Episode 1167 - Empathy, Trauma and Boundaries in Self Preservation with Tammy McCraken
Guest host Paul Coffey chats with Tammy McCracken, founder of 500 Rising, which offers impactful, groundbreaking education for women, developed by female experts.
Empathy, Trauma and Boundaries in Self Preservation with Tammy McCracken - Episode 1167
SUMMARY
In this conversation, guest host Paul Coffey chats with Tammy McCracken, discussing her journey into martial arts, the founding of her nonprofit organization 500 Rising, and the challenges surrounding self-defense training, particularly for women. She emphasizes the importance of finding a supportive training environment and the need for accessible self-defense education that goes beyond traditional methods. The discussion also touches on the societal constructs that influence women's perceptions of violence and their ability to engage in self-defense. This conversation explores the intersection of gendered behavior, play, and self-defense, emphasizing the importance of understanding early experiences and their impact on individuals. They also discuss the role of play in learning, the navigation of violence, and the need for empathy and boundaries in martial arts training. They highlight the significance of addressing the before, during, and after aspects of self-defense, particularly in the context of domestic violence, and stress the importance of education and creating a supportive environment for students.
TAKEAWAYS
The culture of the training center is crucial for long-term engagement.
It's important to interview instructors and students before committing to a martial arts school.
Self-defense workshops often serve as marketing tools rather than effective training.
Women often lack a baseline for play fighting due to societal norms.
Accessible training is essential for empowering women in self-defense.
Understanding the context of violence is key to effective self-defense education.
Women are often socialized to believe they cannot engage in violence.
The messaging around self-defense needs to be re-evaluated for effectiveness.
Creating a psychologically safe environment is vital for training.
Empathy can be a navigation tool but needs boundaries.
Teaching self-defense requires understanding the unique experiences of individuals.
The before, during, and after of self-defense training is crucial.
Education is key for martial arts instructors to teach effectively.
Survivors of trauma are the experts in their experiences.
Creating an invitation for students to share their experiences is vital.
Self-defense is not just about physical skills but also mental preparation.
Understanding the progression of abusive cycles is important in teaching self-defense.
CHAPTERS
00:00 Introduction
00:51 The Journey into Martial Arts
08:59 The Birth of 500 Rising
13:57 Understanding Self-Defense and Its Challenges
24:00 Teaching Nonviolent Individuals About Violence
31:59 The Impact of Early Experiences on Gendered Behavior
34:40 The Role of Play in Learning and Development
35:10 Navigating Violence and Dehumanization in Martial Arts
41:05 The Importance of Before, During, and After in Self-Defense
47:54 Teaching Self-Defense: The Before, During, and After
56:02 Addressing Domestic Violence in Martial Arts Training
To connect with Tammy:
www.500rising.org
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SHOW TRANSCRIPT
Paul (05:10.412)
Hello everyone and welcome.
To martial arts radio? What am I doing here? So I am your guest host, Paul, and the good folks at Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio dot com have extended a host seat to me. So we're doing something a little different. I
To encourage everybody to go to Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio dot com to check out all of the other episodes that the fine people have. For those of you who do know me, for those of you who don't know me, welcome. I've been a guest on the Whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. I have taught at Summit. I will be there again next year. I am the host of Free Training Day Upper South through Whistlekick. You can also go to Whistlekick.com and check out any of the equipment.
equipment or other offerings that they do such as the tournaments and the free training day events. Free. and so now let's get into it. I sit down with my friend Tammy and we're gonna have a conversation. Tammy would you like to introduce yourself to the people?
Tammy (06:44.777)
Sure. So my name is Tammy McCracken. If you're looking for me online, it's Tammy Yard-Mccracken, but that's a lot to say every single time. So I tend to drop the middle one. And I am the founder and CEO of 500 Rising. We are a nonprofit organization based in the US, but we're international in the work that we're doing. And I have a very varied background in
the martial arts side of the house, which we can unpack later, but that's that's essentially who I am. And I really appreciate the opportunity to have a conversation with you today.
Paul (07:25.228)
Brilliant. Thank you. so the first question that I ask is the only question that's really kind of directed to the non-martial artist. This conversation with you may be a little different though. The first question that I ask is for the non-martial artist that's that this pops up on their feed, they're thinking about starting martial arts, but they haven't yet. What advice do you give them?
Tammy (07:47.192)
That's a great question. It's the the short answer is look for a training center that you can get to that is accessible to you and and from there begin to make decisions about art and style.
Paul (08:00.617)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Paul (08:08.908)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (08:09.043)
Because we tend to come bad at come at it the other direction, which is I want to train in Aikido, I want to train in Krav Maga, I want to do BJJ. And then we start looking for those styles and dojos. And if they're not close or they're not around at all, then that starts to shut down our thinking. So fundamentally find a place that's accessible to you. Then
Paul (08:11.828)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (08:16.726)
Yes.
Paul (08:36.981)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (08:38.135)
Go take that trial class, but do more than take the trial class. Interview the people, interview the students, interview the coaches and instructors. Take a step back. Ask if you can come back and just observe. Pick up on the vibe of the place as well, because the culture of the training center is probably more important. And I'm gonna piss a lot of people off when I say that.
Paul (08:45.044)
Mm.
Tammy (09:06.399)
It's probably more important than the style that you're learning and to a degree the qualifications of the instructor. And I say to a degree because they should have some qualifications. They should know what they're doing. They should be accomplished in their art and have some clue on how to transmit that information to other people. But again, you know, if you're
Paul (09:10.976)
Yes.
Paul (09:17.62)
Mm.
Tammy (09:31.626)
researching and you've been online and AI is answering your questions for you, etc. You're going to get information that says, look for these really high-ranked people and look for it in this way. And that is such a tiny piece of the training experience that I come at it from the other end. Is it accessible? Can you get there? Will you be able to attend? Can you afford it?
And because if those things are giant question marks, then even if you sign up, you're gonna end up in short order pulling back from the training experience. And then the culture of the gym is instrumental in long-term training and being able to comfortably be be in that space and to be able to allow coaches and trainers and instructors to challenge you. Because if it doesn't feel like a place that is
psychologically safe to accept those challenges, then it's it's not a great place for you to be.
Paul (10:34.732)
Brilliant, brilliant answer. And I always like try to give the caveat of if you're following that advice, also give yourself permission to be wrong. It's okay to do all of those things, to get into a school and to be there a month and realize that it's the wrong month wrong place and just have to start over. That is okay. Mm-hmm.
Tammy (10:45.055)
yeah.
Tammy (10:55.821)
Absolutely a hundred percent because I think also, and this goes to the business side of things, is look at a a lot of martial arts centers from a business standpoint, at least in the US, because it's different in other parts of the world, are contractual. And it's, you know, it's so they can manage cash flow and they know what money's coming in next month and all that, because they have bills to pay. And and and so I get that side of it. But how ironclad is that?
