Episode 1159 - Why So Many Martial Arts Conversations Go Nowhere
Jeremy and Andrew discuss why so many discussions in martial arts go nowhere.
Why So Many Martial Arts Conversations Go Nowhere - Episode 1159
SUMMARY
In this episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio, Jeremy and Andrew explore the dynamics of conversations within the martial arts community. They discuss the impact of nostalgia, echo chambers, and ego on discussions, emphasizing the importance of open-mindedness and finding common ground. The conversation highlights the challenges posed by the internet and social media, which often simplify complex topics into binary choices. The hosts encourage listeners to embrace nuance, avoid toxic comparisons, and focus on personal growth in their martial arts journey.
TAKEAWAYS
Nostalgia can hinder progress in martial arts conversations.
Echo chambers create rigid identities in martial arts practitioners.
Ego often leads to defensive behavior in discussions.
Finding common ground is essential for productive conversations.
The internet simplifies complex martial arts topics into binary choices.
Open-mindedness fosters better understanding and learning.
Avoiding toxic comparisons enhances personal growth in martial arts.
Conversations should focus on shared experiences rather than differences.
Personal growth is more important than defending a specific style.
Engaging with differing opinions can lead to valuable insights.
CHAPTERS
00:00 The Impact of Nostalgia on Martial Arts Conversations
02:56 Echo Chambers and Identity in Martial Arts
06:03 The Role of Ego in Martial Arts Discussions
08:58 Navigating Conversations: Finding Common Ground
11:57 The Influence of the Internet on Martial Arts Dialogue
14:49 Strategies for Productive Martial Arts Conversations
17:59 Embracing Nuance and Open-Mindedness
20:59 The Importance of Personal Growth in Martial Arts
23:53 Avoiding Toxic Comparisons in Martial Arts
26:54 Conclusion: Cultivating a Positive Martial Arts Community
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Jeremy (00:02.594)
What's happening everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, joined by my great friend Andrew Adams. Andrew, how are you?
Andrew Adams (00:15.672)
I am great. I'm great.
Jeremy (00:18.21)
Are you great or are you grrrrreat?
Andrew Adams (00:20.851)
I yes.
Jeremy (00:25.25)
You know, kids are not gonna grow up with the unification of those silly little pop culture references that we all have. How many of you out there know exactly what I was referencing just by adding a few R's to the word great? And if you're younger, and I know our audience tends to skew, you know
Andrew Adams (00:43.325)
Yeah, that's that's a good point.
Jeremy (00:54.86)
Most of our audience is like 35 to 55. So I'm gonna guess that I don't know, where's that cutoff? Late 30s? If you're below that, you might not be aware that I'm referencing a serial commercial. But all the rest of you are like, of course it's Frosted Flakes, Tony the Tiger. They're great.
Andrew Adams (01:17.969)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it you know it's not something I thought about and this is totally not martial arts related much at all. But yeah, like w you know, w there are lots of product or brand slogans that kids growing up these days just don't have ref don't have access to because they don't watch T V, which means they lose out on commercials.
Jeremy (01:23.17)
Yeah, let's go.
Jeremy (01:42.072)
We we had how many times did all of us have to see commercials for that serial, for that sound bite to be deeply embedded in our brain that 35 years later it is still that forward in our mind. It's that deeply baked in.
Andrew Adams (02:09.361)
Yeah. Yep. Anyway, this conversation is going nowhere.
Jeremy (02:11.807)
And
Well, the You know what I think's funny? We had no plans to to to talk about that, but I think it actually does lead us into this conversation about why so many martial arts conversations go nowhere. I think one of the places that we can start is I would call it echo chamber. Why why did so many of us have drilled into our brain
Andrew Adams (02:35.133)
Hmm. Yep.
Jeremy (02:44.322)
That serial slogan. And I could, you know, I could probably spend some some time with and come up with a handful of others that you'd have no problem also remembering. do you still remember the name, colors, and order of the Lucky Charms marshmallows?
Andrew Adams (02:56.558)
sure.
Andrew Adams (03:03.737)
No. I don't.
