children, but I think it's a pretty universal experience to feel othered as a child. Even, and I've come to learn this as an adult, even the people that I thought were the most social, popular, et cetera, they also felt some degree of being othered. And a lot of them,

Andrew Adams (32:27.789)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Lesniak (32:30.184)

had to change the way they were and showed up to be in that role, but they weren't living authentically. So again, I think we all go through this.

But when we find a thing that makes us feel good, that gives us some identity and a place to plant our flag as to this is part of who I am. And even if most people don't accept it, there are people that accept it. I'm not the only one. That is really powerful and really validating. And you and I are gonna record a second episode today that I think actually could plug in right here about

Andrew Adams (32:56.812)

Yep. Yep. Yep.

Jeremy Lesniak (33:13.064)

the non-physical, the soft skills, a lot of the personality stuff and mental, emotional stuff that shows up with long-term training. And I think that that's where for so many of us we say, I don't even, I don't care if nobody gets it. I do not care because this is who I am and I need this.

Andrew Adams (33:38.274)

Yeah, no, fully agree.

Jeremy Lesniak (33:41.394)

So I wanna recognize all of you out there. you are like I am, like I believe I can speak for you, Andrew, like you are, like so many of our friends are, like the whole core team at Whistlekick is.

Jeremy Lesniak (33:57.65)

We don't see being outcast as a bad thing. We're choosing to do something different that works for us. And that's awesome. And if you are someone who is doing something different and it works for you and it doesn't hurt anybody else, then you have every right to do that. And that goes back to the six freedoms of martial arts. You have the right to train how you want, where you want, with whom you want, why you want, when you want.

Andrew Adams (34:06.243)

Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Lesniak (34:25.704)

towards whatever goals and nobody has a right to ruin that for you because it's about you, it's about your training. If you continue to train, you may be even further cast out. no, that's okay. You're doing you for your sake, you deserve that. Everybody wants the confidence to do their own thing.

the loudest people who criticize, and this happens within our sphere as well, the loudest critics, those are the ones who are the most afraid to step out and do their own thing. They are jealous of your confidence, and they are trying to ruin your willingness, because the more you do your own thing, the less they have other people doing their thing.

Andrew Adams (35:04.13)

Good point.

Jeremy Lesniak (35:20.272)

and they're afraid of being even further cast out. To those of you who do that, I understand. It is scary out there, but it's okay. You'll be fine. Do your thing. Train your way, et cetera.

Andrew Adams (35:38.348)

Yep, that's a great note to end on.

Jeremy Lesniak (35:43.92)

If you have feedback for this episode, we want to hear it. You can send all complimentary emails to me, jeremy at whistlekick.com. If you have anything hateful to say, you can send it to andrew at whistlekick.com. Our social media everywhere you could think of is at whistlekick. And don't forget, don't forget, release audio versions, but also video versions. are on YouTube the day of release and the video versions are on Spotify.

Usually pretty close. We've got to go and there's a manual thing that we've got to do that Andrew does a great job on. So thank you for that. And if you want this and every other episode sent right to you so you have the most convenient way to go watch, listen and never miss a thing. Que Aerosmith tune here. Make sure you sign up for the emails in the show notes wherever you're getting this episode. There's a link there all the time.

Anything else we add before we bounce over here? All right. Thanks for being here. Thanks for spending some time with us. We appreciate you and your support. And until next time, train hard, smile, have a great day.

Andrew Adams (36:42.828)

No, I think that's great.

Andrew Adams (36:52.334)

Train hard, smile, and have a great day.