Paul (11:06.828)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (11:11.84)
Yes.
Right.
Tammy (11:23.923)
Is there a space for you to be able to say a month, six weeks in, this is not, this is not working for me? And then discover, well, you have to buy out your contract to the tune of several thousand dollars. so that's something for folks to be mindful of as well. It's like what's the business structure of this place and what's what is the permission for us to, you know?
Paul (11:39.158)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (11:51.178)
make make our own choices and to work from a place of agency. And I can give you a great example. When my kids were my kids are grown and when my kids were training when they were younger, there is an eight year spread. My oldest one and myself were both training at the same Taekwondo studio. This is a very long time ago. And the little one had been, you know, the tag along, especially when the older one had class. And so and they started their littles program.
Paul (11:54.998)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (12:20.127)
At I think three, which is insane to me because it's just herding cats for 45 minutes. That is all that is. And but he'd been watching his brother and me and blah blah. And he's like, okay, I want to do this. When I am three, I'm this is what I want for my birthday. So I signed him up, added him to the family contract. He got his tiny little ghee, was the cutest thing on the planet, and you know, got him all
Paul (12:27.498)
Right.
Tammy (12:47.297)
dressed in the white belt tied and shoved him into his first class. And they did this thing around your birthday. They got to break a board for their birthday. And so he had just had his birthday. And so they, you know, they let him break his board. So we're leaving, like, yay, you did the class. Yay, I'm so excited. And and he said, I did Taekwondo. I was like, yes, you did. I'm so proud of you. Right.
Paul (12:54.368)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (13:15.117)
And as it turns out in his thinking, that was it. He was done.
Paul (13:16.748)
So good.
Paul (13:27.717)
He he wanted to do it. He did it.
Tammy (13:29.887)
And convince yeah, I he I wanted to do it, I did it, I broke the board, and that is Taekwondo in a box. And convince a three-year-old that you just signed a contract for a year and he has to go back. Like that's it's not gonna happen, right? So I went back to Angus, he's the the head of the school, and I went, so guess what I just learned? Is there any way
Paul (13:42.996)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy (13:59.104)
We can renegotiate that add-on contract. And he was great. He's like, yeah. He goes, A, that's hysterical. And B, yes. But there are a lot of places that will not do that. And so now what do you do? Right. So
Paul (14:12.492)
Absolutely.
Paul (14:16.362)
No, that's very good and that's a point that I I didn't think about because I've never worked in a school and I don't intend to run a school that has contracts. So it just never something that came up. Okay. How did you get started in martial arts?
Tammy (14:31.731)
That is kind of how I got started in martial arts, i in a sense. So the the oldest child was let me give a deep backstory here. was a pretty athletic kid, but also had very, very severe, like infant onset childhood asthma back when there were no controller medications for children. so FDA, none of that was approved. And
Paul (14:57.533)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (15:01.215)
We we spent a lot of time in emergency rooms. So it became a factor of keeping him athletic, but him having control over his exertion. So that meant no group sports. And I think at about he was like six or seven, we pulled him completely out of group sports where we lived at the time was very rural, put him in a little gymnastics place that happened to be there. That was great for him. Then we moved.
And that wasn't an option. And so the martial arts became the next option for him as far as something where he had control of his own body. And if he needed to step off and he needed we needed to manage the inflammation, we could do that. And so we got him involved. Initially, he started out in karate at a YMCA. And that program folded, and then we transitioned over to Taekwondo. And then I wanted
Paul (15:33.26)
Mm.
Tammy (16:01.087)
I I'd always wanted to do something in martial arts and I'll the the why I didn't is I'll give you guys that here in a second, but has something to do with age and all the gray in my hair. But but this was an opportunity. I was like, all right, I can we can do this together. And, you know, and this is a you know a shared bonding, mother-son thing, especially, you know, when boys start to hit that age of like, you know, talk to the hand mom. and
Paul (16:09.964)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (16:18.347)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (16:27.787)
Right.
Tammy (16:28.757)
And that is how I officially got involved because when I was a kid, I am in my 60s, so that's an important piece here. When I was a kid, I was watching the original David Carradine Kung Fu series. Shows you how old I am. And I was like, I want to do this. And I took it on myself to go through the phone book. For those of you who don't know what one of those is, it's a book full of.
Paul (16:42.236)
Nice. Nice.
Tammy (16:56.385)
Very thin pages with all the numbers of everything in your area. That is how you found places and looked for some a a place. And in the the city that I lived in at the time that I was growing up in, there were like like two, maybe, three, period. And when they heard a girl's voice on the phone, 'cause I think it was probably ten at that point. It yeah, exactly. Yes. There was this like,
Paul (17:06.86)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (17:14.22)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (17:22.176)
Yeah, yeah.
Tammy (17:24.503)
You're clearly a girl. And the response I got was not terribly welcoming. And so I didn't quite know what to do with that. And I didn't, I didn't then press it with my folks of like, hey, I want to do this thing, because the cost was also would have been a factor for us at that point. So so that just got a giant pin in it, and I just watched David Carradine and, you know, wistfully longed for the day.
Paul (17:27.072)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (17:31.66)
Yeah.
Tammy (17:53.248)
Until I had a kid and got into it. So the rest of the journey is I did Taekwondo for a number of years. And I've done on and off odds and ends of Tai Chi, finding, you know, an instructor and all that is creates its own challenge. And then I did I I got involved, aggressively got involved in Krav Maga, became an instructor, been involved with that almost 15 years now. And
Paul (18:07.733)
So
Tammy (18:21.129)
And then along the way I've done some other things. I have a smattering of a tiny little bit of BJJ. I have some just generalized grappling in my background. And I trained, I guess loosely we would call it kickboxing. It was more of an MMA approach, but I trained with a guy for a couple of years, actually with an eyeball towards getting in the ring in the middle of my or early in my craft journey. And
Paul (18:30.764)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (18:39.37)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (18:50.739)
So that that's kind of in a nutshell. I have a little bit of judo and I have a little bit of a lot of things, but yeah.
Paul (18:54.366)
In a in a much time. Yeah. Right, right. Okay. Brilliant. normally we have people kind of plug the things that they do toward the end. Like because that just is the best flow for the conversation. But I feel like this is more of
a conversation around your why. So if you could please tell the viewer, listener, audience about 500 rising and what it is.
Tammy (19:20.685)
Mm.
Tammy (19:31.406)
Sure. And I will apologize. It's it's full-on fall where I live, and all of the fall things that make my nose run are doing their thing out there. so yeah, I like you know, the vast majority of women on the planet, I I have my own experiences from my younger days of of violent encounters and and through this whole martial arts journey.
Paul (19:37.236)
Mm.