Jeremy (03:05.976)
Somewhat pink hearts are orange stars, yellow moons, green clovers, blue diamonds, purple horseshoes, and then for a period of time red balloons. I bet a bunch of you out there when Andrew said no, I bet you started rattling them off.
Andrew Adams (03:11.921)
Red balloons, yeah.
Andrew Adams (03:17.575)
Yeah. But I can name you I can tell you what's in a Big Mac.
To all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese pickles, onions, on a sesame seed bun.
Jeremy (03:26.754)
And there are a lot of those that, you know, if we dig in, we'll find. But why? Because there were only for most of us, there were only a few TV channels. We had no way to skip commercials. And marketing at that time was incredibly focused on demographics. So if we're watching after school or Saturday mornings, to a lesser degree Sunday mornings, we were getting bombarded with the same sort of commercials. And so we saw them every commercial break.
Andrew Adams (03:51.059)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Jeremy (03:54.796)
You might get a frosted flakes or you know, breakfast cereal was was a popular thing. a breakfast cereal commercial every 10 minutes for years, for hours a week and years of of your life. And that leaves a mark. Now, if you train at a martial arts school where you are told this is how you punch, because your instructor does not say every time, this is how we punch in this school, this is the correct way here. And if you train somewhere else.
They may do it differently and that's fine for them, but this is what we do because that's way too long. So your instructor says, this is the right way to punch. And if you've heard that for years and then someone else punches and it's not exactly that way, you've been conditioned that that's wrong.
Andrew Adams (04:32.104)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (04:42.833)
Yeah. Yep. No, that's a really good point. And and I think the other thing that often happens is why conversations often go nowhere is people are stuck in the past. We're talking about the past right now, right? We're talking about how it used to be. And in order to progress a conversation, you can't always just talk about nostalgia.
Jeremy (05:07.278)
To my knowledge, martial arts is the only industry where we value old things more than new things. I I don't mean in terms of physical objects, right? But in terms of knowledge or skill or practice.
Andrew Adams (05:20.178)
Yeah.
Jeremy (05:26.072)
I don't think there's anything else that does that. I I'm I'm I'm not aware of anybody that let's say works with horses and says, you know, this is how Genghis Khan managed his horse herd. So this is what we're going to do.
Andrew Adams (05:42.023)
Yeah, or a surgeon who's like, you know what? Back in the day they used to do the surgery this way. We should go back to that.
Jeremy (05:49.292)
Battlefield amputations with a rusty saw and no anesthetic. Let's let's bring that into our surgery wards today. No, of course not. But we will say this is how Funakoshi did it. So that's how we should do it.
Andrew Adams (06:03.923)
It's a really good point, you know. I I I have a I can't call him a friend 'cause he's another podcaster that I listen to and he has a a a quote that I've always enjoyed and I I think it's relevant here. It's that n often nostalgia is a toxic impulse.
Jeremy (06:20.718)
Hmm. I can see that.
Andrew Adams (06:22.655)
And I I think I I see a lot of validity to that. And when we then correlate that to martial arts, that becomes you know nostalgia is revered in martial arts.
Jeremy (06:37.346)
Yes. Yes. And you know, fortunately not by everyone. And if you haven't been around a while, you might be wondering why are these why are these guys who train traditional martial arts bashing tradition? We're we're not. We I I I believe I can speak for you, Andrew. We and many of us in the arts see an opportunity to advance.
the intention of what came before.
Without throwing it away and starting over. That just because what we were handed is imperfect does not mean our only choices are keep it exactly as it is or throw it away and start from scratch. That there is the majority of the middle ground that allows us to move things forward, and that's beneficial.
Andrew Adams (07:28.755)
Mm. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (07:41.735)
Yeah, no, you're right. it's not it's not something that I that I had thought of a lot, but it's it's very true.
Jeremy (07:52.463)
So when when we get stuck in that binary of keep it or throw it away, it it can force people into thinking that what they do is is a box and they have to remain in it and it becomes their identity. They become loyal to a style. Their I their identity, their their personhood is wrapped up in not I train martial arts or I'm a martial artist or I
Train or play is my favorite verb, you know, karate taekwondo. But I do this style of this art in this lineage and I know everything about the history on it and if if pushed on the on the topic, it is the best thing to train.