Tammy (20:01.705)
Everybody out there, and you know, that's changing now. So if you're funded by this, recognize we're going back in time. Everybody out there marketed what they did as self-defense in some way. And and even when I started really investing in Krav, like, okay, this is the thing I'm gonna just this is where I'm at, all in, you know, I'll travel, I'll get the training, I'll certify, yada yada.
Paul (20:15.286)
Absolutely.
Tammy (20:31.153)
there's still that messaging, you know, this is self-defense. And the longer I trained, the more this sort of amorphous question evolved, w it where's the rest of it? Right? Where's where's all the other stuff that's supposed to be here? And and in that question.
Paul (20:34.326)
Yes, yeah.
Paul (20:48.628)
Mm.
Paul (20:53.802)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (20:58.679)
came from other places of background. So as a psychotherapist, I worked for very the latter half of my career. I worked almost exclusively with trauma survivors. And that was a full range of individuals from people who've been shot to blah blah blah. and then and then my my household is my spouse that retired after 33 years in varying levels of law enforcement. And so I I had a context of
Paul (21:09.524)
Mm.
Tammy (21:27.159)
There's there's there's a rest of it. Where is it? And I found a big piece of it when I started training with and then had the privilege of working with Rory Miller. But there was still there was still more. You know, it's like we're there's still okay, we're getting closer. And I had a moment, I watched an award acceptance speech by somebody who's a fantastic orator that I
Paul (21:40.404)
Mm.
Paul (21:44.585)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (21:57.036)
I don't care about the awards, but I care I like to listen to people who speak really eloquently. So I found their speech. I'm listening to it online. It was kind of at the height of the Me Too movement. And they were talking about this is this is the game changer as far as like violence against women and blah blah blah. Everything's gonna change. I was like, okay, I've been around a while. And you know, I hope it does a lot of good.
Paul (21:59.487)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (22:03.38)
For you.
Paul (22:15.916)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (22:23.713)
But as far as like magic wanding the stats, that's it's not gonna do that. We it needs something more. So I had a moment, I wrote a blog that thankfully nobody read during that season of my life. And and I just ranted about it. And it was tied to this like, there's there's more, like we're missing it in the physical arts side.
Paul (22:24.288)
Yeah.
Paul (22:27.828)
Mm.
Paul (22:44.875)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (22:51.959)
We're missing it in the social awareness and so you know, so s societal transformation side. We're like and they're sort of the Venn diagram came into view. I was like, we just we need to change how we're doing this if we're gonna make the impact that everybody wants to make. So I wrote this very ranty blog and a friend of mine who is a she's judo judo and jujitsu.
Paul (22:55.156)
Mm.
Tammy (23:19.733)
and brown belt, she's she reached out and she goes, Somebody should do something about that. I was like, yes, somebody should. And you know, you see where this is going, right? There was a finger being pointed.
Paul (23:30.442)
Yeah. Yeah. There was all there was only one person that could.
Tammy (23:35.854)
So and I was like, I I have zero time for this, nor have I any interest in it. And, you know, I still owned I owned a training center and you know, and she was good enough to not let go of it. And that's how we got here. And and the next important piece of that story is that it was just an idea, really. It was initially started out as the 500 Rising project. And a good friend of mine, also law enforcement,
Paul (23:51.936)
Mm.
Paul (23:56.854)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (24:00.405)
Mm.
Tammy (24:04.725)
Trainer and Judo and Jiu Jitsu, a multi-degree black belt guy up in Minnesota, said he worked for a small police department at the time. He's like, if you put together a curriculum around this idea, the police department, the chief is interested in having you come up and train some of the officers. And that is why we developed our first course. Honestly, otherwise it would still just be a good idea.
Paul (24:32.78)
That's awesome. So what's missing?
Tammy (24:36.551)
what's missing? So what's missing is on one side of the explanation, the acad all the academic. And by that I mean a for instructors and for women as well in general, but for instructors to understand everything that surrounds the context of self-defense. And
Paul (25:01.612)
Mm.
Tammy (25:02.781)
And and that's sociologically, it's psychologically, it's culturally, it's in concepts like how unpaid labor is gonna have an impact, like it big picture. What's also missing is back to the marketing conversation of this is martial arts is self-defense, is that
Paul (25:13.652)
Mm.
Paul (25:22.646)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (25:26.023)
So s sociologically in can you hear the dog in the background? Okay, I'm so sorry. it's we live semi-rurally and every time somebody comes by they're like, Hey, we need to do something about this. sometimes the programs will filter it out. So anyway, the so the other thing that's missing then is in that marketing conversation, what and I am
Paul (25:29.79)
It's totally it's fun. It's fun. It's totally fine. Mm.
Tammy (25:55.308)
guilty as charged on this one a hundred percent. When we first opened our Croft Training Center, we would do women's self-defense workshops and they had a little bit of that invitation like, hey, come train with us, come train with us. So and there was a there was something that was off about it and I couldn't quite put my finger on it. It actually took somebody else asking, Well, how many women are signing up as a result of it? And I said, Well, not very many. And them saying, Well then you're doing it wrong.
Paul (25:57.078)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (26:03.892)
Right, right.
Paul (26:09.836)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (26:16.213)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (26:22.164)
Mm.
Tammy (26:25.471)
And I was very resistant to that feedback, but it took me a while to figure out why. And what we're doing wrong is that we call those things self-defense workshops, and they're not. They are marketing tools to join the training center. And that's not bad or wrong, but it's not a self-defense course because we cram all the showy, flashy stuff in there and some basics.
Paul (26:30.667)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (26:37.542)
Mm. Right.
Paul (26:43.21)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Paul (26:52.716)
Mm.
Tammy (26:54.699)
And at the end of two hours, everybody goes, this was really cool. And I can't I won't remember any of it. And that's kind of the point, right? Now you'll now you'll come train with us.
Paul (27:00.406)
Right.
Paul (27:04.203)
Right.
Tammy (27:05.495)
But everybody calls those self-defense workshops. And and so the other thing that's missing is we're doing it wrong. We're not teaching self-defense in a way that it's accessible because why aren't all the women who come and you have 40 women in workshop, why aren't they signing up? Okay, let's look at the unpaid labor obligations. Let's look at their the impact that has on their time schedule. Let's look at their resources, let's look at
Paul (27:09.344)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (27:19.132)
Mm.
Tammy (27:34.306)
Whether or not they have the financial capacity to participate. Let's look at, you know, and and then we get the answer. This is why they're not signing up. And when we started shifting how we were teaching self-defense for women locally, we started to get some interesting data, which was like a lot of times it was like a mom would come with a daughter who was getting ready to go off to college, right? So, and we'd ask, like, have you ever done anything like this before?
Paul (27:40.864)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (27:59.553)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (28:04.097)
And this is a soft stat, kind of making the number up based on personal experience. About 80% of the room would have the older women say, I took a self-defense workshop or class when I was in college or from the local police department 20 years ago. And you know, want my daughter to do this before she goes off to school. A workshop. That's it.
Paul (28:19.294)
Mm.
Mm-hmm.
Paul (28:31.765)
Right. Right.
Tammy (28:32.843)
Right, because that's what our culture, our society's our societal structures support. So then the other thing, if we're doing it wrong, is how do we create accessible training? So it has to be a workshop or a short course that isn't pulling all this random stuff from our systems that we love.
Paul (28:41.278)
Mm.
Paul (29:00.5)
Mm.
Tammy (29:00.715)
and shoving it down their throats, knowing they're not gonna remember any of it, and not giving them any of this a sociological background that they need. Like how do we change that? And yeah.
Paul (29:09.066)
Hmm. Right.
That's brilliant and I'm about to go on a little bit of a terror. I apologize to everybody. okay, so so first of all, I don't teach self-defense because I feel it disingenuous for that same reason. Like you come to me for four hours and then I give you this and then you're gone. So I now teach self preservation and I don't do it via workshop format. It's a clinic. So it runs the course of it's it's it's it's one class and it runs for eight weeks, twelve weeks. And so that
Tammy (29:18.269)
Go ahead.
Paul (29:43.935)
I feel like if I can get them locked in for the eight weeks or the twelve weeks, I can at least give them some sort of understanding. We also teach the the concept of it it it it's so intricate because most other martial artists are not talking about how there's emotional violence and then there is the violence of like opportunity. Like somebody is just hungry and they need a wallet so that they can eat. so and and those violence it has to be navigated differently.
Tammy (30:06.519)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (30:13.838)
and then the the other thing is on my podcast, I have what has been labeled the difficult question. And I'm gonna give it to you, but I'm gonna give it to you a little bit differently because I think that it's really, really important. The difficult question starts with an omission. I've been doing martial arts for 33 years. The omission is as a lifelong practitioner of martial arts, I recognize I'm equal parts sadistic and masochistic, but I'm in the minority. So most of the people that come to most of
Tammy (30:14.732)
Yep.
Tammy (30:41.709)
Yeah.
Paul (30:43.798)
people that come to me, including the the mostly women that come to my self-defense self-uh preservation clinics are not that so then the question that I usually ask is how do we teach a nonviolent individual to speak the language of violence when it's necessary?
But the question that concerns me in this conversation is how do we teach that nonviolent female student the ability to teach the language of violence, the ability to navigate that violent situation when it's necessary, when they don't have the resources, when they don't have the time in the space because maybe they're being full-time worker, full-time mom, they're pulled in the million different directions, they don't get the downtime to go on.
wine three nights a week at the jujitsu gym, how do we give them the information that they need so that they can navigate society? Go at
Tammy (31:38.507)
Yeah. Okay. So this is where you're gonna have to pull me back in because I'm off I'm gonna go here.
Paul (31:43.996)
Okay no no no no no you are able to run as free as you want. And and and for anybody that knows me, I reeled it in. That was as quick as I could have done that.
Tammy (31:55.33)
That is that is the one of the questions. I love that you're asking that question. because it's it's questions over time that I have gotten from instructors all over the world of, you know, how do I get her to hit, how do I get her, or when she says in a workshop, like and I have had plenty of women say this to me as well, in like, you're doing a basic striking drill or whatever, you know, hitting pads. And you'll hear like
Paul (32:01.549)
Yes.
Tammy (32:25.311)
Yeah, but I can never do that to a person, right? So it's and so instructors like, how do I how do I get them, meaning the women, to cross that threshold? And the answer is pretty simple, but it requires a depth of game for the instructor that some people can be a little bit r resistant to. And that is give her the data, the the hard facts.
Paul (32:28.02)
Mm.
Paul (32:34.22)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (32:45.086)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (32:49.868)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (32:55.307)
That tells her that she is already A wired for it, B probably has it at a biological level more accessible in some respects than men do because of sociological things. And that her literally her neurobiological structuring sets her up to be remarkably capable of it.
Paul (32:55.52)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (33:03.052)
Mm.
Paul (33:10.507)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (33:23.159)
But all of the messaging from the social constructs says the opposite. And she's been marinating in that information since the moment she was born. So if we give you, like, here's some, this is just this is the data. It creates an invitation for her to begin to go, okay, how much of the way I'm relating to this as in I could never.
Paul (33:23.22)
Mm.
Yeah.
Paul (33:40.18)
Mm.
Paul (33:44.98)
Mm.
Tammy (33:51.31)
And especially because when we're talking about violence against women, you know, I I'm sure this is a statistic you're very familiar with, is that 70 to 90 percent of actions of violence are perpetrated by somebody she knows, right? So when she says I could never, there's a whole nother layer here. So if we say all of that is something that you were invited to believe about yourself, it is not.
Paul (34:01.725)
Yeah.
Paul (34:06.25)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (34:16.841)
As a member of our species, particularly female member of our species, it's not fact.
Paul (34:22.612)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (34:24.277)
And so here are the facts. And now you get to begin to deconstruct those messages and figure out how you want to be a person of agency in your life.
Paul (34:40.544)
Okay, so
two points to continue to nerd out on this because I can't stop myself is one one and I'm gonna do one and then I'm gonna let you talk about it. Okay, and then we'll circle around to two maybe we'll see where my ADD takes me. but I so when I was doing one of my self preservation clinics, I I had a new round that started like three months ago and at the end of that new round one of the new ladies that came
Tammy (34:53.963)
Okay.
Tammy (34:57.355)
Ha ha ha
Paul (35:12.118)
She said, that's so very interesting because I realized at the end of this class that I don't have a baseline for play fighting.
Tammy (35:22.613)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (35:24.298)
Because being raised a girl in this society. No, don't fight. Don't do that. We don't do that because we're girls. And I was like, man, that really hit home. But then I like turned it into kung fu, right? As we do as martial artists. And I like, It's really interesting that humans are the only animal
Tammy (35:27.127)
Yep.
Paul (35:44.709)
on this planet that I can observe that doesn't have a baseline of play fight. All other animals are play fighting as soon as they can. You know, you see cubs, you see birds play fight, you see squirrels play fight, but every animal that I can observe, and as we make kung fu, we observe the animals. You know, so it's very weird that we don't have that baseline for our female
Tammy (36:18.975)
Yeah, w and and you're right, from my i yes and I guess and sociologically, yes. particularly, you know, looking at generations, it's beginning to shift. Girls are being more and more supported and encouraged to engage in sport, particularly things that have that combat background like wrestling and you know, even the like flag football in the US.
Paul (36:24.188)
Mm, yes.
Paul (36:32.33)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Tammy (36:48.741)
you know, I I get I get dinged every time I'm overseas when I say football. They're like, what are you talking about? Are you talking about American football? Like, what are talking about? So I've and now I'm very self-conscious. Yes. but you know, and and so girls are getting more there's more space for them to play. There's more social media has a lot of downsides, but some of the upsides are there's more conversation around
Paul (36:58.26)
Or proper football, is what they say.