Andrew Adams (08:32.968)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (08:44.348)
Yeah, yeah. R people often see their way as the right way and every other way as the wrong way, and that there's no other way to do it. And as we all know, there's there's more than one way to skin a cat. There's actually nine.
Jeremy (08:58.994)
And that becomes problematic because if you're having a conversation with someone on a subject that at all relates to their training or or how that style does things or whatever, because their identity is wrapped up in it now. They're not just having an academic or philosophical conversation. They're defending who they are.
Even a a a friendly conversation can feel like an attack.
And that's really unfortunate because there's so much that can be gained.
People end up
Jeremy (09:41.568)
And so many of us are still guilty of this. We end up debating this system or style versus that.
Jeremy (09:53.761)
I can't tell you. multiple times per day I see a video that is two people sparring or fighting or or you know some some manner of exchange. And it is not posed as Bill fights Tom. It's karate versus taekwondo. As if Bill is has been ordained to represent all of karate and Tom
Andrew Adams (10:12.839)
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
Andrew Adams (10:20.221)
Ha ha ha.
Jeremy (10:21.418)
was nominated and voted on, and everyone agreed that Tom represents all of Taekwondo. It is the most ridiculous way to characterize anything.
Andrew Adams (10:27.58)
Yeah.
Jeremy (10:35.448)
I'm gonna have two kids over here. one's gonna read a book and the other's gonna listen to music. And at the end I'm gonna survey them on their thoughts and I'm gonna title it Words versus Sound. Which one is better?
Andrew Adams (10:53.437)
Yeah. No, that's a really good point. And you know, you also brought up earlier the point of about punching, right? And you know, I think most most of us listening or watching would if they're teaching a punch, would punch with we'll say the four knuckles straight up and the thumb down, right? But there are definitely styles that punch with what we would call a vertical fist.
Jeremy (11:17.836)
Yeah. I grew up in one of Ishin Ru.
Andrew Adams (11:20.433)
I I I I was never taught that way. That's not how I personally learned, but I would never get into a discussion with someone and say that you're not allowed to punch somebody with a vertical fist. In fact, I see a lot of uses where that might be more beneficial depending on what you're doing. But I would but I don't I was never taught it, and I personally don't know that I would teach it in a class. I never certainly never have.
Jeremy (11:48.118)
It's more powerful at a mid range too. If you think about rotation.
Andrew Adams (11:50.449)
You know, so there there are definitely reas cases and reasons to do it. Boxers do it.
Jeremy (11:56.841)
There's all sorts of reason to do all sorts of things. But I think, you know, these conversations have been difficult forever because they require nuance, shades of gray, middle ground. And if there's one thing the internet has done that I hate, it is the removal of nuance. It's A or B, it's black or white, it's this or that. And
Andrew Adams (11:57.951)
Yeah. Absolutely.
Jeremy (12:26.124)
You know, I I remember when I first became aware of this, and and this is going to be completely outside martial arts. So let's go back to 1995 and internet chat rooms. And there was one that I frequented because I was a a karate nerd with very few friends. And so a lot of my friends were online. It was a way that I I coped. That's a whole different subject. And
1995 was the height of the East versus West Coast rap feuds. And as someone who's always enjoyed rap music, I was very aware of the subject. And so sometimes people would make the the even then, and remember, 1995 is pretty early on in in internet years, they would ask, you know.
East or West, Tupac or Biggie. And I never could wrap my head around that. I was why do I have to choose? I like both. I have a preference. But I I don't I don't need to just choose one. And as we move, and and so I think the reason I brought that up is it's not just because of the internet that we do this. It requires effort and energy to exist in the gray.
Andrew Adams (13:32.85)
Mm-hmm.
Andrew Adams (13:40.242)
Yeah. Yeah, you can enjoy both.
Jeremy (13:55.545)
We like being in a bucket and knowing that we've made the right choice, A or B. And as an aside, this is why what I believe all political problems today root from is the the energy required to be in the middle in any way. It becomes identity. I'm a this, I'm a this style.