Tammy (37:16.053)
What research is telling us, if we put young girls in sport early on and what that means for their health later on, and inviting girls to do things that with little boys, and I raise sons, so I can definitely see this. We say, you know, they're like, I'm scared, mommy. You're like, okay, let's give it a shot and see what happens. With little girls, I'm scared, mommy. Like, it's okay, you don't have to do that. Right? We don't invite little girls to
Paul (37:39.752)
Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Tammy (37:44.778)
press into those places of discomfort. So, and that's beginning to change, but that's gonna, we've got generations to go, right, before this becomes the norm. What is also, here's the end, is that humans do play very naturally in the the young of our species. and but what happens is play gets
Paul (37:50.838)
Yes.
Paul (38:05.044)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (38:11.937)
be it becomes guided and coached and in that coaching it becomes a post hoc activity. So as a species, the research tells us that it's the only human behavior that is not post hoc. It's not, I do this for this. And if we leave it alone, then then we we would see more
Paul (38:14.432)
Mm mm.
Paul (38:36.158)
Okay.
Tammy (38:40.029)
Of that, what happens if we wrestle? What happens? What happens if I push you down? Like what happens, right? So, but but we very quickly begin to coach play and it loses that piece because now it becomes very goal-directed. And it's it's one of the things, yeah, and this is if you guys are l listening and you think, here she goes, she's gonna plug the organization again. I'm I'm plugging the research, is that
Paul (38:40.072)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (38:46.444)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (39:06.676)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (39:07.319)
We we encourage and invite instructors and we give them tools to use that, to use play, not as an this is just silly, but like how we're wired as a as a learning mechanism for understanding, you know, physical movement and the geometry problem between me and another person and all that. because we still have it, but it's become it's a very rusty.
Paul (39:14.676)
Mm.
Right.
Paul (39:23.336)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (39:36.365)
Aspect of our capacity as a creature.
Paul (39:40.109)
Mm, excellent.
And the other point ADD did not win is the question so the question came from my own personal work in martial arts is that I I teach a lot of disenfranchised people. I teach in a lot of rehab facilities and I teach one in one community center we teach a a class that is specific to the LGBTQ community. And so like I was teaching one day and they were like, Yeah, but like how do you do it, Paul.
Tammy (39:45.591)
Ha ha ha.
Paul (40:12.422)
You're a really nice guy, so how do you hurt somebody if you have to hurt somebody? And I was like, Well, as a martial artist, you know, I'm talking to somebody and they're my friends, but then if we're sparring, if we're fighting, a switch happens and they're no longer that. They're just kind of a body. They're the geometry problem that I have to work through. And one of the students said, That's dehumanizing. As a victim, I've been dehumanized, and I don't want to do that to somebody else.
And so that like that like objectively changed the way that I have to frame it up. Because it's like, no, you don't have to do that. But like that's part of the why we are teaching people more to navigate violence than we are teaching them to you know, it's a storm to be weathered, it is not something to be won. So and I your thoughts on that.
Tammy (41:03.861)
Yes.
Yeah, hundred percent. It is a what a beautiful metaphor. It's a storm to be weathered, not something to be won. And that is a radical shift in thinking from our martial arts background because everything, right? Everything is about winning even when it's not supposed to be, right? It it's always in in sparring, like who got who got the best shot in, you know? and even to the systemized training where we take rank tests and we pass our veil, that's
Paul (41:14.332)
Thank you.
Paul (41:22.021)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tammy (41:36.256)
winning or losing, right? Contextually. So and and I I really appreciate as you've shared your experience because there's a lot of similarities. I am a two by four upside the back of the head person. I learned best when you hit me really hard because like I okay maybe now it's time to move a little differently. Maybe it's time to not lead with my head. May maybe you know and
Paul (42:04.32)
Yeah, guilty as charged. Like yes.
Tammy (42:05.989)
Right. So it's but to your point also, most people that are coming for self-defense for that experience, that's either not what they're wired for, or it's not on us to turn them into us. And, you know, because which leads us to that conversation of of dehumanization. And one of the things that
Paul (42:24.244)
Mm.
Tammy (42:32.991)
we've introduced it was not part of our original curriculum. It's evolved because of things we've learned as we've worked with people is a conversation around empathy needing to be boundaried because particularly for women, but for anybody who's been margin lives in the margins of our culture and our society, that empathy is becomes a navigation tool. It's a a way of de-escalating other people and like
Paul (42:40.257)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (42:47.796)
Mm.
Paul (42:55.648)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (43:02.541)
Okay, I'm gonna manage you, I'm gonna join you in your conversation, you know, all the things that go with de-escalation and conflict management, that people who are are marginalized for a vast array of reasons have learned intuitively to survive. And that empathy then also becomes a threshold that's problematic. Is it it's okay to put boundaries around it? In fact, it needs to be boundaried. And then we can't just give that lip service or should not. We should talk about waste.
Paul (43:02.796)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (43:17.844)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (43:31.597)
play and work with that. And inside of that, then this is all we're doing. This is all we're inviting you to consider is that in this moment, you're, you know, this is this is a bad situation. So your options are bad and even worse, right? So bad is but and then we want to take bad and even worse and we want to invite the opportunity for a little better, right? So we can we can weather this storm. And
Paul (43:33.653)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (43:44.396)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (43:55.028)
Mm.
Tammy (43:58.572)
What is it going to take for the situation to go to the it's a little better now? I have better as an option instead of just bad and even worse. It's going to require that I can, as a human being, I can put some boundaries around my empathy instead of seeing you as this person that I know or this person that I work with or socialize with, that you are you are still person. And as a side note,
Paul (44:14.348)
Yes, yes. Yes. Mm-hmm.
Paul (44:21.388)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (44:24.107)
You know, if I if I can get somebody to that place where they can go, you're just a toy right now, that's a right, that's a huge win. But we need more time, then sometimes we have to to do that. So if I can just get you to in this moment put on the scales my my natural instinctive empathy for you as a human being and the desire to not become what others have been to me, then
Paul (44:29.088)
That's a you won. That's a whim.
Tammy (44:52.737)
I have to put that on the scale against my right to personal agency.
And so that's where you don't have to I don't have to see you as a toy. I can just balance that against my right to personal agency and then go, okay, I can put some boundaries around this empathy right now because my agency wins.
Paul (45:04.628)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (45:12.844)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy, that's brilliant and I'm stealing that. Sorry. Stolen. It's already it's already it's alright. so to paraphrase some of the work of a good friend of mine, his name is Randy King. I don't know if you're familiar with him or not. He Yes?
Tammy (45:18.322)
Feel ha ha feel free.
Tammy (45:35.774)
He's one of my rider dies. We work together a lot.
Paul (45:39.233)
Brilliant. the time the Timeline of Self-Defense, the Before, During, and After is a book that I think every martial arts school should have. but I am interested in talking to you about that equation of before, during, and after. I am of the opinion that us as martial artists, we spend a lot of time on the during.
Tammy (45:40.748)
Yeah.
Tammy (46:05.089)
We do.
Paul (46:05.964)
And we don't spend it as much time on the before, a little bit of time on the before, most martial arts schools. The after is completely neglected, not thought of at all, dealt with at all. What do you mean after we won, we did the thing? I wanna know for you. For me, if I have to get like a very basic generic split of it, I think that somewhere in the neighborhood of forty to fifty percent is before.
And I think that w the during of as far as like what we should do curriculum wise. So forty to fifty percent.
is the before. My during should be 20, maybe 25% at best. And then the remainder after the that should be like as far as a martial arts instructor. I think that there are other people, therapists and the like doctors that handle the after, you know, because you have the do you do have the triage of after a doctor needs that. You do have the the mental scarring of after and a therapist is more equipped for that. Martial
Arts has helped me with my after, which is why I include that as like, you know, it's a twenty percent, twenty-five percent. So I just wanted like your perspective on the percentages and then I'm gonna make you break some of it down.
Tammy (47:25.941)
Okay. Are we talking about instructors or are we talking about students?
Paul (47:32.948)
We're talking about instructors. I I every all the material that I do, I feel it important to educate and I'm educating my f my students that watch this cast, but I'm also educating fellow martial arts instructors so that we can do better.
Tammy (47:34.796)
Okay.
Tammy (47:50.368)
Okay. So because instructors, as you eloquently said, that the during is all all the all the things. It is it's why we trained in the first place. It's why we ranked. It's why we became instructors and coaches. It's, you know, it's a really good day when I get on the mat and I get hit. Like, yes, here we go. This is right. It's
Paul (48:03.496)
Right.
Paul (48:07.53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Paul (48:15.412)
Mm. Right. Right.
Tammy (48:19.691)
You know, this is where we're a little twisted, right? So that that is the sum of our everything. So I'm a little bit less generous with the percentages because of that. Like that's the context behind which I'm gonna put you at 10 to 15 percent for the during. And then, you know, this is I don't do math well on the fly, so I'll say 10 because it makes the numbers easier.
Paul (48:22.39)
Hmm.
Paul (48:26.411)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (48:36.94)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (48:48.065)
the ten percent on the during and then I want to see mm sixty percent on the before and then thirty percent on the after for sure. yeah.
Paul (49:03.434)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's brilliant. So what do you think just a martial arts instructor that's watching this, that doesn't know you, hasn't really thought about this, this conversation has sparked this idea with them. What is one thing that they can do to teach the before better?
Tammy (49:27.411)
Educate yourself and I know that's not a great answer. It's like well what does that mean? read. And read like I I know I I okay, so i I've so many friends
Paul (49:29.364)
Mm.
Paul (49:41.232)
I I had to I had to laugh because my students here read a book a lot. Like anyway.
Tammy (49:48.736)
And it and it's just not like when I first started shifting the instructor development program at the gym at the Croft School I owned, which is this is a long time ago, and I'm like, you guys need to read these three books and you need to give me a write-up. And I got these blank looks, like, I'm sorry, what? And it's like, no, no, no, for real. I'm not kidding. Like, you know, we're not, we're not going to school for the PhD thing like you did. I'm like, I don't care.
Paul (50:02.453)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (50:16.543)
It's not relevant here. You're still reading. so reading, and there's some key titles that are out there now. So obviously Randy's is the most recent one, and absolutely read that one. Go back and read Rory's stuff, go back and read particularly facing violence, if you only have to pick one. Read Comcom on the other one. As a martial artist, go back and read the first one, go back and read Meditations because it's that comparison.
It's also if it's I've wor I worked with Rory for about 10 years, so probably y he doesn't mind getting thrown under the bus. So I have to say that because it's gonna sound otherwise disrespectful. he he wrote that book in anger, like wow, you know, just all this stuff and this is bullshit and you know people aren't comparing and he is a world-class martial artist if first i in his day for sure, and
Paul (50:46.228)
Mm.
Paul (51:03.06)
Mm.
Paul (51:11.306)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (51:14.261)
And so he had the legitimacy of saying, this is martial arts. Cool. Have fun, go. And this is not self-defense. Anyway, so that's what meditations is fundamentally is. So read those and then and then read more. So read Invisible Women or The Invisible Woman or Priato's book. It's relatively new. Read title.
Paul (51:26.315)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (51:36.02)
Mm.
Tammy (51:44.29)
why men behave badly or men behaving badly. British author, I will warn you, it is the driest thing on the planet. It is not short. It's research, research, research, research. so you'll have to have something more exciting to read alongside it to walk away from it's like I have a good friend of mine who's who also loves this book and she's like, I don't know how somebody could take such an interesting subject and make it so freaking dry.
Paul (51:59.51)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (52:13.697)
But his point was I think he was just wanted it to be about the data and the research. so he and that so those two are the other two things that I would put in there in the top of the list at this point, outside of Randy and Roy stuff. And and then there's a whole bunch of other ones out there. We have a reading list in our in our closed organizational group that's got like 65 titles on it now. So those are the
Paul (52:19.38)
Mm.
Paul (52:29.204)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (52:42.561)
Those are the top ones I would say.
Paul (52:44.82)
Love it. How can people teach the during better?
Tammy (52:54.251)
I'm I'm filtering here because I I I want what I say to be an invitation and just there's gonna be things that will sound not invitational here, but pay attention. Recognize who you have on the mat. Learn
Paul (52:56.819)
Ha ha ha.
Paul (53:01.098)
We don't want to offend.
Paul (53:13.865)
Mm.
Tammy (53:19.689)
Not just how to teach people where to put their foot and how to make a fist, but learn the non-verbal communication that you're seeing in your students. Recognize what's there. And for the love of anything that you hold holy, listen to the students, listen to the women on the mat who say, That's not working for me, and do not answer that with, well, it will once you do it right.
Paul (53:39.84)
Mm.
Tammy (53:50.71)
And that like that's the that's my opener and I know it's strong, but that's like if you can get that down, the rest of how do we do that part better is going to come fairly easily.
Paul (54:00.033)
Mhm. Absolutely. Absolutely. How can they teach the after better? We can start by teaching it.
Tammy (54:09.395)
Get educated. Well, yes, start by teaching it. But but before you do, before you open your mouth, actually get educated. Because unfortunately, this is the downside of social media and you know, pop culture television movies prior to that is where a lot of us get our education from. Whether we realize it or not. You know, we do there's some really interesting data and research on film and television and how it
Paul (54:30.1)
Mm.