Jeremy (14:24.651)
Not very different.
Andrew Adams (14:26.172)
Yeah, yeah. And it and it's i I liken it often to the argument that people sometimes will make and I'm gonna give a dumb example, but Jeremy, do you would you rather have a cheese pizza or pepperoni pizza? so you hate pepperoni pizza.
Jeremy (14:36.814)
I'm sure it won't be done.
Jeremy (14:44.504)
Cheese pizza.
Yep, it's the worst. It's stupid. And and you're stupid for liking it.
Andrew Adams (14:49.032)
Right, I mean I I I just like pizza. I don't care if I mean if I had a choice, I would take pepperoni. But that doesn't mean I don't like cheese pizza. And and I think this is the type of argument where people like you said, it's either it's either one or the other, black or white. And I think it is more prevalent online, and I think it happens less when it's an actual
discussion conversation in person as opposed to typing words on a page.
Jeremy (15:24.718)
When when we look at the internet's contribution to this, I think it is a a repeating it's a cycle of I come online, I have a belief. I identify content that relates to that belief. Social media, in an effort to give me content that I want to engage with, reinforces that belief. And I exist in that in that hole.
Andrew Adams (15:48.446)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (15:53.517)
And it's really difficult to come out of. So when I am confronted with content that is counter to what I've been experiencing and believing and has been reinforcing because what we say th think, say, hear, do becomes our identity. Now there's something in front of me that is counter to that. And if I say, because so much of my identity has been wrapped up in this is correct, right, the best, etc.
Andrew Adams (16:21.107)
Yeah.
Jeremy (16:21.784)
Whether we're talking about martial arts or any other subject, it's human nature. When I'm confronted with something that is different, if my identity is wrapped around my beliefs, then I don't just see something that is different, I see something that is threatening to my existence. And I will instinctively respond.
Andrew Adams (16:42.076)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (16:47.112)
Yeah, yeah. And I think that's where ego starts to show up in martial arts disc in discussions and stuff.
Jeremy (16:51.374)
Sure does.
Jeremy (16:54.946)
Yeah. Because when we when we believe that we are right, and everyone around us is telling us that we're right, because we train in a school that has the same instructor and the same material, and it's an echo chamber. And then the first times we break out of that, if we do.
Andrew Adams (17:09.321)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (17:21.538)
We're feeling pretty good. And then we run against some run up to s against someone else who thinks differently. And even if they're not, quote, better than us, they probably have some some skill somewhere that we don't. And you're like, well, they're pretty good at that. I'm not, I never thought of it that way. And ego doesn't want to let go. Ego wants to hold on. So what does ego do? Ego tells us we have to p punch holes in that.
We have to come up with reasons why it doesn't work.
Andrew Adams (17:54.62)
Yeah, as long as you're punching holes this way and not this way.
Jeremy (17:57.527)
Right, right. And deaf and and and never bend your wrist and never extend one knuckle or two knuckles and your thumb and and I I think the the only thing I believe we all agree on with regards to punching is don't put your thumb inside. Is that the only thing we agree on as martial artists?
Andrew Adams (17:59.209)
Sarcasm ever.
Andrew Adams (18:17.704)
Yeah. Yeah.
I I think so, because I've even seen and guys, if you're only listening, you're gonna miss out. But I've even seen debates on whether this finger should be this way or this way, right? By I I've seen debates on that. And there's some schools that do that. They will take their pointer finger and not curl it underneath. And by flattening that first finger, it allows this knuckle to move a little bit more. I've even seen debates about
Jeremy (18:35.159)
Andrew Adams (18:50.194)
position of that first finger.
Jeremy (18:53.88)
So, yes, we will debate anything and everything.
But how how do we how do we break out of this? How do we, as martial artists, because we can't make other people get better at this until we get better at this, right? We have to lead with example. So how do we improve this?
Andrew Adams (19:15.7)
I mean the biggest way is to continue to be open about stuff that don't think that your way is the only way.
Jeremy (19:23.54)
Here's my big rule. Don't feed the trolls.