Tammy (54:39.337)
actually shapes culture and society. there was a and I'm I I don't have any of the names or titles, they escaped me, so I apologize for that. There was a documentary that was done maybe in the 80s. I'm probably wrong by a whole decade. But it was it was done by a group of people who had contacts and and people in their lives.
Paul (54:42.197)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (55:07.927)
Who were survivors of the Holocaust. And that how much they never, they just didn't talk about it. And so there was not much out there about it. There weren't, we didn't have Holocaust museums. We didn't have, we didn't have any of that. And in this documentary, they talk about how we weren't even using the label the Holocaust to mean that. And so then
When this original documentary was done, and then there's this follow-up conversation, it was after that that the label started being applied to the entire human experience from that era. And so it shaped, right? So culture movies, TV, they shape our culture. And unfortunately, we without even recognizing it, we use that as our educational platform. So get authentically educated. Talk to
Paul (56:01.153)
Mm.
Tammy (56:05.566)
If you have create connections in the legal defense world, create connections in the investigative world, people who are trained well trained, special victims investigators, people who work as forensic medical personnel, understand what the it somewhat immediate after, like the first six months, is actually going to
Paul (56:11.916)
Yes.
Paul (56:17.9)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (56:24.693)
Mm.
Tammy (56:34.914)
be like four people. Then get yourself educated, read some books, and I would say obviously do more than that, but start with reading some books. Understand the difference between acute stress response and post-traumatic stress disorder syndromes, because they are not the same thing and they get all lumped together. Understand what a normal reaction to a high impact event really is and that there's lots of them. And like
Paul (56:37.396)
Mm.
Tammy (57:04.68)
Get all of this information in your bones. One, so that when you teach after as part of your curriculum, you know what you're talking about academically. That's so important because you're gonna get questions. If you teach this stuff, you're gonna get, well, hey, in my situation, and your depth of game needs to be able to handle that question, including being able to say, you know what, I don't know the answer to that. But
Paul (57:24.726)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (57:32.94)
Yes.
Tammy (57:34.121)
I have resources. And that's where go back. No, you know, I've testified in court as a self-defense expert. I've t you like so I've met these attorneys, I know who these people are, and have picked their brains. Go talk to the people who investigate these crimes when they are reported. Go talk to the forensic medical folks and what that process is like. And if you have to get your education from a television series series.
Paul (57:54.9)
Mm.
Paul (57:59.35)
Mm.
Tammy (58:03.872)
At this point, I would say, watch the pit. And I can't remember if it's season one or season two, but where there's a whole for I know, there's a whole forensic sexual assault section through the series. And it it's pretty accurate. so and and I've been so that's an if an area I'm very familiar with. I have been
Paul (58:11.05)
What?
Paul (58:19.027)
Mm.
Paul (58:24.245)
Okay.
Tammy (58:32.436)
alongside somebody who's gone through that forensic s medical avowal, like been sort of their person. I have friends who are forensic nurses, you know, think so it's it's I have some context for is this how this goes when it's done well. and it's pretty accurate. Now there's some pieces that are also missing, but it's if you have to get your education from television, that one will be a small piece that could be useful.
Paul (58:44.844)
Mm.
Paul (58:50.336)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (59:02.604)
Brilliant. So my my closing I I did a rough outline of things that I wanted to cover and my closing is selfish because
Of course it is. I well, I I started podcasting for a couple of reasons, but one of the reasons is the same reason we start teaching, which in part is selfish. I don't care what everybody says. Every martial arts instructor starts because we want to help people, fine, I'll give you that. Very humble of you. Congratulations. But also because we can learn more. If I throw a technique at a dozen people, I see a dozen different responses and I can pick up on all of them and it helps.
Tammy (59:14.742)
It's your podcast.
Tammy (59:36.878)
Yep.
Tammy (59:41.203)
Yep.
Paul (59:43.167)
Helps me compute the work faster. I'm selfish. Just in part. Maybe it's like 10%. Maybe some days it's 50% because I'm really trying to work through something. Selfish. Same reason I started the podcast was in part was like, hey, I got these things that I'm working out. I can throw them to other intelligent people and they can give me the answers, and then I have the answers. So
I'm starting the groundwork for writing a class that is loosely currently titled No TISS, Capital N, Capital O TIS. And the the the tagline for this class is self-preservation for domestic violence, which we talked about earlier very, very briefly about how it is in fact different. But if you could just say what are a couple of things
Tammy (01:00:24.046)
Mm.
Paul (01:00:33.934)
That we as martial arts instructors could give students to help navigate the domestic violence. And I the it's that's so layered, that's such a big question, it's so subjective. Is there the financial component? Because oftentimes they're staying around because financially they can't get out. You know, is it manipulation? Is it not as bad as the last situation? So I'm staying because it's not as bad. So
Tammy (01:00:44.312)
Yeah.
Tammy (01:00:59.608)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Paul (01:01:04.158)
And I'm sor also sorry that that's such a big question. We could have talked about that for an hour, but
Tammy (01:01:07.594)
It's massive. Yeah. It's a massive question. And the fact that it's being asked is is the first that's the when. And everybody should be asking that. I gotta I do the most of the social media for the organization. And we started our Instagram account mostly to have a place to be slightly less professional than on Facebook. and you know, so
I did a a series called it this past summer pretty bank pretty pretty face pink belt. so pretty face pink belt dojos and training centers, which you know all that that implies, but and I got I got some hot responses from some of the reels and which
Paul (01:01:43.89)
Okay. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I'm I no I'm picking it up. Picking up.
Paul (01:01:57.748)
Mm.
Tammy (01:02:00.483)
Brandy has been telling me for years, if you don't start pissing people off on the social platforms, you're not doing it right, sister. So he's been my coach on that. so anyway, I got some really hot responses. And this one guy stands out for me. He was outside of the United States, and just on a tear that there's zero difference in teaching self-defense to men and women. Nothing, like everybody has the same problem. And he went on and on and on.
Paul (01:02:09.132)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (01:02:31.212)
Huh. and it was like one, I just don't want to go down this path with you. And then two, you just provided with me with a massive amount of material for the next several rears reels. So thank you. but it's it's recognizing that it is it is a unique situation compared to how we normally consider the concept of the violent encounter. And it's
Paul (01:02:40.444)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:02:49.59)
Mm.
Tammy (01:02:57.78)
So if you're going to, if it's gonna be part of the conversation, obviously the education side is huge. I would read control, absolutely another British author. She's, you know, if you haven't yet, right, it's at it's just brilliant. And being able to break down the way that she has done, and what I love about what she's done, it's very concise, is here is here is what this looks like over time. And it's not just a cycle.
Right. It ha inside the cycle, it also progresses. And and so it's important data of just because rinse and repeat doesn't and I can serve I can manage this because as you said, it's not as bad as the last one, doesn't mean that that cycle is going to stay static. It's going to progress in some way. I can't tell you how exactly, but there's worse yet to come.