Andrew Adams (19:24.936)
Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
Jeremy (19:30.174)
If trolls exist to garner response, because strangely enough, there is a dopamine response to someone replying to your terrible comment because it validates your terrible comment, which validates your opinion, which validates your ego and humanity. If you don't receive comments, you don't receive validation, you are more likely to change your behavior.
Andrew Adams (19:50.227)
Mm.
Jeremy (19:58.319)
To those of you out there on any subject that think you are saving the world by trying to convince the trolls.
You're not. Your one in 10,000 conversion is probably not even that high. To my knowledge, I have had one person ever, and and I don't do this anymore, but I had one person ever change their mind and tell me that they've changed their mind as a result of our conversation online.
Andrew Adams (20:29.084)
Hm, interesting. Yeah.
Jeremy (20:31.33)
But I've had plenty of people write to me as a result of this show, or people I've trained with or had conversation with in person, much more, many more in in person. Say, you know what? I like what you have to say. I agree with you. You've changed my mind, etc. So don't feed the trolls.
Andrew Adams (20:53.172)
Yeah, that's a good one.
Jeremy (20:53.816)
How else?
Jeremy (20:57.526)
You start with s with be open minded, yeah.
Andrew Adams (20:59.644)
Yeah, be be open minded, like being able to listen to others and let them know that you might have a differing opinion, but that you value theirs.
Jeremy (21:11.434)
I think I think for me, because I recognize I'm a weirdo, not just in the world of martial arts, but in the world in general. I've been a nerd from the beginning. And I think the the aspect of my personality that is mo has enabled me to do the most things is the fact that I have almost never been concerned with being right.
I've been concerned with learning. So I engage in a conversation with people because I want to learn. I want to understand their perspective. And something that through my 20s, I had a really hard time with because mo I didn't understand that most people weren't like that at that at that point. So I would ask people, okay, well, tell me why you think that. And what they heard was, tell me why you think that, idiot. And I was genuinely saying,
Andrew Adams (21:41.32)
Hmm. Hmm.
Jeremy (22:09.89)
Tell me why you think that, because I want to understand your perspective. And so now I come at it from a different perspective. But the goal is still, I want to learn. And I would suggest that if martial arts is important to you and you're having a conversation about martial arts with another martial artist, accept the fact up front, their beliefs don't have to have any impact on your training. Go back to the six freedoms of martial arts. You have the right to train however you want, et cetera. Even if it's your instructor.
Andrew Adams (22:12.562)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeremy (22:39.34)
If you get to a point where your instructor says, this is, and you don't want to, you can go elsewhere. So if someone is is poking holes intentionally or accidentally in how you train, so what? Find the find the opportunities to learn what you can from the conversation. Even if that education, that learning is about how you don't want to act in a martial arts conversation in the future.
Andrew Adams (22:45.438)
Hmm. Yeah.
Andrew Adams (23:07.218)
Mm. Yeah. U I you know, there's one other aspect that I wanted to bring up, which is you know, another reason why martial arts conversations go nowhere is that
Jeremy (23:11.182)
Mm.
Andrew Adams (23:18.224)
And and I'm I'm specifically referring to online. I'm not talking face to face, but person A will put up a video of themselves doing subject A, whether it's application or whatever, it doesn't matter. Subject A. And someone will come into the conversation wanting to talk about something completely unrelated. The one we always talk about is, that would never work in real fight. Well, he's not doing a real fight. Like he's not trying to describe
Jeremy (23:47.456)
No never nobody ever said that if you get attacked in a bar that you should do MP kata. I've never heard anyone say that.
Andrew Adams (23:48.136)
Be a real fight.
Andrew Adams (23:53.427)
Yeah, you know, and so and I think so often people get involved in a air quote conversation by talking about apples and oranges. And if they could just agree to talk about the same thing, it could lead to a better conversation. But because people don't want to do that for various reasons, the conversation doesn't go anywhere.
Jeremy (24:18.52)
This is where in organized debate, the beginning of any debate involves agreeing on the essentially the rules of engagement. You know, we're we're agreeing on definitions, or, you know, it it is pre-framed what the format of the discussion is and length of time. And when you get to this part, you can't bring up new points, but you can respond to something that the other person said earlier on. And
Andrew Adams (24:26.868)
Set of rules.
Jeremy (24:47.936)
Again, I think that your example, it goes back to the energy requirements of nuance. If I am, even if, even if I'm an actual martial artist, and you know what? What's really disappointing, I have seen people that we know, I've seen people that we have respected trash others online. And here's here's what's happening. They're looking at someone doing something that they don't know how to do or cannot do.
Or can no longer do. And their own ego says, okay, I have a choice here. I can either accept that I cannot or can no longer do this thing. Or I can create a worldview where that is not valuable and that saves me from the blow to my self-esteem.
Andrew Adams (25:18.302)
Mm.
Jeremy (25:44.279)
So I go on and I trash it. That wouldn't work. That's not how you do that. or you know what my favorite one is? Someone does a something impressive, you know, a a jump spinning whatever. And the comment is about the tiniest minutiae. your right hand came down a little bit while you were doing that jump 720 kick.
Andrew Adams (26:13.3)
Yeah.
Jeremy (26:15.074)
You know, because once I I punch holes in it, my self esteem is intact.
Andrew Adams (26:23.23)
Yeah, that happens a lot.
Jeremy (26:23.276)
And so we so we should probably, as we, as we wrap here, remind people how other people train does not impact your training. It does not impact your value to yourself, to your school, to your martial arts community. Your skill is your skill, regardless of anyone else. No one has ever, no one should ever say.
Andrew Adams (26:34.782)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (26:54.07)
You don't deserve your rank because your rank exists in your own school. And if your instructor awarded you that rank based on what you have done, then you have earned that rank. Comparing, comparison is the thief of joy. Don't get wrapped up in this. If you haven't checked out the six freedoms of martial arts, we have an episode on it. I don't remember the number, but you can also find it if you go to whistlekick.com. We have a series of videos as well as the the full episode.
Andrew Adams (27:08.915)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (27:24.192)
linked there that you can check out.
When you recognize that what you do as a martial artist is entirely about you
And you can embody that. It allows you to let go a lot of what other people say.
Don't feed the trolls.
Andrew Adams (27:43.762)
Yeah, don't feed the trolls. Love it.
Jeremy (27:46.401)
All right. Thanks for being here. Thanks for joining us. How do we do? What do you think? What did we miss? What do you disagree with? What do you agree with? We want to know. And the best place to tell us is at our Facebook page, Martial Arts Radio. It's great.
And you can jump over there because we drop every single episode there just as a reminder, but also a place for conversation. If you want to get every episode as conveniently as possible, sign up for the newsletter at whistlekickmartialarts radio.com. We're gonna drop you an email twice a week, because we drop two episodes a week. And you're gonna get an email that says, Hey, do you want the audio? Click here. Do you want the video? Click here. It's that simple. We're not gonna bombard you with other stuff. In fact, I don't think we've ever tried to sell anything on that on those emails.
We have other newsletters that you might want to join, but it's free. Unsubscribe anytime. We're not going to harass you. We're not going to sell your information. We've never done that, nor would we ever. And if you want to get a hold of us, Jeremy at Andrew at Whistlekick.com for comments, feedback, or topic or guest suggestions. Anything else to add, my friend?
Andrew Adams (28:57.158)
No, it I think in rel relaire blah blah blah blah blah. In relation to or in regards to the conversation, no. but make sure if you're on YouTube, check us out. Go to YouTube, YouTube, subscribe, hit the like bell, the button to subscribe notification. You'll get to see this other like last week I showed you what I carry in my pocket all the time. But this this is also an everyday carry item for me.
Jeremy (29:18.828)
Yeah.
Andrew Adams (29:22.44)
He's in my pocket all the time and you'll get to see what it is if you're on YouTube. That's all.
Jeremy (29:27.756)
I I like how And Andrew's everyday carry items are not my everyday carry items. Yours are are much friendlier than mine.
Andrew Adams (29:35.25)
Yeah, and and emotionally charged.
Jeremy (29:39.511)
Hmm, right on. All right, let's wrap here. Until next time, smile and have a great day.
Andrew Adams (29:45.876)
Train hard and have a great day.