Paul (01:03:32.236)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:03:47.838)
Mm. Yes.
Paul (01:03:56.873)
Always.
Tammy (01:03:56.951)
I think creating I I know use this invitation a lot, and my my team over in Europe in particular is started to make fun of me on this, but it's creating the invitation for people to consider that one, and this is paramount, however you have navigated and survived anything that you have been in, you did it well. Nobody survives wrong. Absolutely bottom line.
Paul (01:04:23.476)
Mm.
Tammy (01:04:25.888)
Nobody survives wrong. And that's important because what will happen is that when we start having these conversations and we start working on physical skills that might mirror something they've been through. I and I've had women come up to me and say, I'm so glad I was in this class because I had this situation and it looked like that. And now I know what I did wrong. It's like, hold on, hold on. That we first of all we have to destroy that conversation because you did zero wrong because you're standing here talking to me.
Paul (01:04:46.58)
Mm.
Paul (01:04:51.724)
Absolutely.
Tammy (01:04:55.658)
So in that domestic IPV conversation, it's how you create the context around what you're teaching. It's the invitation that you create that says the fact that you are here is the win. And then understanding that you get to choose for your highest and greatest good. That may not look like what I think it should be, but you have to choose that every single moment you're in that situation. And I tell you.
Paul (01:04:55.948)
Okay.
Paul (01:05:10.132)
Mm.
Paul (01:05:23.724)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (01:05:24.846)
To tell a story on myself many years ago, I was over in Eastern Europe. I got sent over by the martial arts organization I worked for because these guys are doing some really cool stuff with women and so forth. And I'm watching an opening conversation around a women's self-defense workshop and watching because it's being translated because I don't speak Czech. So he said a couple things that I was like, hang on, I have a problem with that. And and mostly it was
opened my eyes up on some cultural differences. but one of the things that he said that they that they did, and I in the US I have a problem with this because there's all kinds of legal ramifications, so I don't recommend you do this, but they would provide doctor's notes for fake, obviously, for women who came to their self-defense series.
Paul (01:05:57.664)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:06:03.574)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:06:10.218)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:06:15.262)
Mm.
Paul (01:06:23.444)
Mm.
Tammy (01:06:24.012)
Because they were under because in a coercive control relationship, well, where were you? Where'd you go? What'd you do? And what'd you spend that money on? And I was like, okay, we can't do that over here. like the legal ramifications are just yeah. But but that's an interesting take because what it did is it reflected they really understood the context of
Paul (01:06:38.828)
Right.
Paul (01:06:48.908)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:06:52.982)
Mm-hmm.
Tammy (01:06:53.016)
The lives of the individuals in those relationships. And they were trying to create accessibility. So that's how do I, how do I make the training accessible? How do I set the vibe to use a very unprofessional term of the experience that is an invitation for you to be wherever you are at? How do I, how do I build enough rapport with you that I can say things that
Paul (01:06:58.624)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:07:04.15)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:07:08.62)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:07:15.146)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:07:20.373)
Mm.
Tammy (01:07:23.36)
might challenge how you think about yourself and your relationships and recognize, and this is an instructor thing, recognize that if there is a person, because it doesn't just have to be a female, but largely statistically right, it's women, who in the space who is in or has experienced intimate partner domestic violence, they are the experts in the room.
Paul (01:07:25.932)
Mm-hmm.
Paul (01:07:49.588)
Mm.
Tammy (01:07:52.169)
They are the experts in the room on that experience and what it takes to survive that. And I think that's one of the big mistakes that we tend to make. Like you say, we're there because we want to help people. And we have our own bias on what better looks like. And we have to be very careful about that.
Paul (01:08:10.06)
Mm hmm. Mm-hmm. Brilliant. all of that's useful. All of it is useful. All of that's useful. Tammy, this has been a wonderful conversation. Where can the people of the internet find you?
Tammy (01:08:14.998)
Is that any of that useful?
Okay, 'cause that was kind of a ramble.
Tammy (01:08:27.888)
sadly I am all over the internet. I you know, it's just again, person of a certain age, right? So we our website 500rising.org and there's a bun a bunch of information on it. And then obviously we're on Facebook, 500 rising. I am on Facebook under the Tammy Yard McCracken side of the house. we have an Instagram account.
Paul (01:08:34.592)
Yeah. Yeah.
Tammy (01:08:51.98)
We have a baby TikTok account mostly because I like the editing tools on TikTok. It's probably not our best platform. I think we've got four hundred followers, yay. but you know, it'll it'll do. and so we're that's where we're we're fairly easy to find.
Paul (01:09:04.618)
It'll do.
Paul (01:09:10.284)
Okay, brilliant. so I I'm gonna end this show the way that I end mine and steal part from what Whistlekick does. So I wanna I I wanted to give my thank yous. before that I wanna give my thank you to Whistlekick. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. This was wonderful.
Check out Marshall Whistlekick Marshall Arts Radio dot com. Check out whistlekick.com for all of the good work that the team puts on. Hopefully I'll see you at Marshall Summit or at one of the events. Please say hi. You don't have to take my session, but I would love to have you.
We're gonna end with some words from you, but before that, the way that I end my show. and also if if if you like hearing me talk and my perspectives when I'm talking to people, Keep Kicking Podcast is my podcast. You can find it on YouTube and Spotify. I think
all of my guests, Tammy, first of all for your time. I know time is a precious commodity that we have far too little of, and I thank you for yours. But secondly and more importantly, and I double down for a guest like you who have helped has helped inform so much of what I am going to carry out into the world. I thank you for this conversation, for being a part of my martial arts journey, whether you like it or not. You have folded into my my 33 years experience. And I cannot j legitimately cannot thank you enough for that.
Being a a trauma survivor and doing the work of helping others navigate and survive trauma, any tools and resources that I can get is very much appreciated. Thank you so very much. I do want to thank everybody that watched, listened, some combination of I hope you got something out of it. And now, Tammy, your final words.
Tammy (01:10:51.8)
Yeah.
Tammy (01:11:01.902)
Wow. Well those are so hard. you know
Paul (01:11:05.664)
Yeah, always.
Tammy (01:11:11.894)
I would say this, that at the at the core of who we are as creatures, at the at the end of our lives, whenever we reach hopefully very gray years
Paul (01:11:20.5)
Mm.
Paul (01:11:27.852)
Mm.
Tammy (01:11:29.782)
The data is telling us that you know people survive that period of life better when they can look back across the life and go, yeah, that was well lived. And living a well-lived life meanings means finding places in our lives where we we do things that are a little scary, that we live in a way that's a
Paul (01:11:40.948)
Mm.
Tammy (01:11:57.538)
bolder than we would otherwise choose to. And and so that's, I guess, you know, final words is like find in your own way the place and space where you can we can you can do things that feel a little bold and a little off the hook for yourself.